Peugeot 208e 50kWh

unkel

That curve gives you a hint of what an automotive giant like Volkswagen can do once they spend a little bit of money in a certain area. I'm holding onto my shares

I'd love to see that graph with cold batteries because charging a cold battery can make a huge difference.

I am surprised to see the Model S SR so bad but obviously this is down to the smaller battery.

I can't wait to see how the id.3 performs.

It's one thing that really makes me appreciate the Rex is seeing the charging profile especially charging a cold battery can be quite irritating.

It will also be interesting to see what Hyundai come up with 800v tech which they say will be 2021 but Covid could delay this.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

I am surprised to see the Model S SR so bad but obviously this is down to the smaller battery.

Not so. That graph is a bit dated now. Back then the SR+ was software limited to 100kW max (just to give the far more lucrative LR AWD and P models another edge)

Since then this has been increased to 170kW

ELM327

Worth noting that the graph discriminates against Teslas
They are amperage limited at a 175kW charger.

Using an Ionity charger, higher charge curves are possible on all Teslas versus 175kW

KCross

unkel wrote: »

It starts throttling very quickly. You only get the 100kW for a very short while. Still it charges better than any other EV for that sort of money. Which is a bit pathetic (2C for just a very short while) in 2020 while cars like Ioniq could do close to 3C prolonged back in 2016

How did you calculate 3C?

Isnt the Ioniq a ~32kWh battery and averages low 60s during its charge... so about 2C as well?

It max's at 70kW so still only a tad over 2C at its best rate?

unkel

Ioniq can charge at 70kW (proven, on existing real life chargers, not quite the 80kW it was claimed initially, maybe just in theory) and has a 28kWh battery, so I guess about 2.5C

All these years later, no other car except the Teslas can do that. No small feat. In fact the C ratings for cars seem to get lower and lower for some reason. Very strange as there is no reason why battery manufacturers have suddenly needed to take it easy. No major warranty claims on batteries from any car

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Ioniq can charge at 70kW (proven, on existing real life chargers, not quite the 80kW it was claimed initially, maybe just in theory) and has a 28kWh battery, so I guess about 2.5C

All these years later, no other car except the Teslas can do that. No small feat. In fact the C ratings for cars seem to get lower and lower for some reason. Very strange as there is no reason why battery manufacturers have suddenly needed to take it easy. No major warranty claims on batteries from any car

Might be due to internal resistance due to the need for more kWh, something has got to give in battery design currently.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Might be due to internal resistance due to the need for more kWh, something has got to give in battery design currently.

New Teslas can charge at over 3C. The other companies just can't build proper batteries, or are way to conservative with the rate they let the car charge

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Ioniq can charge at 70kW (proven, on existing real life chargers, not quite the 80kW it was claimed initially, maybe just in theory) and has a 28kWh battery, so I guess about 2.5C

It doesnt have a 28kWh battery though.... thats the usable portion. The figure that counts for C-rate is the total capacity and thats 31-32kWh (I think) so closer to 2C.... much the same as the e208 which peaks at 100kW.

In any case, the only figure that really matters is average charge rate over a charge cycle. Max rate and c-rate are irrelevant really.

unkel wrote: »

All these years later, no other car except the Teslas can do that. No small feat. In fact the C ratings for cars seem to get lower and lower for some reason. Very strange as there is no reason why battery manufacturers have suddenly needed to take it easy. No major warranty claims on batteries from any car

Must be the energy density and the ability to get that heat away. Tesla can do it because they have a comprehensive cooling system at every cell.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

It doesnt have a 28kWh battery though.... thats the usable portion. The figure that counts for C-rate is the total capacity and thats 31-32kWh (I think) so closer to 2C.... much the same as the e208 which peaks at 100kW.

In any case, the only figure that really matters is average charge rate over a charge cycle. Max rate and c-rate are irrelevant really.



Must be the energy density and the ability to get that heat away. Tesla can do it because they have a comprehensive cooling system at every cell.

Yes but the Ioniq maintains 70kW up to 77% SOC

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes but the Ioniq maintains 70kW up to 77% SOC

True. Thats why I said...

"In any case, the only figure that really matters is average charge rate over a charge cycle. Max rate and c-rate are irrelevant really."

Anyone know the charge time 0-80% for the 208 ?

unkel

Look at the clip I posted.

Markcheese

ELM327 wrote: »

At least Ioniq 38 has a few more KM to begin with but , yeah, the ioniq28 is very hard to beat without paying tesla money.

What was the "secret " to the ioniq 28 ? Or the reason that Hyundai went away from it ?

unkel

Markcheese wrote: »

What was the "secret " to the ioniq 28 ?

Combination of a few things. Ultra efficient drivetrain and best in the world aerodynamics, which made it possible to use a very small battery (the most expensive bit of an EV), so they were able to sell it at a reasonable price. In Ireland, after our subsidies, it was about the same price as a similar size well specced diesel car (but with near zero running cost and maintenance and very low depreciation)

And because of the above, it was the first affordable EV that had a reasonable range (of about 200km)

Combined all that with the very quick charging (under any circumstances), which meant the small battery was not even a limitation if you wanted to do long distance travelling (as long as there was a reasonable charging network)

Black_Knight

Markcheese wrote: »

Or the reason that Hyundai went away from it ?

I'd be of the thinking that the 28 was a bit aggressive in its approach to charging. Perhaps in a few years we'll start to see ioniq 28s with degraded batteries due to these high rates of charge. Just a thought though, and given Ireland's lack of chargers able to deliver these rates I don't really see it affecting our batch. Hyundai perhaps with more test data from the 28 realised all this and changed the tech for the 38.

Though I believe the 64kona charges at good high speeds, so that pokes a big hole in my theory.

Mickeroo

Black_Knight wrote: »

Though I believe the 64kona charges at good high speeds, so that pokes a big hole in my theory.

The Ioniq 38 has the exact same charging curve as the Kona 38 if I'm not mistaken.

Black_Knight

Mickeroo wrote: »

The Ioniq 38 has the exact same charging curve as the Kona 38 if I'm not mistaken.

That's why I specified the kona 64

Kramer

Black_Knight wrote: »

I'd be of the thinking that the 28 was a bit aggressive in its approach to charging.

I think there's a far higher percentage of cobalt in the Ioniq 28 battery than would be acceptable today. This, I reckon is the secret sauce .

zg3409

Black_Knight wrote: »

I'd be of the thinking that the 28 was a bit aggressive in its approach to charging. Perhaps in a few years we'll start to see ioniq 28s with degraded batteries due to these high rates of charge. Just a thought though, and given Ireland's lack of chargers able to deliver these rates I don't really see it affecting our batch. Hyundai perhaps with more test data from the 28 realised all this and changed the tech for the 38.

Though I believe the 64kona charges at good high speeds, so that pokes a big hole in my theory.

28kWh Ioniq was forced air cooling, as in a big fan, while the kona is cold liquid cooled with air conditioning which I assume performs better and is better for battery.

I think the kona and 38kWh Ioniq use a different brand battery, and charging rates may be restricted by manufacturer of battery warranty passed on to vehicle manufacturer. As in if the batteries fail left and right they claim replacements via warranty with battery maker. Thus battery maker insists on charging speed limits and restrictions at low and high temperatures. They also have mileage limits and I think Hyundai specifically excluded taxi use. (daily fast charging likely). Larger batteries are likely to degrade slower as they are unlikely to cycle low to high regularly when compared to tiny batteries.

ELM327

Markcheese wrote: »

What was the "secret " to the ioniq 28 ? Or the reason that Hyundai went away from it ?

Cost.
The Ioniq 38 uses the same battery as the smaller battery Kona variant. And this is a system with much lower voltage.


The battery and the bms is set up in the kona to mirror the taper in the kona 64, just at a lower SOC (due to lower voltage at same amperage). They just dumped it in the Ioniq.


The Ioniq 28 was a standalone ev, and the best damn EV in town not from fremont!

ELM327

Black_Knight wrote: »

I'd be of the thinking that the 28 was a bit aggressive in its approach to charging. Perhaps in a few years we'll start to see ioniq 28s with degraded batteries due to these high rates of charge. Just a thought though, and given Ireland's lack of chargers able to deliver these rates I don't really see it affecting our batch. Hyundai perhaps with more test data from the 28 realised all this and changed the tech for the 38.

Though I believe the 64kona charges at good high speeds, so that pokes a big hole in my theory.

The kona 64 and kona/ioniq38 charge at broadly the same amperage tapering, just the pack voltage is different.

unkel

1000km test: 12:40

Not a bad time. The 50kWh Peugeot e208 was a little bit slower than the 28kWh Ioniq but that was mainly because the test was done in Norway with lower speed limits. Time would have been the same in Sweden

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPvF03X5Xe4

The time was far better than cars that are very ineffcient and / or extremely slow charging like Nissan Leaf 62kWh, Ioniq 38kWh, Zoe 50kWh and MG ZS

Black_Knight

unkel wrote: »

1000km test: 12:40

Not a bad time. The 50kWh Peugeot e208 was a little bit slower than the 28kWh Ioniq but that was mainly because the test was done in Norway with lower speed limits. Time would have been the same in Sweden

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPvF03X5Xe4

The time was far better than cars that are very ineffcient and / or extremely slow charging like Nissan Leaf 62kWh, Ioniq 38kWh, Zoe 50kWh and MG ZS

That drop off at 70%!! (watched last night so I could have early morning brain remembering that).

Old diesel

Black_Knight wrote: »

That drop off at 70%!! (watched last night so I could have early morning brain remembering that).

There is a sharp drop off somewhere.....

I suspect Peugeot have worked this out on basis that if you only need to put 70 miles into the battery to complete a journey.

Then you can do that relatively fast .

Drop off then to allow 90 kw charging AND durability co exist.

Decent charging set up for the price - just a pity it's heavy on juice on motorways at 70.

unkel

Old diesel wrote: »

Drop off then to allow 90 kw charging AND durability co exist.

High speed charging AND durability can co-exist for far longer than just a few minutes

See all Teslas, i.e. All cars with excellent reputation when it comes to battery longevity. My own car is 6 years old with 135k km on the clock and I still get 400km range. And it can still charge at >100kW

https://www.goingelectric.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=323&t=40845&start=10
this page shows drag values and frontal areas for various cars.
ID3 has values for frontal area of 2,36 Quadratmeter and 0,267 for CD.
It will be roughly as aerodynamically efficient as the smaller e208.
Maybe their motor will be better than the one used in the Peugeot but it has a slightly smaller battery.

This webpage indicates the ID3 is much more efficient than an e-corsa at 13,6kwh/100km and an e-corsa is basically a slightly more aerodynamic e208
https://efahrer.chip.de/elektroautos/vw-id3-45-kwh_20270

With 19,6kw being mentioned here I think it is safe to say the 45KwH ID3 will do over 200km on a charge at motorway speeds; https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_ID.3#cite_note-13

I can't ignore the e208. In GT trim it has every extra I want. ID3 might be better but I have to see if they'll offer the extras I want at reasonable prices and I still have no idea if the el-Born will be available to order in November which is the latest I can hold off ordering.

The signs aren't good with the ID3 pricing as they appear to want 600 euro for any colour other than grey and are hobbling the charge speed and acceleration on base model cars.

unkel

Efficiency is a non-issue for EVs really in terms of cost of electricity. Both a very efficient EV and a "gas" guzzling EV will cost near nothing per year in fuel (compared to depreciation, etc.)

It only becomes an issue when it has a bad impact on range...

Efficiency is important to me. My preference would be for an ID3 or El Born in Highline/FR trim with a smaller battery than one in Trendline base trim with medium sized battery pack so long as I can travel a respectable distance between charges with the smaller battery.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Efficiency is important to me.

May I ask why?

The most efficient of all EVs, the Hyundai Ioniq classic, costs on average about €100 in electricity per year on the night rate per 10k km. A guzzler like an Audi etron uses maybe about €200 in electricity per year per 10k km. The depreciation on either car would be many, many times that, making the fuel cost pretty much immaterial.

Mike3287

unkel wrote: »

May I ask why?

The most efficient of all EVs, the Hyundai Ioniq classic, costs on average about €100 in electricity per year on the night rate per 10k km. A guzzler like an Audi etron uses maybe about €200 in electricity per year per 10k km. The depreciation on either car would be many, many times that, making the fuel cost pretty much immaterial.

It's not fuel cost

He don't wanna pay 40k for an ID3 if a smaller battery ID3 for 30k and can do 200km @ 120 in all weathers, which the inefficient e208 cant

Be disappointing if 45kWh ID3 can't do 200km @ 120 year round

unkel

unkel wrote: »

May I ask why?

The most efficient of all EVs, the Hyundai Ioniq classic, costs on average about €100 in electricity per year on the night rate per 10k km. A guzzler like an Audi etron uses maybe about €200 in electricity per year per 10k km. The depreciation on either car would be many, many times that, making the fuel cost pretty much immaterial.

I wouldn't be paying for electricity on either. I just don't want to have to charge more than once on a 400km trip or do a 200km trip with only destination charging.

unkel

You will have to charge more than once on a 400km trip, unless you are prepared to stop for that one charge for a very long time. See the charging curve in Nylands clip that I posted. This car can charge fast at 100kW, but only for a very short time. Very disappointing for a 50kWh car in 2020, but it is actually better than most other new EVs...

I saw the video. I'm prepared to drop speed by 10 kmph. I don't expect miracles.

unkel

Out of interest, what is your 400km trip, how often do you do it and where did you plan to charge?

400km in any direction takes me a long way from where I'm based and brings me past the border in to 8 countries.

unkel

That's not much of an answer. Why are you so focused on limiting your trip to just one stop, even if that takes ages to get you to your destination? This car excels at stopping often for a very quick charge. It is not efficient and its charging curve is not great for fast charging up to a high state of charge.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

That's not much of an answer. Why are you so focused on limiting your trip to just one stop, even if that takes ages to get you to your destination? This car excels at stopping often for a very quick charge. It is not efficient and its charging curve is not great for fast charging up to a high state of charge.

I don't want to be explaining to my travelling companions how great EVs are while waiting for a charge at a desolate rest stop every other hour.

unkel

So you think your companions would be more impressed with having to stop for 90-120 minutes every 4 hours than to stop for 20 minutes every two hours? I'm making these figures up BTW. I'm only guessing. You are not being very forthcoming in what your requirements are. Which makes it hard for any of us to help you out or give you useful advice.

I'm looking for the longest range possible at the lowest cost possible to minimise the situations where I'm left explaining why the car is on charge.
If setting off from somewhere like Karlsruhe it would be nice to stop for an hour or two in Luxembourg City on the way to Brussels or in the opposite direction in Nürnberg on the way to Prague. I want the car to be recharging while I'm recharging, working to my schedule, not the schedule of the car.
This is how I and many people travel for leisure. It isn't about getting from Dublin to Cork in the fastest time possible seeing only motorway service stations along the way.
I'll probably have to go for a larger battery, I just don't want to and it won't change the way I prefer to approach trips.

unkel

Eh yeah. It would have helped if you clarified that. Most people here on boards.ie are in Ireland with needs that reflect their geo location. How was that not obvious to you?

You are looking at things in a very insular fashion. No manufacturer is building cars specifically for the Irish Market.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

You are looking at things in a very insular fashion. No manufacturer is building cars specifically for the Irish Market.

When we evaluate a car here, we tend not to use a 500km one way journey as a benchmark. Cork to Derry is a 488km journey. My guess is that there is a very small number of people who do that. It's far better to buy a car that suits you for 95% of your usage.

Your requirement of 500km with one stop and a small battery is quite frankly ridiculous, either find a model with a bigger battery or put up with the need for multiple stops. Sorry the e208 doesn't seem like the car for you.

In Ireland I break up my journeys in a similar fashion except the distances aren't as far. After about two hours I want a break so plan to stop in possibly interesting places I haven't seen before along the way.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

Sorry the e208 doesn't seem like the car for you.

...and yet I've been getting by with an EV that has a smaller battery and doesn't charge as quickly already.
The most important thing is range on a full battery, fast charging is secondary yet some posters here keep shouting that fast charging is the be all and end all.
Good night.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

...and yet I've been getting by with an EV that has a smaller battery and doesn't charge as quickly already

You left out the important part in that quote, I'll repeat the line for your benefit

Your requirement of 500km with one stop and a small battery is quite frankly ridiculous, either find a model with a bigger battery or put up with the need for multiple stops. Sorry the e208 doesn't seem like the car for you.

You introduced the figure of 500km. I didn't. I mentioned 400km.
You are changing the parameters of this discussion to suit yourself.

liamog

I ran Karlsruhe to Brussels through abetterrouteplanner using the eNiro and an e208.
e-Niro took 2 stops (26+17) for 489km, the e208 3 stops and 504km.

You can make the e-Niro do it in one stop by charging for an hour at the Ionity just south of Niederzissen.

Look the car either works for you or it doesn't, but throwing hypothetical long journeys at it is forcing a use case that is not ideal.
You'll tend to find recommendations on whether an EV is suitable on this forum turn into: buy one if that type of journey is only a couple of times a year, but if it's closer to once a month then it's probably too early.

I'd choose the e-Niro for the simple reason, more range and much faster and a larger car.
130 Hp vs 200 ? no brainer.

Lumen

Not sure it has been mentioned yet, but the e208 charges fast at low SoC but throttles hard at 48% (IIRC from the Nyland 1000km video). This means that in terms of long journeys it is ideally suited to areas that have relatively frequent high speed chargers.

If you can time it right this would mean getting another 100km of motorway range in maybe 20 mins, extend the usable motorway range from ~200km to 300km, which somewhat compensates for the thirst and smallish battery.

Though I think if I was going to do a lot of high speed driving I'd probably get a DS3 instead for the extra waftiness (Nyland described it as a French e-tron). I'd expect it probably does better over speed bumps too.