ISIS people returning thread - no Lisa Smith talk (21/12/19)

recedite

A child can be "entitled" to multiple passports, depending on where they were born, and where their various parents were born, and what passports the parents had.
One thing's for sure though, you cant "go home" to a place you have never even laid eyes on.

ohnonotgmail

recedite wrote: »

A child can be "entitled" to multiple passports, depending on where they were born, and where their various parents were born, and what passports the parents had.
One thing's for sure though, you cant "go home" to a place you have never even laid eyes on.

you seem very intent on punishing children for the actions of their parents. Its a very strange mindset that i dont understand.

recedite

What punishment did I mention?
Would you like to bring all the children of the world to Europe?
It could be like a coca cola ad, all the smiley happy people together

ohnonotgmail

recedite wrote: »

What punishment did I mention?
Would you like to bring all the children of the world to Europe?
It could be like a coca cola ad, all the smiley happy people together

You want them to left where they are as orphans. Is that not a punishment? why do you have an issue with EU citizens who have done nothing wrong being brought back to the country they are a citizen of?

recedite

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You want them to left where they are as orphans. Is that not a punishment? why do you have an issue with EU citizens who have done nothing wrong being brought back to the country they are a citizen of?

Its not physically possible for somebody to be "brought back" to a place they have never been to.


But leaving aside the pedantics, why is it a crime for a child born in Syria to grow up in Syria, or a Nigerian to grow up in Nigeria?
Of course I feel sorry for orphans, wherever they are, and whatever their parents did. The EU should send some aid to Syria, and I mean to Syria itself which is ruled by Assad. Money for orphanages and generally rebuilding the country. There are probably thousands of innocent orphans there, maybe tens of thousands.


But no, I expect these orphans will be ignored. A handful of orphans descended from EU jihadis will be ceremoniously flown out and probably placed for adoption with Islamist families in Molenbeek, or somewhere like that. And so the cycle perpetuates itself.

ohnonotgmail

recedite wrote: »

Its not physically possible for somebody to be "brought back" to a place they have never been to.


But leaving aside the pedantics, why is it a crime for a child born in Syria to grow up in Syria, or a Nigerian to grow up in Nigeria?

very odd phrasing there. Quite deliberately so. you are asking for a french orphan to be abandoned in a country that is still experiencing war and its aftermaths. But you happy to do that because of who the parents were.

recedite wrote: »

Of course I feel sorry for orphans, wherever they are, and whatever their parents did.

Really, you couldn't tell from your posts. you are happy for them to be abandoned in a war-torn country.

recedite wrote: »

The EU should send some aid to Syria, and I mean to Syria itself which is ruled by Assad. Money for orphanages and generally rebuilding the country. There are probably thousands of innocent orphans there, maybe tens of thousands.

how many of them are EU citizens?

recedite wrote: »

But no, I expect these orphans will be ignored. A handful of orphans descended from EU jihadis will be ceremoniously flown out and probably placed for adoption with Islamist families in Molenbeek, or somewhere like that. And so the cycle perpetuates itself.

you have literally just pulled that from your arse.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how many of them are EU citizens?

So, you're suggesting that those who are not "entitled" to EU citizenship don't matter as much/at all?

Surely, as you say, children should be helped, regardless of who their parents are - and particularly, whether or not they are "entitled" to EU citizenship?

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

So, you're suggesting that those who are not "entitled" to EU citizenship don't matter as much/at all?

Surely, as you say, children should be helped, regardless of who their parents are - and particularly, whether or not they are "entitled" to EU citizenship?

i'm not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting that it is not out of the ordinary for a country to repatriate its citizens when those citizens are orphan children in a warzone. why do you have an issue with that?

recedite

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i'm not suggesting that at all.

You want the others to be left where they are as orphans. Is that not a punishment?
You only want to remove those that are descended from foreign jihadis, while ignoring all those kids who have been made orphans as a result of the actions of the martyred jihadis.

ohnonotgmail

recedite wrote: »

You want the others to be left where they are as orphans. Is that not a punishment?
You only want to remove those that are descended from foreign jihadis, while ignoring those who have been made orphans as a result of the actions of those martyred jihadis.

yes your concern is really for the other orphans and not intended to punish the children of jihadis. You must think we were all born yesterday.

recedite

recedite wrote: »

It would certainly be a lot cheaper for the EU to provide aid for housing for Syrians in Syria, than to house and feed them in Europe.

recedite wrote: »

The EU should send some aid to Syria, and I mean to Syria itself which is ruled by Assad. Money for orphanages and generally rebuilding the country. There are probably thousands of innocent orphans there, maybe tens of thousands.

.

ohnonotgmail

recedite wrote: »

.

this is your first post on the subject

"I am proud to be part of a mission to bring back home very young children"
Not quite true though is it. Its political-speak (lies).

You were more concerned with the nationality of these children that the other orphans in syria. It took until your 4th post on the subject before you even mentioned the other orphans. So again, you must think we were born yesterday.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i'm not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting that it is not out of the ordinary for a country to repatriate its citizens when those citizens are orphan children in a warzone. why do you have an issue with that?

So, what are you suggesting?
You keep referring to children who have an entitlement to EU citizenship as "EU citizens". You respond to a post suggesting aid should be sent to Syria to help orphans, and rebuild the Country, with a question about whether the orphans are EU citizens.

So, why then do you appear to make a difference between children who are entitled to EU citizenship, and those who are not?

Surely, if we don't want to "punish" (your word, not mine) innocent children for what their parents did, by leaving them in a Country destroyed by war, then we should apply the same compassion to children who are orphaned by what people who were not their parents did?

jmreire

recedite wrote: »

You want the others to be left where they are as orphans. Is that not a punishment?
You only want to remove those that are descended from foreign jihadis, while ignoring all those kids who have been made orphans as a result of the actions of the martyred jihadis.

At the moment in Iraq, captured Iraqi isis members, ( with their Families,and including Widow's and Orphans ) are being returned to their individual tribes. This follow's discussions between the Iraqi Government with the Tribal Elders, who have given guarantee's that they will accept them back, and be held accountable for them. I am pretty sure that each and everyone they will vouch for will have been thoroughly investigated before acceptance. This seems to be at least a start in solving the problem of what to do with the thousand's of captured isis fighters, and their Families. It also means that Widow's and Orphan's will be reunited with their own relative's in Iraq. The same would apply to the Widow's and Orphans of "foreign" fighters. Their European Families could claim them, as they would entitled to do.

recedite

jmreire wrote: »

At the moment in Iraq, captured Iraqi isis members, ( with their Families,and including Widow's and Orphans )

So Iraqi orphans born in Iraq, of Iraqi parents, are staying in Iraq.
Not very surprising that, is it?

jmreire

recedite wrote: »

So Iraqi orphans born in Iraq, of Iraqi parents, are staying in Iraq.
Not very surprising that, is it?

No more surprising than French, German, Irish or any other nationalities accepting their orphans and widow's back home, where they really belong, with their Families and friends.

recedite

jmreire wrote: »

No more surprising than French, German, Irish or any other nationalities accepting their orphans and widow's back home, where they really belong, with their Families and friends.

Well, its slightly different. Flying a child out of the country they were born in, out of the land and the culture they know, across the world to a totally different culture. All on the basis of an EU passport that a dead parent once held, but which they burned in disgust.
Maybe those very few kids who are selected will do better in Europe, maybe not.
What's certain is that if the same money could be spent on all the orphans in the region, a lot more good would come of it.

jmreire

recedite wrote: »

Well, its slightly different. Flying a child out of the country they were born in, out of the land and the culture they know, across the world to a totally different culture. All on the basis of an EU passport that a dead parent once held, but which they burned in disgust.
Maybe those very few kids who are selected will do better in Europe, maybe not.
What's certain is that if the same money could be spent on all the orphans in the region, a lot more good would come of it.

I'm speaking here about "western" isis widows and orphans..how well do you think they will do in Syria /Iraq / Kurd controlled areas? After what isis have done? Orphanages in Syria and Iraq are full of kids who were made orphans by isis...so will not be particularly welcoming to isis Orphans, and even less so for foreign Orphans. Their life will be hell, and most likely will be very short.Big difference between Iraqi isis members being sent back to their own tribe and family, and "Foreign" isis members staying in Syria or Iraq. Children, and the younger the better, are infinitely adaptable. A two year old kid, will only have vague memories of the 2 years spent with isis....as they get older, of course they will remember more, but by the time they are 7 or 8, and older, even these memories will be at best very vague, if not actually gone completely.. So if you really want the best for them, they will be better off back in Ireland, France, England, Spain etc.

recedite

jmreire wrote: »

I'm speaking here about "western" isis widows and orphans..

Widows and orphans are two different things.
We were discussing orphans, in particular those mentioned in this post.

jmreire

recedite wrote: »

Widows and orphans are two different things.
We were discussing orphans, in particular those mentioned in this post.

What I have said about either the Orphans or the Widow's is still valid.....If these Orphan's belong to Western Country's, that's where they should be coming back to, and I don't believe for one second that any kid in that age group could be irredeemably radicalized beyond redemption, and pose a threat to the West? I guess that you prefer that they remain where they are??

recedite

If these Orphan's belong to Western Country's

"Belonging" is somewhat loaded terminology. Especially for a kid who has never known any other life than life inside an Islamic State

Where does this kid belong?


My position remains that these kids are no more deserving of my support than any other orphan in Syria. I advocate helping them all, in Syria, where the money would go much further.

ohnonotgmail

recedite wrote: »

"Belonging" is somewhat loaded terminology. Especially for a kid who has never known any other life than life inside an Islamic State

Where does this kid belong?


My position remains that these kids are no more deserving of my support than any other orphan in Syria. I advocate helping them all, in Syria, where the money would go much further.

belong as in a citizen of. But you knew that. And nobody is asking you to support anybody.

jmreire

recedite wrote: »

"Belonging" is somewhat loaded terminology. Especially for a kid who has never known any other life than life inside an Islamic State

Where does this kid belong?


My position remains that these kids are no more deserving of my support than any other orphan in Syria. I advocate helping them all, in Syria, where the money would go much further.

Your pic only reinforces my point, kids in this sort of environment need to be rescued ASAP. Syria as a result of the war, as a Country, is not functioning at anything even remotely near what would be considered as "NORMAL", and this is especially true where hospitals and orphanages are concerned.They do their best, but even in the best cases, that is limited. And bear in mind that the war is still going on, in Idlib province at the moment, so "Normality" is still far into the future. As to "Belonging", these kids belong with their Families, even if these Families are Next-of-Kin, and in fact, for Syrian and Iraqi Orphans and Widow's, it's the Next-of-Kin who will claim them, it's part of their culture. They have very strong Family link's in those Country's. The same should happen in Europe, and in fact with the English isis girl, Begum, it's her Family who are fighting to get her back home. As to a child developing into a terrorist years down the line.....if left in that environment, that's what he /she may well become. Friend of mine during the war in Bosnia, married a local girl, a widow with a 3 year old son. He brought them both back to Ireland, the kid did not have one word of English. Now he is a director in a flourishing company, and a definite asset to the economy. He considers himself to be 100% Irish.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

What I have said about either the Orphans or the Widow's is still valid.....If these Orphan's belong to Western Country's, that's where they should be coming back to, and I don't believe for one second that any kid in that age group could be irredeemably radicalized beyond redemption, and pose a threat to the West? I guess that you prefer that they remain where they are??

Hang on a minute. What age group?
We don't even know how many kids may surface claiming a right to EU citizenship, meaning older kids, who have been well and truly indoctrinated, will have a "right" to come to Ireland.

We've all seen disgusting videos of very young kids committing horrendous acts - acts that the average 7-9 year old in Ireland would barely know exist in the real world.

A little bit of caution would go a long way....

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

Hang on a minute. What age group?
We don't even know how many kids may surface claiming a right to EU citizenship, meaning older kids, who have been well and truly indoctrinated, will have a "right" to come to Ireland.

We've all seen disgusting videos of very young kids committing horrendous acts - acts that the average 7-9 year old in Ireland would barely know exist in the real world.

A little bit of caution would go a long way....

At the monent, we are only focusing on two case's of Irish isis members, Lisa Smith and Bekmirsaev. Lisa's child is only 2 I think, not sure what are the ages of Bekmirsaev's kids though. There were an estimated 30 Irish National's went to Syria / Iraq to fight for isis. It's believed that 24 were killed, and 6 have survived ( but that's not certain at this point either ) So if all ( or at least some ) of these fighters had kids, its quite possible that there would be some 16,17, 18 year old's now in camps / orphans. These kids are entitled to Irish Citizenship, and as such cannot be refused entry into Ireland. So what will happen when (if ) they arrive back in Ireland?? I don't know. The Country has never had this kind of situation before, so there are no Laws in place to cover
it. Since the very beginning of this thread about Lisa Smith, the crux is that as she has not broken any Irish Law's... there is nothing legally to stop her coming back, quite the opposite, as an Irish Citizen, not only has she the right to return, but the Government is obliged to help her return. Same will apply to all Irish Citizens, regardless of age.
Update on Lisa from the Irish Independent: " Syrian Authorities have said that so far, they have not received any official request from the Irish government to repatriate Lisa Smith.

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

At the monent, we are only focusing on two case's of Irish isis members, Lisa Smith and Bekmirsaev. Lisa's child is only 2 I think, not sure what are the ages of Bekmirsaev's kids though. There were an estimated 30 Irish National's went to Syria / Iraq to fight for isis. It's believed that 24 were killed, and 6 have survived ( but that's not certain at this point either ) So if all ( or at least some ) of these fighters had kids, its quite possible that there would be some 16,17, 18 year old's now in camps / orphans. These kids are entitled to Irish Citizenship, and as such cannot be refused entry into Ireland. So what will happen when (if ) they arrive back in Ireland?? I don't know. The Country has never had this kind of situation before, so there are no Laws in place to cover
it. Since the very beginning of this thread about Lisa Smith, the crux is that as she has not broken any Irish Law's... there is nothing legally to stop her coming back, quite the opposite, as an Irish Citizen, not only has she the right to return, but the Government is obliged to help her return. Same will apply to all Irish Citizens, regardless of age.
Update on Lisa from the Irish Independent: " Syrian Authorities have said that so far, they have not received any official from the Irish government to repatriate Lisa Smith.

I know the Government is obliged to repatriate them.

I'm not so sure that there aren't anti-terrorism laws that might cover this situation, even if it isn't the use for which they were originally intended. Proof, of course, might be an entirely different matter.

In any case - it's a very unnerving thought that Ireland is obliged to give citizenship to people who detest everything that we stand for, and were very willing to see people slaughtered for considerably more conservative beliefs/behavior than is the norm in Ireland - particularly since Ireland had no part to play in the Syrian war.

Increasingly, it seems that European citizens are expected to pay a price for wars that individual Countries had nothing to do with.
I'm in favour of helping refugees.
Jihadis, on the other hand......not so much.

jmreire

Deleted User wrote: »

I know the Government is obliged to repatriate them.

I'm not so sure that there aren't anti-terrorism laws that might cover this situation, even if it isn't the use for which they were originally intended. Proof, of course, might be an entirely different matter.

In any case - it's a very unnerving thought that Ireland is obliged to give citizenship to people who detest everything that we stand for, and were very willing to see people slaughtered for considerably more conservative beliefs/behavior than is the norm in Ireland - particularly since Ireland had no part to play in the Syrian war.

Increasingly, it seems that European citizens are expected to pay a price for wars that individual Countries had nothing to do with.
I'm in favour of helping refugees.
Jihadis, on the other hand......not so much.

Agreed 100%. But the real problem here in Ireland is the legal position, there are simply no Law's to cover situation's like this. Germany, on the other hand, do have laws that forbid citizens going abroad to fight with any terrorist organisation. You can go all right,,, but if you come back, then they have a prison cell waiting for you.

Blueshoe

jmreire wrote: »

Agreed 100%. But the real problem here in Ireland is the legal position, there are simply no Law's to cover situation's like this. Germany, on the other hand, do have laws that forbid citizens going abroad to fight with any terrorist organisation. You can go all right,,, but if you come back, then they have a prison cell waiting for you.

Welfare and a place on the housing list is our solution

jmreire

jmreire wrote: »

Agreed 100%. But the real problem here in Ireland is the legal position, there are simply no Law's to cover situation's like this. Germany, on the other hand, do have laws that forbid citizens going abroad to fight with any terrorist organisation. You can go all right,,, but if you come back, then they have a prison cell waiting for you.

Yet another case of our wondrous legislature not bothering to introduce some perfectly sensible EU legislation.


Now, if it was legislation that might actually cost us money, or increase a threat to the lives of our citizens, such as an EU army, for instance - you can bet the da*n thing would be legislated for at light speed......

DelaneyIn

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/irish-fighters-travel-to-north-africa-foreign-terrorist-fighters-go-from-ireland-to-libya-say-eu-police-agency-934052.html

Lovely stuff. Any of them who are naturalized Irish citizens should have their new Irish citizenship rescinded immediately.