ISIS people returning thread - no Lisa Smith talk (21/12/19)

jmreire

tuxy wrote: »

schengen transit visa?
You can't travel without a passport in most cases but I believe you can still be deported. That said I'm sure most countries would produce travel documents for such cases if asked.

To the best of my knowledge, Schengen Visa's have to be applied for. And to get one, you must have the passport of your Country., What I know comes from Truck drivers, so I don't know the finer points of it. But all along the line, there is a paper trail. If Lisa could be deported without documentation , why did the Govt issue her with travel documents? Say Lisa arrives at Istanbul Airport, being deported, and without documents. I have traveled a lot, and have never seen anyone get into another Country without a passport, or other travel document. In fact, no plane will allow you to board without a passport, and depending where you are travelling to, a valid Visa. The airline's face stiff financial penalty's for accepting a passenger who does not have the correct document's..and have to return him / her to the point of origin. I had a big argument with Air Lingus staff at the check in desk one morning, all because my visa only had 6 weeks validity left. It did not even matter that I had a residency stamp in the passport, and already had spent more than 1 year working in that Country...and all because the rule's said 3 mths validity.

jmreire

tuxy wrote: »

If she has committed a crime then I don't think the Garda can ignore it.
That's why I mentioned the offences against the state act. But perhaps I'm looking at the wrong law.

I think that what they are looking at is the 2005 Anti-Terrorist act.

tuxy

jmreire wrote: »

If Lisa could be deported without documentation , why did the Govt issue her with travel documents? Say Lisa arrives at Istanbul Airport, being deported, and without documents. I have traveled a lot, and have never seen anyone get into another Country without a passport, or other travel document.

Because Turkey has the right to deport her and Ireland can't reject that so why make it needlessly difficult unless the wish is to create tension between Turkey and Ireland?
It's true that you are very unlikely to get into any country but your own with out a passport and even then it will take hours of interrogation before you can. There is nowhere they can send you when they find out you are only a citizen of the country you are in.

cj maxx

jmreire wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge, Schengen Visa's have to be applied for. And to get one, you must have the passport of your Country., What I know comes from Truck drivers, so I don't know the finer points of it. But all along the line, there is a paper trail. If Lisa could be deported without documentation , why did the Govt issue her with travel documents? Say Lisa arrives at Istanbul Airport, being deported, and without documents. I have traveled a lot, and have never seen anyone get into another Country without a passport, or other travel document. In fact, no plane will allow you to board without a passport, and depending where you are travelling to, a valid Visa. The airline's face stiff financial penalty's for accepting a passenger who does not have the correct document's..and have to return him / her to the point of origin. I had a big argument with Air Lingus staff at the check in desk one morning, all because my visa only had 6 weeks validity left. It did not even matter that I had a residency stamp in the passport, and already had spent more than 1 year working in that Country...and all because the rule's said 3 mths validity.

It's a special plane , and seemingly the passport is to leave Ireland. Any citizen has the right to enter ireland. Passport or not. As far as I understand

Danzy

Pythagorean wrote: »

It's worth looking at this in a slightly more detached, logical way. This woman is a European, English speaking member of Isis. As such, she could be a very valuable source of information about potential terrorists who may be a threat to European countries. She may be so glad to be back in the safe haven of Ireland, that she may well repent of her previous sins, and tell us all she knows, maybe there is a potential suicide bomber planning an attack somewhere that she may be able to prevent?. Rather than alienate her from the word go, why not give her the benefit of the doubt, at least initially, and see what she can tell us ?

She hasn't renounced her views in the slightest and most of those she knew there are splatter.

Realistically her Intel would be general, rather than preventive.

Hard to be sure on that but for the immense threat she represents, not enough.

Field east

Danzy wrote: »

She hasn't renounced her views in the slightest and most of those she knew there are splatter.

Realistically her Intel would be general, rather than preventive.

Hard to be sure on that but for the immense threat she represents, not enough.

It beggars belief that she can walk off a plane in Dublin a free woman legally. Irish intellegance then interviews her to see if she is a threat to the state. This could take a number of weeks/ months to carry out - as they cannot go in with all guns firing from the start. If she is found to be a serious threat to the state / individuals in it - eg have a knife in her bag and slash all around her in a supermarket- she is then arrested. , I assume, and the court system takes over and her ‘movement is restricted’ if found guilty. If that is the case, let’s hope that she does nothing on behalf if ISIS in the meantime.
ABOUT 30 years ago an insurance company, I think, went bankrupt. The gov at the time had some involvement in it - a partner, underwriter or trying to save it. If the law stayed as it was it would have cost , I think, the Gov millions at the time- being sued by those who were out of pocket.
What did the Gov do . The Dail met on day one to discuss a change in the law to head off claims, and it was voted into law the following day.

What has all this got to do with Lisa Smith? I think that if an Irish citizen ‘makes efforts ‘to support an organization / movement that carries out atrocities overseas , Irish law should be clear as to how such a person should be brought to account. This does not seem to be the case with LisaSmith.
The Irish Gov has sufficient information to be suspicious of she being involved / supporting very illegal activities and therefor should arrest her as she arrives.
Irish people are arrested every day if the guards are suspicious of he/she being involved in something illegal.

jmreire

tuxy wrote: »

Because Turkey has the right to deport her and Ireland can't reject that so why make it needlessly difficult unless the wish is to create tension between Turkey and Ireland?
It's true that you are very unlikely to get into any country but your own with out a passport and even then it will take hours of interrogation before you can. There is nowhere they can send you when they find out you are only a citizen of the country you are in.

I don't think so tuxy.. from the very start, Leo has made it clear that Lisa is an Irish Citizen, and entitled to come back home. The fact that it has taken so long is a different issue. So they have prepared travel documents for her, and the tension you speak about will not happen,
Hypothetically speaking, assume that the Turks ( or any other Country in a similar situation) don't have any proof of Citizenship of any particular refugee / prisoner etc. Then they simply can't deport them. Britain ( and probably other EU Country's too) have loads of people who they cannot deport simply because they don't have any documentation.
Say for the sake of argument, Lisa did not have any documents at all, and they put her on a direct flight to Ireland ( or anywhere else either ) and if it worked, what is to stop Turkey ( or the Kurd's )shipping the 70'000 isis member's to anywhere they like? Not going to happen, simply because they will not be accepted without Passport's or alternative travel document's. And in the World we live in nowadays...more than ever we need to watch who is coming in to Ireland.

jmreire

Field east wrote: »

It beggars belief that she can walk off a plane in Dublin a free woman legally. Irish intellegance then interviews her to see if she is a threat to the state. This could take a number of weeks/ months to carry out - as they cannot go in with all guns firing from the start. If she is found to be a serious threat to the state / individuals in it - eg have a knife in her bag and slash all around her in a supermarket- she is then arrested. , I assume, and the court system takes over and her ‘movement is restricted’ if found guilty. If that is the case, let’s hope that she does nothing on behalf if ISIS in the meantime.
ABOUT 30 years ago an insurance company, I think, went bankrupt. The gov at the time had some involvement in it - a partner, underwriter or trying to save it. If the law stayed as it was it would have cost , I think, the Gov millions at the time- being sued by those who were out of pocket.
What did the Gov do . The Dail met on day one to discuss a change in the law to head off claims, and it was voted into law the following day.

What has all this got to do with Lisa Smith? I think that if an Irish citizen ‘makes efforts ‘to support an organization / movement that carries out atrocities overseas , Irish law should be clear as to how such a person should be brought to account. This does not seem to be the case with LisaSmith.
The Irish Gov has sufficient information to be suspicious of she being involved / supporting very illegal activities and therefor should arrest her as she arrives.
Irish people are arrested every day if the guards are suspicious of he/she being involved in something illegal.

As the law stands, we are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and this is a very important piece of protection everyone is afforded. So will not be any different for Lisa. People are not arrested here just on suspicion of having committed a crime. They may be taken to a Guarda station for questioning but they will be arrested only after the Guard's have enough ground's to make a case against them. When the Lisa case first hit the headlines, the main discussion focused on the fact that regardless of what she may have done with /for isis abroad, she had not broken any Law's here in Ireland. So based on this, she would be free as a bird if she came home. Meanwhile, in other Country's, with more experience in these matter's ( terrorist bombings, shooting's ,stabbings etc.) they had already made laws concerning people who carried out these act's,even if they were carried out oversea's. So while Ireland may have plans to upgrade our Law's in line with say Germany, the only option they have realistically at the moment is the Anti-Terrorist Laws from 2005.And these Laws do have teeth...from 5 -10 years on conviction. Lisa is under investigation ( and has been since this issue came to light. ) But we will have to wait and see what will happen when and if she arrive's back.

cfuserkildare

jmreire wrote: »

As the law stands, we are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and this is a very important piece of protection everyone is afforded. So will not be any different for Lisa. People are not arrested here just on suspicion of having committed a crime. They may be taken to a Guarda station for questioning but they will be arrested only after the Guard's have enough ground's to make a case against them. When the Lisa case first hit the headlines, the main discussion focused on the fact that regardless of what she may have done with /for isis abroad, she had not broken any Law's here in Ireland. So based on this, she would be free as a bird if she came home. Meanwhile, in other Country's, with more experience in these matter's ( terrorist bombings, shooting's ,stabbings etc.) they had already made laws concerning people who carried out these act's,even if they were carried out oversea's. So while Ireland may have plans to upgrade our Law's in line with say Germany, the only option they have realistically at the moment is the Anti-Terrorist Laws from 2005.And these Laws do have teeth...from 5 -10 years on conviction. Lisa is under investigation ( and has been since this issue came to light. ) But we will have to wait and see what will happen when and if she arrive's back.

So how does the law stand in regards to membership of a known terrorist organisation?
Is Lisa Smith going to walk free when she already freely stated that she went there to Join ISIS?

ohnonotgmail

cfuserkildare wrote: »

So how does the law stand in regards to membership of a known terrorist organisation?
Is Lisa Smith going to walk free when she already freely stated that she went there to Join ISIS?

ISIS was not (is not??) on the list of proscribed terrorist organisations in this country.

jmreire

cfuserkildare wrote: »

So how does the law stand in regards to membership of a known terrorist organisation?
Is Lisa Smith going to walk free when she already freely stated that she went there to Join ISIS?

That is what the investigation is all about...and as I mentioned in the very last line of my post... we will have to see what actually happen's when / if she arrives back. Afaik, in addition to the RW members ( who we are now told were not sent out to "extract" Lisa, but to give their "support"... what ever that mean's) there are member's of An Garda Siochana there too. So no, I can't see Lisa just walking off the plane, through Passport / Custom's control and into a waiting car which will take her home. If fact, I could see there being quite a delay between leaving the Airport and Arriving in her own front door.

Patrick2010

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

ISIS was not (is not??) on the list of proscribed terrorist organisations in this country.

He said known not proscribed

ohnonotgmail

Patrick2010 wrote: »

He said known not proscribed

it is not illegal to be a member of a known terrorist organisation if they are not proscribed.

cfuserkildare

So how does that apply to the two in Waterford accused of fundraising for ISIS?

ohnonotgmail

cfuserkildare wrote: »

So how does that apply to the two in Waterford accused of fundraising for ISIS?

who are they and what were they charged with?

donegal_man

cfuserkildare wrote: »

So how does the law stand in regards to membership of a known terrorist organisation?
Is Lisa Smith going to walk free when she already freely stated that she went there to Join ISIS?

Isn't her claim that she wasn't a member of ISIS as a "military" entity rather a member of ISIS as a "state" ie she was at all times a civilian while she was there.

end of the road

jmreire wrote: »

I don't think so tuxy.. from the very start, Leo has made it clear that Lisa is an Irish Citizen, and entitled to come back home. The fact that it has taken so long is a different issue. So they have prepared travel documents for her, and the tension you speak about will not happen,
Hypothetically speaking, assume that the Turks ( or any other Country in a similar situation) don't have any proof of Citizenship of any particular refugee / prisoner etc. Then they simply can't deport them. Britain ( and probably other EU Country's too) have loads of people who they cannot deport simply because they don't have any documentation.
Say for the sake of argument, Lisa did not have any documents at all, and they put her on a direct flight to Ireland ( or anywhere else either ) and if it worked, what is to stop Turkey ( or the Kurd's )shipping the 70'000 isis member's to anywhere they like? Not going to happen, simply because they will not be accepted without Passport's or alternative travel document's. And in the World we live in nowadays...more than ever we need to watch who is coming in to Ireland.

i would be surprised if they don't have proof though, i would be surprised if the americans weren't sharing information with turkey for example which would throw up information as to where they came from.
i don't know for definite obviously but it would seem logical to me anyway.

jmreire

end of the road wrote: »

i would be surprised if they don't have proof though, i would be surprised if the americans weren't sharing information with turkey for example which would throw up information as to where they came from.
i don't know for definite obviously but it would seem logical to me anyway.

Agreed 110%. I'd say that there is a fat file with her name on it..

cfuserkildare

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

who are they and what were they charged with?

Oh this is classic,


Argue a point when you have not done your research properly.


Firstly was 1 man as per the article attached ( not 2 as I mistakenly stated)


https://www.waterfordlive.ie/news/home/322438/man-jailed-for-fundraising-for-isis-in-waterford.html


and another, just to be sure:-


https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/four-isis-terrorist-fundraising-suspects-13898448


And just to confirm the sentiments:-

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/suspected-isis-fundraisers-held-in-dublin-over-syria-cash-transfers-1.3767202

ohnonotgmail

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Oh this is classic,


Argue a point when you have not done your research properly.


Firstly was 1 man as per the article attached ( not 2 as I mistakenly stated)


https://www.waterfordlive.ie/news/home/322438/man-jailed-for-fundraising-for-isis-in-waterford.html


and another, just to be sure:-


https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/four-isis-terrorist-fundraising-suspects-13898448

we were discussing Lisa smith. surely you cant expect me to know every islamist in the country? now back to the point. They were not charged with membership of a proscribed organisation, which is what i responded to. these people were charged with a specific offence that does not reference proscribed organisations. such an offence is not relevant in the case of lisa smith. Nor is she quilty of membership of a proscribed organisation as ISIS was not such an organisation when she left to join them.

cfuserkildare

ohnonotgmail,

Yeh thats fair.

Isn't ISIS one of those organisation's now on the " Bad " list?

Especially with their ties to Boko Haram and child abuse/smuggling? etc.

ohnonotgmail

cfuserkildare wrote: »

ohnonotgmail,

Yeh thats fair.

Isn't ISIS one of those organisation's now on the " Bad " list?

Especially with their ties to Boko Haram and child abuse/smuggling? etc.

the question was asked in the Dail earlier in the year. the answer given is as clear as mud

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PQ-02-04-2019-213

Field east

jmreire wrote: »

As the law stands, we are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and this is a very important piece of protection everyone is afforded. So will not be any different for Lisa. People are not arrested here just on suspicion of having committed a crime. They may be taken to a Guarda station for questioning but they will be arrested only after the Guard's have enough ground's to make a case against them. When the Lisa case first hit the headlines, the main discussion focused on the fact that regardless of what she may have done with /for isis abroad, she had not broken any Law's here in Ireland. So based on this, she would be free as a bird if she came home. Meanwhile, in other Country's, with more experience in these matter's ( terrorist bombings, shooting's ,stabbings etc.) they had already made laws concerning people who carried out these act's,even if they were carried out oversea's. So while Ireland may have plans to upgrade our Law's in line with say Germany, the only option they have realistically at the moment is the Anti-Terrorist Laws from 2005.And these Laws do have teeth...from 5 -10 years on conviction. Lisa is under investigation ( and has been since this issue came to light. ) But we will have to wait and see what will happen when and if she arrive's back.

“—— May have plans to upgrade our laws in line with say Germany, ——“
That phrase encapsulates my core point. The Gov should act immediately very fast track the upgrading the law - like it did b4 with that insurance company collapse a number of years ago.

Field east

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

ISIS was not (is not??) on the list of proscribed terrorist organisations in this country.

Can the dail, right now put ISIS on that list and backdate to the date that it was know to exist

osarusan

Field east wrote: »

Can the dail, right now put ISIS on that list and backdate to the date that it was know to exist

You can't apply the law retroactively.

mgn

Charlie Flanagan & Co have no time to look at new laws.

Their too busy going around giving interviews calling people racist, or trying to think of what kind of new penalty points or fines the can dish out to motorist.

Mules

Charlie Flanagan is some ghoul. He was useless in foreign affairs and he's worse in justice.

biko

US-born Alabama woman who joined ISIS is not an American citizen, judge rules
https://www.foxnews.com/us/us-born-woman-who-joined-isis-not-american-citizen

A federal judge ruled Thursday that an American-born woman who traveled to Syria to join the Islamic State (ISIS) group and now wants to return to her family in Alabama is not a U.S. citizen.

Muthana, 25, currently lives with her 2-year-old son in a refugee camp in Syria and has since repudiated the terrorist group. A court motion said she and child, identified only as John Doe, were moved from the Roj refugee camp after receiving death threats from ISIS supporters and that their lives are in danger, The New York Times reported.

In 2014, Muthana withdrew from college and left her home in Alabama to travel to Syria after being radicalized by ISIS online. She promoted the group's ideology on social media and called on Muslims to commit attacks in America, such as drive-by shootings and attempts to assassinate former President Barack Obama.

She has since apologized for her actions and said she wishes to return to the U.S. In February, Muthana said she wanted to come home even if it meant facing charges. Her passport was canceled in 2016 under the Obama administration.

The judge said he received thousands of messages mostly "spewed with hate" and threats against him if he ruled in Muthana's favor. He described them as failed attempts to "intimidate the court."

biko

Oh and a trigger warning is needed

The State Department had said she wasn't a citizen, and

President Trump

ordered Secretary of State Mike Pompeo not to let her in the country.

mgn

biko wrote: »

US-born Alabama woman who joined ISIS is not an American citizen, judge rules
https://www.foxnews.com/us/us-born-woman-who-joined-isis-not-american-citizen

Great to see someone calling out this bulls*it.