Galway's traffic issues

youngrun

Gwen Shallow Raccoon wrote: »

They were never a bypass, they were built in the city. The new one will be a high throughout, high speed motorway essentially well outside the city Centre. Totally different ball game.

New proposed bypass is right in the city bang through a lot of residential areas eg Newcastle, NUI Galway, Dangan, Menlo.

As the OP says Bus Lanes/corridors/Bus only roads and a Park and ride system that works will sort traffic as it will force people out of cars onto PT . Only way to do it .

what_traffic

Gwen Shallow Raccoon wrote: »

They were never a bypass, they were built in the city. The new one will be a high throughout, high speed motorway essentially well outside the city Centre. Totally different ball game.

At the time it was proposed as a long term solution (that did not work) to the car traffic problems of the late 80's/ early 90s in Galway City.
As I said - the Ring Road will suffer same fate, might "assist" with CAR traffic congestion for about 10 years if it is ever built - then we will end up same place again.
Interesting you say:
"
They were never a bypass, they were built in the city.
"

I would also make the same argument about the NEW Ring Road. Alot of what is been proposed is somewhat similar again as the current ring road in that it is been built on the current periphery of the City and through the City as youngrun has pointed out.
Sure does feel like history repeating.

what_traffic

what_traffic wrote: »

At the time it was proposed as a long term solution (that did not work) to the car traffic problems of the late 80's/ early 90s in Galway City.
As I said - the Ring Road will suffer same fate, might "assist" with CAR traffic congestion for about 10 years if it is ever built - then we will end up same place again.
Interesting you say:
"
They were never a bypass, they were built in the city.
"

I would also make the same argument about the NEW Ring Road. Alot of what is been proposed is somewhat similar again as the current ring road in that it is been built on the current periphery of the City and through the City as youngrun has pointed out.
Sure does feel like history repeating.

There is absolutely no comparison imo. The new road will be a proper high throughput road with a limited number of fixed entry/exit junctions, no lights, no pedestrian crossings etc. It will be a minimum 100kmh spec road also, you can’t compare the current route “around” the city to this.

Fian

I grew up in Galway before moving to Dublin for work, well spiddal actually but went to school in Galway.

To my mind the biggest problem with Galway traffic is the drivers, traffic moves so slowly there because people are too polite as much as anything else. Stopping when you have the right of way to let somebody out in front of you in a nice thing to do. However it causes delays for everybody behind you, actually the costs you impose on the traffic behind you far outweigh the benefit you are giving to teh person who you let out. They need to wait a sec to make sure you are really stopping, then pull out carefully in case you change your mind and move forward again, and the whole thing means that letting one car out is at the cost of maybe 5 cars going through the junction if you just followed teh right of way and the car looking to come out of a side street waited until the coast was clear. These micro delays are happening all the time all over Galway city and it is significant part of the congestion.

The roads are not being used efficiently. Traffic moves much more efficiently in Dublin where this kind of "after you", "no after you", "no no I insist after you", ah your very good are you really sure now?", "yes completely please be my guest", "ah thanks very much so" dance is replaced by "I have the right of way here and I am taking it, see ya"

Aside from that Bishop o'Donnell road is an absolute joke and the speed limit on that road between the Tuam road heading down towards Terryland is also an absolute joke.

McGiver

Fian wrote: »

I grew up in Galway before moving to Dublin for work, well spiddal actually but went to school in Galway.

To my mind the biggest problem with Galway traffic is the drivers, traffic moves so slowly there because people are too polite as much as anything else. Stopping when you have the right of way to let somebody out in front of you in a nice thing to do. However it causes delays for everybody behind you, actually the costs you impose on the traffic behind you far outweigh the benefit you are giving to teh person who you let out. They need to wait a sec to make sure you are really stopping, then pull out carefully in case you change your mind and move forward again, and the whole thing means that letting one car out is at the cost of maybe 5 cars going through the junction if you just followed teh right of way and the car looking to come out of a side street waited until the coast was clear. These micro delays are happening all the time all over Galway city and it is significant part of the congestion.

The roads are not being used efficiently. Traffic moves much more efficiently in Dublin where this kind of "after you", "no after you", "no no I insist after you", ah your very good are you really sure now?", "yes completely please be my guest", "ah thanks very much so" dance is replaced by "I have the right of way here and I am taking it, see ya"

Aside from that Bishop o'Donnell road is an absolute joke and the speed limit on that road between the Tuam road heading down towards Terryland is also an absolute joke.

That's not a major factor, maybe the least important one.

The factors are as follows in descending order:
1. Poor PT
2. Lack of planning/mismanagement GCC + NTA
2. Large rural trespassing/commuting traffic
2. Corrib bottlenecks
3. Poor road layout, markings, light timings
4. Narrow city streets
5. Too many cars parked on street in the centre
6. Slow drivers

what_traffic

Gwen Shallow Raccoon wrote: »

There is absolutely no comparison imo. The new road will be a proper high throughput road with a limited number of fixed entry/exit junctions, no lights, no pedestrian crossings etc. It will be a minimum 100kmh spec road also, you can’t compare the current route “around” the city to this.

Depends when you compare? Sure not now - but back in 1991 (if you were around the City that time) - it would look something similar to what the route of the NEW Ring Road. As said, may work for a while, will eventually end up like the current M50 thats if it is every built.

what_traffic

what_traffic wrote: »

Depends when you compare? Sure not now - but back in 1991 (if you were around the City that time) - it would look something similar to what the route of the NEW Ring Road. As said, may work for a while, will eventually end up like the current M50 thats if it is every built.

Without the m50 Dublin would be unimaginably bad though it would be a total no go area.

Imagine trying to get to the airport even, impossible!

xckjoo

Gwen Shallow Raccoon wrote: »

Without the m50 Dublin would be unimaginably bad though it would be a total no go area.

Imagine trying to get to the airport even, impossible!

The bus doesn't use the M50 and they go there multiple times a day.....


Think you're missing the point. The M50 was hyped as the solution to all Dublins traffic problems for all the reasons you're espousing for the proposed ring road in Galway. Now it's continuously bumper-to-bumper traffic jams. If all those people driving on the M50 every day were on public transport instead, you'd need a fraction of the road space. The bus would still get you to the airport with only


Side-question: Is there going to be any tolls on the proposed road for Galway?

xckjoo

xckjoo wrote: »

Side-question: Is there going to be any tolls on the proposed road for Galway?

No

xckjoo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No

Wonder would people still be happy for it to be built if there was going to be one

xckjoo

xckjoo wrote: »

Wonder would people still be happy for it to be built if there was going to be one

There should be no tolls on any road, they are a disgrace. We pay far too much to drive in Ireland the least we should be getting is top class toll free roads.

On top of that all tolls do is make private companies rich.

McGiver

Gwen Shallow Raccoon wrote: »

xckjoo wrote: »

Wonder would people still be happy for it to be built if there was going to be one

There should be no tolls on any road, they are a disgrace. We pay far too much to drive in Irelad the least we should be getting is top class toll free roads.

On top of that all tolls do is make private companies rich.

As I side comment and a bit OT, but I noticed you were saying motor taxes should be lowered. You are up for a surprise then and good luck with your fantasy of lower prices - ain't gonna happen.

Diesel and old vehicles are going to be targeted heavily in coming years as part of decarbonisation & electrification of personal transport, there's no other way. Also diesel is extremely carcinogenic air pollutant and whole Europe is going to phase it out, because the associated healthcare costs and lost opportunity costs are unacceptably high.

In Sweden, diesel cars motor tax is multiplied by a factor of 2.37 of an equivalent petrol car plus surcharge is added for old diesels, overall diesel car tax is 2.5 times higher. In Netherlands diesel tax is at least 2 times higher than petrol equivalent.

Dutch example Ford Fiesta:
Petrol 1.4 - 808 EUR
Diesel 1.4 - 1548 EUR

Irish comparison:
Petrol 1.4 - 305 EUR
Diesel 1.4 - 385 EUR

Hope that dispels the myth of high Irish taxes, which in fact is bollox. Overall Irish tax rate, including income tax, including VAT etc is one of the lowest in the EU. After Cyprus and Malta two tiny island quasi tax havens

Car insurance is relatively expensive in Ireland but that's somewhat outside the government's control unlike motor and related taxes where the government is fully in control of the policy.

DuckSlice

McGiver wrote: »

As I side comment and a bit OT, but I noticed you were saying motor taxes should be lowered. You are up for a surprise then and good luck with your fantasy of lower prices - ain't gonna happen.

Diesel and old vehicles are going to be targeted heavily in coming years as part of decarbonisation & electrification of personal transport, there's no other way. Also diesel is extremely carcinogenic air pollutant and whole Europe is going to phase it out, because the associated healthcare costs and lost opportunity costs are unacceptably high.

In Sweden, diesel cars motor tax is multiplied by a factor of 2.37 of an equivalent petrol car plus surcharge is added for old diesels, overall diesel car tax is 2.5 times higher. In Netherlands diesel tax is at least 2 times higher than petrol equivalent.

Dutch example Ford Fiesta:
Petrol 1.4 - 808 EUR
Diesel 1.4 - 1548 EUR

Irish comparison:
Petrol 1.4 - 305 EUR
Diesel 1.4 - 385 EUR

Hope that dispels the myth of high Irish taxes, which in fact is bollox. Overall Irish tax rate, including income tax, including VAT etc is one of the lowest in the EU. After Cyprus and Malta two tiny island quasi tax havens

Car insurance is relatively expensive in Ireland but that's somewhat outside the government's control unlike motor and related taxes where the government is fully in control of the policy.

I have a 3.0l diesel and its 390 for the year. on the old non emissions based system it would have been 1800 a year to tax.

Geuze

Gwen Shallow Raccoon wrote: »

There should be no tolls on any road, they are a disgrace. We pay far too much to drive in Ireland the least we should be getting is top class toll free roads.

On top of that all tolls do is make private companies rich.

Variable road-pricing is a solution.

Reduce VRT, but charge people to drive onto a scarce commodity: roadspace.

Both London and Singapore have road-pricing.

The M50 forms a cordon around Dublin, so we could charge drivers who travel inside it.

Reduce VRT on people in rural areas, who don't contribute to congestion.

Charge drivers who cause congestion in urban areas.

what_traffic

xckjoo wrote: »

Think you're missing the point. The M50 was hyped as the solution to all Dublins traffic problems for all the reasons you're espousing for the proposed ring road in Galway. Now it's continuously bumper-to-bumper traffic jams. If all those people driving on the M50 every day were on public transport instead, you'd need a fraction of the road space.

Thanks. Ya thats the point I was making. Not sure is "Induced Demand" understood by everyone on this thread.

Mrs OBumble

Gwen Shallow Raccoon wrote: »

They were never a bypass, they were built in the city. The new one will be a high throughout, high speed motorway essentially well outside the city Centre. Totally different ball game.

Have you looked at the route map? It's nothing like what you describe....

Mrs OBumble

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What do you propose to keep the city center moving with a 50% increase in the population?

In fairness, most of them will live in Ardaun, work in Parkmore, shop and socialise in Oranmore etc. Very little need for them to go into the centre at all.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In fairness, most of them will live in Ardaun, work in Parkmore, shop and socialise in Oranmore etc. Very little need for them to go into the centre at all.

It's definitely possible, however unlikely

xckjoo

Gwen Shallow Raccoon wrote: »

There should be no tolls on any road, they are a disgrace. We pay far too much to drive in Ireland the least we should be getting is top class toll free roads.

On top of that all tolls do is make private companies rich.

I actually agree with you on tolls in general in Ireland. Makes me think I'm in the wrong line of work.

But could see a benefit somewhere like this if it was properly used to dissuade private car usage. Would need a proper park and ride alternative in place first though. Commercial vehicles could be exempt. Disabled drivers could be exempt. M50 style with license plate cameras instead of toll booths to keep things moving. Money earned could go toward local projects.

But that's far to complex a system for me to believe that it could be run by the local council :pac:

what_traffic

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

In fairness, most of them will live in Ardaun, work in Parkmore, shop and socialise in Oranmore etc. Very little need for them to go into the centre at all.

Ardaun will not be that big from any of the City Council documents I have read. About 8,000 people are proposed to live there. Around 1/5 of that 50%.

timmyntc

what_traffic wrote: »

Ardaun will not be that big from any of the City Council documents I have read. About 8,000 people are proposed to live there. Around 1/5 of that 50%.

Those projections will never come true unless the city starts building upwards. Without a big increase in density of new builds the city population will just stagnate as traffic gets worse and the urban sprawl gets worse.

So if I were you I'd disregard that 50% increase completely

what_traffic

timmyntc wrote: »

Those projections will never come true unless the city starts building upwards. Without a big increase in density of new builds the city population will just stagnate as traffic gets worse and the urban sprawl gets worse.

So if I were you I'd disregard that 50% increase completely

I would be in the same boat as you, skeptical of 50% increase the way City Council operate, but thats the National Development Plan figure. The powers that be will probably just extend City Boundary out to Oranmore/Barna in 2039 - Target then met!

Ruhanna

what_traffic wrote: »

I would be in the same boat as you, skeptical of 50% increase the way City Council operate, but thats the National Development Plan figure. The powers that be will probably just extend City Boundary out to Oranmore/Barna in 2039 - Target then met!

Exactly.

This being Ireland, at least three things will happen:

1. The performance indicators in the plan will be regarded merely as serving suggestions.

2. Certain rules will be bent or ignored, to suit vested interests.

3. When (not if) targets are missed and rules are broken, there will be no accountability, nobody in authority will suffer any consequences, nothing will be learned, and the plan will in due course be quietly abandoned until it's time to draft a new one.

DuckSlice

Fair play to Michael Ring getting funding for the Castlebar bypass. Galway could do with someone like him.

xckjoo

etxp wrote: »

Fair play to Michael Ring getting funding for the Castlebar bypass. Galway could do with someone like him.

If we had somewhere that needed a bypass to get to.....

zell12

etxp wrote: »

Fair play to Michael Ring getting funding for the Castlebar bypass. Galway could do with someone like him.

A Ring road, so to speak

etxp

etxp wrote: »

Fair play to Michael Ring getting funding for the Castlebar bypass

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he had fook all to do with it except to tell everyone when he sent or received emails

DuckSlice

xckjoo wrote: »

If we had somewhere that needed a bypass to get to.....

xckjoo

etxp wrote: »

There's no large populations centres west of the river that warrant a bypass. The city to the east of the river is already bypassed. You can pass north<->south without entering the city and very few people are going east<->west. Park and ride in Knocknacarra and Moycullen would let people on the east get to the city and places of work without the need for a multi-million euro road that's liable to worsen traffic.

timmyntc

xckjoo wrote: »

There's no large populations centres west of the river that warrant a bypass. The city to the east of the river is already bypassed. You can pass north<->south without entering the city and very few people are going east<->west. Park and ride in Knocknacarra and Moycullen would let people on the east get to the city and places of work without the need for a multi-million euro road that's liable to worsen traffic.

There are no large populations centres, but there is a large enough population in that whole area west of the corrib. It doesn't matter that it's all spread out, they all still have to cross the corrib in Galway city to get anywhere east of the corrib. That's a problem that needs addressed. Whether it needs a few hundred million worth of dual carriageway is another story. A simple bridge as high up the river as possible would probably be enough - so long as traffic that doesn't need to go into the city doesn't have to.