Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

lawrencesummers

Serbian wrote: »

I know you want to believe that you have great coaches in place, but that's a nonsense statement. Cheika is being replaced, and it isn't by Stephen Larkham.

Noted that he's not the head coach for Munster, but if you look at his record with Brumbies, it's not great. He only qualified for play-offs because Brumbies were the best of four very poor Australian club sides; the top team from each country is guaranteed a play-off place. They made the quarter finals in his last season in charge despite losing 60% of their games. It's just a fact that he was not good for Brumbies.

His work with Australia appears to be better, particularly in 2015 and 2019 when they put 47 points on NZ (albeit 34 of those points coming after Scott Barrett's red card), but to argue he's any better than unproven with potential would be to ignore his work to date.

You must have either missed or not understood the big complex scientific word I used that makes your post looks real stupid. Il give it to you again. And put it in caps.

Larkham WAS being groomed as Chiekas replacement.


( I highlighted it as well)

Interested Observer

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Is that the same larkham that was being groomed to be Chiekas replacement? Or a cousin?

So why isn't he Cheika's replacement then?

aloooof

Interested Observer wrote: »

So why isn't he Cheika's replacement then?

Cos he got a better offer

aloooof

Serbian wrote: »

I know you want to believe that you have great coaches in place, but that's a nonsense statement.

Are you saying the appointments of Rowntree and Larkham are poor appointments?

Last season, the Munster coaches (Felix in particular) were getting serious criticism. Fla and Felix (2 inexperienced coaches) have been replaced by 2 coaches with a huge amount of test level experience. This was widely regarded as a positive - an inexperienced head-coach surrounding himself with experience (much like Leo and Lancaster). And still it isn't enough for some people.

We're just over half-way through a season that started with a RWC. The internationals didn't return until the 2nd week in November. Rowntree himself didn't arrive until the last week in October. At least give them a chance.

lawrencesummers

Interested Observer wrote: »

So why isn't he Cheika's replacement then?

You missed the part where Chieka threw him under a bus and larkham moved to Ireland?

Serbian

lawrencesummers wrote: »

You must have either missed or not understood the big complex scientific word I used that makes your post looks real stupid. Il give it to you again. And put it in caps.

Larkham WAS being groomed as Chiekas replacement.

He was being groomed? Until he wasn't?

You're using the fact that he didn't get the job as evidence for the fact that he was being groomed for the job. That he didn't get.

Utter nonsense. You have no idea what you're talking about.

The Lost Sheep

snotboogie wrote: »

What do you have to support what you are saying?

It is not ignorant to say that the club game isn't producing players because I have given you extensive detail to back it up. Its easier to build up the clubs because the standard is lower, as is reflected by the poor transition to the professional game across Ireland. Its harder to get the schools up to standard but if you do there are greater rewards, as is evidenced by 25 years of professional rugby in Ireland.

coaching and refereeing and being involved in age grade rugby in one form or another for a long long time. Played in provincial finals.
It is extremely ignorant to say youths rugby isnt producing players. Many will talk of someone like Stephen McMahon as a Rockwell player or JJ Hanrahan as a Rockwell player when the fact is both moved in the season they were under 17s and there is many others like that.

The standard of club rugby at least the very best sides isnt that far off many of the schools sides. When a shannon-st Mary's u19 side won the all Ireland u19 title they played some of the Munster schools and beat them in friendlies. Same in other years as well.
Munster will not get many other schools to a status. If you think that's the way forward then name the schools who should be worked on and why those?

snotboogie wrote: »

Do you have any numbers for the players recruited after Junior Cert? Even still, a 3, 2 or even 1 year senior cup cycle is massively beneficial to a player.

This still doesn't change the fact that players developed outside of the schools system are an absolute minority in the professional game. Hoping the club game will pick up the slack is absolutely fanciful. I have yet to see any evidence that clubs can consistently produce professional players.

on my phone so cant. But there is always quite a few and it happened enough that the Munster schools committee put in a rule to stop some who moved from immediately playing schools cup rugby.

lawrencesummers

Serbian wrote: »

He was being groomed? Until he wasn't?

You're using the fact that he didn't get the job as evidence for the fact that he was being groomed for the job. That he didn't get.

Utter nonsense. You have no idea what you're talking about.

No.
Try reading it again.
Slowly.

Maybe get someone to explain it to you. Like a grown up.

snotboogie

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

coaching and refereeing and being involved in age grade rugby in one form or another for a long long time. Played in provincial finals.
It is extremely ignorant to say youths rugby isnt producing players. Many will talk of someone like Stephen McMahon as a Rockwell player or JJ Hanrahan as a Rockwell player when the fact is both moved in the season they were under 17s and there is many others like that.

The standard of club rugby at least the very best sides isnt that far off many of the schools sides. When a shannon-st Mary's u19 side won the all Ireland u19 title they played some of the Munster schools and beat them in friendlies. Same in other years as well.
Munster will not get many other schools to a status. If you think that's the way forward then name the schools who should be worked on and why those?

on my phone so cant. But there is always quite a few and it happened enough that the Munster schools committee put in a rule to stop some who moved from immediately playing schools cup rugby.

I still don't see your point or how I am being ignorant? It's absolutely clear that schools rugby produces nearly all of our players, again 21 of our 25 home grown players played Senior Cup. If anything the club players are falling further behind, before you had Munster club guys like Hayes and Quinlan starting for Ireland, now the few club players left struggle to get into the Munster 15.

durthacht

Deleted User wrote: »

Flannery laying it all out here. Unreal interview from him.

"Andrew Porter when he was leaving school, you don't need to be a ninja to see he was ready for test rugby".

Eddie O'Sullivan will soon lose his title as king of the crazy metaphor!

molloyjh

I could listen to Fla talk rugby for hours. Hes just so engaging. Its almost like sitting in a pub chatting on that show too which helps. I also found over Christmas that it suffers when he isnt there. Murphy and Trimble seem like great craic but it needs the level of seriousness Fla brings to the conversation.

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

I could listen to Fla talk rugby for hours. Hes just so engaging. Its almost like sitting in a pub chatting on that show too which helps. I also found over Christmas that it suffers when he isnt there. Murphy and Trimble seem like great craic but it needs the level of seriousness Fla brings to the conversation.

I wouldn't even say "seriousness", I think it's simply the vast "knowledge" that Jerry brings that makes him so engrossing. He can explain differences between players / coaches / systems / plays so well.

Mr Tickle

durthacht wrote: »

"Andrew Porter when he was leaving school, you don't need to be a ninja to see he was ready for test rugby".

Eddie O'Sullivan will soon lose his title as king of the crazy metaphor!

What a great sentence structure. I'm going to use that. "Ah sure you wouldn't have to be a pilot to bake a loaf of bread"" I'm no plasterer but it is definitely going to rain"

typhoony

125 schools participating in rugby in Leinster across 39 competitions, reading through the link below it seems they are highly professional in the organisation, doubt that there's the same commitment to rugby in munster...

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/at-a-glance-leinster-rugby-schools-committee/

The Lost Sheep

typhoony wrote: »

125 schools participating in rugby in Leinster across 39 competitions, reading through the link below it seems they are highly professional in the organisation, doubt that there's the same commitment to rugby in munster...

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/at-a-glance-leinster-rugby-schools-committee/

there is dozens and dozens of schools playing rugby at some level In munster be it o Brien cup which is the lowest grade competition at senior level. Level C. And same at junior level as well as u14/15 competitions. In addition to development officers running programmes in schools then having blitzes with a few schools involved to end the 8/10 weeks of sessions.

Riskymove

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

there is dozens and dozens of schools playing rugby at some level In munster

57 affiliated schools so just under half the number of leinster

but it is not just the number but how seriously rugby is taken at the various schools

Of the 57 in Munster many are Community Colleges etc. and while there are a number of fee-paying or otherwise traditional rugby schools there are more in Leinster (particularly in Dublin) where rugby is "everything" if you like

typhoony

Riskymove wrote: »

57 affiliated schools so just under half the number of leinster

but it is not just the number but how seriously rugby is taken at the various schools

Of the 57 in Munster many are Community Colleges etc. and while there are a number of fee-paying or otherwise traditional rugby schools there are more in Leinster (particularly in Dublin) where rugby is "everything" if you like

that's what I was getting at, even though it's a numbers game I would suggest it's not taken that seriously in a lot of schools in Munster.

slingerz

snotboogie wrote: »

Do you have any numbers for the players recruited after Junior Cert? Even still, a 3, 2 or even 1 year senior cup cycle is massively beneficial to a player.

This still doesn't change the fact that players developed outside of the schools system are an absolute minority in the professional game. Hoping the club game will pick up the slack is absolutely fanciful. I have yet to see any evidence that clubs can consistently produce professional players.

In cork you have 3, at best, participating schools. If you think all the players that come through CBC/PBC/Bandon started there on day 1 you are deluded.

snotboogie

typhoony wrote: »

that's what I was getting at, even though it's a numbers game I would suggest it's not taken that seriously in a lot of schools in Munster.

I posted the stats earlier, there are 9 schools in Munster who have at least one pupil who played rugby for them currently in either the Senior Squad or Academy. It's the same 5 or 6 schools producing all of the players:

snotboogie wrote: »

Hoping to add to the conversation by giving a breakdown of where the home developed players in the squad came up through. There are 25 home developed players in the senior squad and 16 home developed players in the academy squad. There are 9 schools with some representation.

PBC Cork have 6 senior squad players and 3 academy players. 3 players have Ireland caps for a total of 87 caps

CBC Cork have 4 senior players and 2 academy players, 3 players are capped for a total of 24 caps

Munchins have 3 senior players and 1 academy player, 2 players are capped for a total of 160 caps

Rockwell have 2 senior players and 2 academy players and no Ireland caps

Bandon have 2 senior players and 1 academy player, 1 player is capped for 3 caps

Ardscoil have 2 senior players and 0 academy players, 1 player is capped for 36 caps

Castletroy have 1 senior player and 0 academy players and no Ireland caps

Cresent have 1 senior player and 0 academy players and no Ireland caps

Glenstall have 0 senior players and 2 academy players and no Ireland caps

4 senior players came through the club game and 4 academy players came through the club game. 3 of these players are capped for a total of 18 caps.

19 of the 25 home developed senior players come from 6 schools, 10 of the 15 academy players come from the same 6 schools. Those same schools have 310 of the 328 home developed caps and 10 of the 13 home developed capped players.

The entire Munster development relies on 6 schools; 3 Cork (PBC, CBC and Bandon) 2 Limerick (Munchins and Ardscoil) and 1 Tipp (Rockwell) with a smattering of help from 3 more Limerick schools and the clubs. It's really the two Cork City schools and Munchins driving the whole thing. There are no schools developing players in Kerry, Waterford or Clare.

I would say on first glance that there is huge scope to increase the participation across different schools

snotboogie

slingerz wrote: »

In cork you have 3, at best, participating schools. If you think all the players that come through CBC/PBC/Bandon started there on day 1 you are deluded.

Could you break that down? How many players joined late on? Even still why would a player not benefit from a 2 or 3 year senior cup cycle?

Pogue eile

snotboogie wrote: »

Could you break that down? How many players joined late on? Even still why would a player not benefit from a 2 or 3 year senior cup cycle?

Nobody argued that they wouldnt benefit from it, but surely you can recognise the differnence between someone who joins a Rugby school in 5th year based promarily on his rugby ability developed in hte club sceme over someone who was developed in that School since first year.

snotboogie

Pogue eile wrote: »

Nobody argued that they wouldnt benefit from it, but surely you can recognise the differnence between someone who joins a Rugby school in 5th year based promarily on his rugby ability developed in hte club sceme over someone who was developed in that School since first year.

It doesn't change the point of the discussion though, two years with high level coaching playing at the top level between 16 and 18 years of age is invaluable to players. Players without this experience have poor outcomes. 21 of the 25 home developed current Munster Squad played Senior Cup. That is a damning statistic for those advocating for an increased focus on the club game for development. Aside from all of this, there has been no evidence presented that a significant number for the 21 players came to the schools game late. JJ Hanrahan is the only example given in the thread.

The Lost Sheep

Riskymove wrote: »

57 affiliated schools so just under half the number of leinster

but it is not just the number but how seriously rugby is taken at the various schools

Of the 57 in Munster many are Community Colleges etc. and while there are a number of fee-paying or otherwise traditional rugby schools there are more in Leinster (particularly in Dublin) where rugby is "everything" if you like

of course there will be fewer schools in Munster. Much smaller and there is far fewer fee paying schools with resources to put into the sport as well.
Rugby is "everything" in munchins and many other schools but they simply dont have resources like those in many other schools to put into the sport. Most coaches in many Munster schools are teachers which isnt necessarily case in leinster.

typhoony wrote: »

that's what I was getting at, even though it's a numbers game I would suggest it's not taken that seriously in a lot of schools in Munster.

the club game is very big in munster. Even though dome attend the rugby schools there is plenty in limerick who prefer to play for their club which is why year after year there is argument over access to players

slingerz wrote: »

In cork you have 3, at best, participating schools. If you think all the players that come through CBC/PBC/Bandon started there on day 1 you are deluded.

at the top level only but beyond that the kids are playing in many other schools as well as plenty clubs. And its same in limerick with muchins and other schools with kids moving to them as well

snotboogie wrote: »

Could you break that down? How many players joined late on? Even still why would a player not benefit from a 2 or 3 year senior cup cycle?

on my phone but quite a few in pro squad will have moved school from older players like jj hanrahan to the wycherlys and few others

snotboogie wrote: »

It doesn't change the point of the discussion though, two years with high level coaching playing at the top level between 16 and 18 years of age is invaluable to players. Players without this experience have poor outcomes. 21 of the 25 home developed current Munster Squad played Senior Cup. That is a damning statistic for those advocating for an increased focus on the club game for development. Aside from all of this, there has been no evidence presented that a significant number for the 21 players came to the schools game late. JJ Hanrahan is the only example given in the thread.

there is others not now playing with Munster who also did. Stephen McMahon. Donncha Ryan all moved. Munster cant rely on a small number of schools and a few kids moving to these schools does not help Munster in long term as it narrows the playing pool and doesnt develop the sport
The youths game is now stronger than ever some of top youths sides are extremely strong and competitive against some of the schools and this year has seen introduction of clubs select playing in games against the rugby schools as well.

snotboogie

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

on my phone but quite a few in pro squad will have moved school from older players like jj hanrahan to the wycherlys and few others

there is others not now playing with Munster who also did. Stephen McMahon. Donncha Ryan all moved. Munster cant rely on a small number of schools and a few kids moving to these schools does not help Munster in long term as it narrows the playing pool and doesnt develop the sport
The youths game is now stronger than ever some of top youths sides are extremely strong and competitive against some of the schools and this year has seen introduction of clubs select playing in games against the rugby schools as well.

I didn't include the Wycherlys in the 21 or 25 as home developed players because they went to school in Leinster. So we have 1 player identified out of 21 in the current squad who moved to the schools game late.

The Lost Sheep

snotboogie wrote: »

I didn't include the Wycherlys in the 21 or 25 as home developed players because they went to school in Leinster. So we have 1 player identified out of 21 in the current squad who moved to the schools game late.

they moved for senior cycle. They are home developed.

jacothelad

typhoony wrote: »

that's what I was getting at, even though it's a numbers game I would suggest it's not taken that seriously in a lot of schools in Munster.

I think the truth is that unless a school is large enough in it's pupil population, small schools cannot seriously play rugby.

snotboogie

jacothelad wrote: »

I think the truth is that unless a school is large enough in it's pupil population, small schools cannot seriously play rugby.

It's mostly money. There are plenty of schools with a big student population that don't compete, off the top of my head in Cork City Rochestown College and Douglas Comm both have around 700 boys and I don't think either even has a rugby team.

snotboogie

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

they moved for senior cycle. They are home developed.

Both were developed in the Leinster schools system. Do you have any actual stats on how many players moved from clubs to play Senior Cup?

The Lost Sheep

jacothelad wrote: »

I think the truth is that unless a school is large enough in it's pupil population, small schools cannot seriously play rugby.

not necessarily and what do you see as large enough a pupil population anyway?

snotboogie wrote: »

It's mostly money. There are plenty of schools with a big student population that don't compete, off the top of my head in Cork City Rochestown College and Douglas Comm both have around 700 boys and I don't think either even has a rugby team.

they dont compete regularly but there is plenty of clubs that those kids can play with and standard of club rugby and club competitions is more than good enough and getting better year on year

snotboogie wrote: »

Both were developed in the Leinster schools system. Do you have any actual stats on how many players moved from clubs to play Senior Cup?

partly developed. You ignoring all the time they worked in their club as well. On my phone and dont have access to computer right now but there is quite a few every year and has been rules put in to counter this in Munster....
Some of the guys who play pro rugby currently who moved include Stephen McMahon, donncha Ryan, Joey Carbury, Conor Oliver, Chris Farrell, jj hanrahan, Jeremy loughman. Plenty others as well.

jacothelad

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

not necessarily and what do you see as large enough a pupil population anyway?

It has to be large enough to have the requisite number of guys to fill the various teams and provide back ups when required and guys who are physically up to doing it. You can't have a rugby team competing at a serious level with not enough players who are robust enough to fill the difficult positions - e.g. the front row or compete with those who are much bigger and better physically developed. How many average 16 / 17 year olds in any given school want to do it, or are talented enough to do it and are safe to do it. It's not like soccer or cricket where really anyone can gave a go without much by way of jeopardy.