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Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Disclaimer: I am not expert or buff, I just have an interest in WW2 and have read/watched a fair bit of material on the Holocaust

First and most importantly, if you have a genuine interest in the subject, you should be reading the whole book to get context, it doesn't make sense to leaf through a few pages. Reitlinger's info is considered quite outdated by this stage, there are modern books with more up to date info that you should be referencing (if you aren't into the denser history books, then one I have recently read is "Auschwitz; Nazi's and the 'Final Solution'" by Rees, which is very accessible and deals with the main camp complex)

Secondly you are going too far back with information from Nuremberg, and the early Soviet figures, etc. It's creating this big mess in your mind over the subject. The Cold war was descending, there were practical difficulties for researchers to access sites, there was propaganda and so on. Modern information will do.

Thirdly - Holocaust figures are broken down. Some count the early systematic murders and disappearances in Germany from 1933. Some start just after the outbreak of the war and other's start in the forties. Early killings were predominantly done by the Einsatzgruppen using a variety of methods. Camps became more prominent later, there were two types of camps: labour and extermination. Figures are mainly by camps (there were over 40,000 camps and ghettos). For example here are the current estimates. It's grim, but it's also important to note that there were many different ways people died in the Holocaust, for example, it wasn't uncommon for Jews and other groups to freeze or suffocate to death in the cattle carts they were transported in. Some entire trains were dead on arrival. For the camps themselves, likewise there many ways that people died, exposure, disease, suicide (in Treblinka it's estimated that at one point 15-20 SonderKommando killed themselves a night) As we drill down into details, some historians may include data that other historians don't. Some will use estimates where certain data is incomplete, whereas other historians will completely exclude estimates if the data isn't up to a certain level

What this means is that there are many different ways of calculating figures. Time is also a key factor. New evidence comes to light all the time, which means that a record published in e.g. 1970, may not have as much complete data as a record published in e.g. 1990.

So over time, and with all the historians and researchers, if we put all their estimates on a large scatter-plot, apart from some extremities, you'd see the majority put the figures of Jewish deaths at around 5.5 million to 6.2 million, or 6 million for short

If you have questions about the finer details (for genuine reasons), then I would suggest the history forum. Some posters on here know a decent bit (off the top of my head Tony_Eh). Outside of this site there is the Axis military forums, Reddit (r/history or r/askahistorian), and many others. Be warned, if they detect you are trolling or being pedantic, you can be banned

We both agree the Nazi regime murdered Jews and we both acknowledge many millions got killed by them! 
Before I post further, I have not had the time. It is a 600+ page work it not a short study.  You asked how Reitlinger calculated his figures, and I posted a short summary.

To the main discussion. You have arrived at a conclusion his work outdated, and believe so, because of a timeline? You’re forgetting here repeatedly is the six million number has not altered since WW2!

Reitlinger had the estimate of six million when he composed his book and still rejected it.  At some point, the census statistics for 1933, must be looked at, to find the true amount of Jews got murdered?

Jewish academics maintain the holocaust started in 1933 and onwards, then they need to provide a resolution to end this controversy.

 The accepted chapter for the start of the extermination (holocaust) is the period 1941 to 1945. 

Another forgotten aspect. Auschwitz concentration camp had 4 million casualties and not 1 million before 1991. Papers from 80s held 3 million Jews perished at the camp?. Where the two million extra Jews wrongly placed in six million figure? 

Thanks, i have a look around these sites when i have time. 

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »


You have arrived at a conclusion his work outdated, and believe so, because of a timeline?

No, because new research over the decades has revealed more data and evidence than Reitlinger had at the time.

 You’re forgetting here repeatedly is the six million number has not altered since WW2!

There were various estimates. In 1944, German command talked about 5 million Jews killed. Shortly after the surrender of Germany in 1945, a high ranking Nazi put the figure at 6 million.

There were many estimates, some higher, some lower.

Jewish academics maintain the holocaust started in 1933 and onwards, then they need to provide a resolution to end this controversy.

They can, it's subjective. The German state started killing Jewish people from 1933. It started on an industrial level in the early 1940's.

 The accepted chapter for the start of the extermination (holocaust) is the period 1941 to 1945. 

That's the most common period referred to.

Another forgotten aspect. Auschwitz concentration camp had 4 million casualties and not 1 million before 1991. Papers from 80s held 3 million Jews perished at the camp?. Where the two million extra Jews wrongly placed in six million figure? 

The Polish communist government made that claim, key historians did not support it, including a prominent Polish historian. In the early nineties the Polish conceded it was incorrect

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

No, because new research over the decades has revealed more data and evidence than Reitlinger had at the time.



There were various estimates. In 1944, German command talked about 5 million Jews killed. Shortly after the surrender of Germany in 1945, a high ranking Nazi put the figure at 6 million.

There were many estimates, some higher, some lower.



They can, it's subjective. The German state started killing Jewish people from 1933. It started on an industrial level in the early 1940's.



That's the most common period referred to.



The Polish communist government made that claim, key historians did not support it, including a prominent Polish historian. In the early nineties the Polish conceded it was incorrect

The new sources for information have not pored over the actual evidence  When you open your eyes, you will see the pre-war stats show 6 million Jews lived in Romania, Soviet Union and Poland. The other 3.5 million Jews lived in Southern and Central and Northern Europe.  About 9.5 million total. 
The Jewish holocaust websites position is about two-thirds of all Jews died because of the holocaust. Left with 3.5 million lived ( the other  6 million murdered during the holocaust period)

My view was not achievable Nazi regime rounded up and caught 6 million Jews after 1933 and exterminated them all by shootings and gassing This is my view, i see as rational and just commonsense. We’ll be here all that day arguing about this point and to be honest it best we just agree to disagree. 

I like to make this my final post on the topic. 

Ending with this hopefully. Holocaust is a complex historical event, and finding hard evidence, to how many actually died by gassings and shootings is next to impossible when there no records and documentation left behind by the Nazi regime. It’s narrative black hole and many can defend six million died because of the holocaust, due to that.. Still evidence and it’s accessible, the pre war population census, historians can use it to establish to how many Jewish people likely died after 1933. 

Many Assumptions are made all six million died ( due to the holocaust) and others disagree- . I am in second camp and if that’s holocaust denial so be it!

The dilemma. Many far right right groups claim no Jewish people were murdered and was a Jewish hoax. Some believe only few hundred thousand died. Revision is fine as long as you respect the experience and believe it happened and was not hoaxed by the Jewish people. 

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »


My view was not achievable Nazi regime rounded up and caught 6 million Jews after 1933 and exterminated them all by shootings and gassing

This isn't what real historians claim. You are misrepresenting things again.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »


when there no records and documentation left behind by the Nazi regime.

And another lie.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »


Many Assumptions are made all six million died ( due to the holocaust) and others disagree- . I am in second camp and if that’s holocaust denial so be it!

There are two camps.
Real historians who use actual research. And holocaust deniers.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »


The dilemma. Many far right right groups claim no Jewish people were murdered and was a Jewish hoax. Some believe only few hundred thousand died. Revision is fine as long as you respect the experience and believe it happened and was not hoaxed by the Jewish people. 

The vast majority of the arguments you used come from these far right groups and spokespeople. You have sourced literal neo nazis as references.

If you don't believe that it's a Jewish hoax, why do you believe ALL historians disagree with your beliefs? Are they all just wrong and you are a better historian?
You've continually dodged this question and I believe this is because you do believe it is a Jewish lead hoax.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

The new sources for information have not pored over the actual evidence 

If you are interested in the Holocaust I suggest you read modern material on it. We know a lot more now than we did in the 50's or 60's.

My view was not achievable Nazi regime rounded up and caught 6 million Jews after 1933 and exterminated them all by shootings and gassing This is my view, 

Incredulity is never an argument against something. They liquidated around 11 million people using a wide variety of methods.

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

This isn't what real historians claim. You are misrepresenting things again.


And another lie.


There are two camps.
Real historians who use actual research. And holocaust deniers.


The vast majority of the arguments you used come from these far right groups and spokespeople. You have sourced literal neo nazis as references.

If you don't believe that it's a Jewish hoax, why do you believe ALL historians disagree with your beliefs? Are they all just wrong and you are a better historian?
You've continually dodged this question and I believe this is because you do believe it is a Jewish lead hoax.

Why you being deceptive about the numbers?
9.5 million is the accepted Jewish population stat?
Why you lying and now claiming there neo Nazi references?
 I posted a screenshot belonging  Holocaust Jewish website, that how i found, the 9.5 million number. 
3.5 million left in Europe after the war.
You left with 6 milllion who disappeared since 1933.
Fact is 6 millon are described as having died during the holocaust period (1941 to 1945)
Don’t let facts bother you here. 

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Why you being deceptive about the numbers? 

I'm not being deceptive about any numbers. Why are you claiming I am?

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Why you lying and now claiming there neo Nazi references?

Because you have previously used neo nazi and neo nazi linked people as references.
Your arguments are the same ones the far right people who claim it's a Jewish lead hoax.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Fact is 6 millon are described as having died during the holocaust period (1941 to 1945)
 

Yes, because 6 million Jewish people and 5 million other people were killed by the nazis during the holocaust.
That's the historical fact.

You've dodged the question again. I believe that this is confirmation that you believe it's a Jewish lead hoax.
If this is not the case, please feel free to correct me and answer the question. Otherwise, I'm going to continue with this assumption.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Why you being deceptive about the numbers?
9.5 million is the accepted Jewish population stat?
Why you lying and now claiming there neo Nazi references?
 I posted a screenshot belonging  Holocaust Jewish website, that how i found, the  9.5 million number. 
3.5 million left in Europe after the war.
You left with 6 milllion who disappeared since 1933.
Fact is 6 millon are described as having died during the holocaust period (1941 to 1945)
Don’t let facts bother you here. 

Cheerful, it's very obvious most of your information about the Holocaust is coming from holocaust denial sites and similar, you have been using many of their talking points here and in previous threads

This is why I am suggesting you read proper sources so you can look at the situation properly

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Cheerful, it's very obvious most of your information about the Holocaust is coming from holocaust denial sites and similar, you have been using many of their talking points here and in previous threads

This is why I am suggesting you read proper sources so you can look at the situation properly

Thats obvious lie.

This is screenshot i posted.

You can see it's from holocaust memorial museum


Two thirds of 9.5 million dead= close to 6 million.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Thats obvious lie.

This is screenshot i posted.

You can see it's from holocaust memorial museum


Two thirds of 9.5 million dead= close to 6 million.

Yes but cheerful, we're not disputing the number.
We're disputing the argument you are using based on that number.
It's a very silly argument

That argument comes from far right antisemetic holocaust deniers. You didn't come up with it.

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

Yes but cheerful, we're not disputing the number.
We're disputing the argument you are using based on that number.
It's a very silly argument

That argument comes from far right antisemetic holocaust deniers. You didn't come up with it.

What argument?
It just commonsense.
Something you lack.
If you disputing 3.5 million did not survive the war. Then we can debate that.
Six million number taken from that census done in 1933.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Thats obvious lie.

The denialists often use real information, they just distort it or frame it in a particular way to sow doubt

e.g. you mentioned the 4 million death toll for Auschwitz, which is a popular point that denialists use. Yet it's meaning changes when we apply context to it. You've used many points like that in previous debates.

You've admit to never reading any book on the subject, even the 1950's history book you are referencing as infallible. In general, your overall knowledge of the subject seems vague, but oddly sharp for particular issues, issues that happen to be common denialist talking points

You have a long history of lifting material straight from denial and conspiracy blogs on this site, and treating those sources as gospel

All of this points to you constantly referencing denialist material from the get-go.

Again, I strongly suggest you take this to the history forum, if you are genuine. You'll get more indepth answers there.

If you aren't genuine...

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

What argument?
It just commonsense.

The argument you are using that the census data somehow disproves the accepted figure used by actual historians.
The census data does not clash with the figures used by actual historians.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

If you disputing 3.5 million did not survive the war. Then we can debate that.
Six million number taken from that census done in 1933.

I'm not disputing those figures.

And yes, again, Six million jewish people were killed by the Nazis.

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The denialists often use real information, they just distort it or frame it in a particular way to sow doubt

e.g. you mentioned the 4 million death toll for Auschwitz, which is a popular point that denialists use. Yet it's meaning changes when we apply context to it. You've used many points like that in previous debates.

You've admit to never reading any book on the subject, even the 1950's history book you are referencing as infallible. In general, your overall knowledge of the subject seems vague, but oddly sharp for particular issues, issues that happen to be common denialist talking points

You have a long history of lifting material straight from denial and conspiracy blogs on this site, and treating those sources as gospel

All of this points to you constantly referencing denialist material from the get-go.

Again, I strongly suggest you take this to the history forum, if you are genuine. You'll get more indepth answers there.

If you aren't genuine...

Looking at it the wrong way. 
The six million number hasn’t changed since WW2 right up till now. Even though Auschwitz figure was 4 million till 1991 ( 3 million Jewish murdered and 1 million others)
Are you claiming now that extra two million Jewish souls was not included in official figures at all?
It was Reiltiger reasoning that number was wrong and said was only 800,000 Jews died. His estimates was 4.1 million died because of the Holocaust. Was people like him who reasoned the six million number wrong.
 

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Looking at it the wrong way. 
The six million number hasn’t changed since WW2 right up till now. Even though Auschwitz figure was 4 million till 1991 ( 3 million Jewish murdered and 1 million others)
Are you claiming now that extra two million Jewish souls was not included in official figures at all?
It was Reiltiger reasoning that number was wrong and said was only 800,000 Jews died. His estimates was 4.1 million died because of the Holocaust. Was people like him who reasoned the six million number wrong.
 

The 4 million number was not and is not included in the current figure.

You are now suggesting that historians are falsifying the existence of two million people.
And again, this is evidence that you believe this is a Jewish lead conspiracy.

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

The 4 million number was not and is not included in the current figure.

You are now suggesting that historians are falsifying the existence of two million people.
And again, this is evidence that you believe this is a Jewish lead conspiracy.

Evidence you can't add and do subtraction.
Since six million hasn't changed since WW2. Two million souls scrubbed from the record, making no sense.
You have to dig into every record by historians to see if they changed original gassing numbers to shootings instead.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Evidence you can't add and do subtraction.

No, I can do basic math cheerful.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Since six million hasn't changed since WW2. Two million souls scrubbed from the record, making no sense.
You have to dig into every record by historians to see if they changed original gassing numbers to shootings instead.

Again, this is a false ignorant argument that comes from far right antisemitic sources.
You are suggesting that there is a conspiracy to inflate the numbers of Jewish deaths.
I believe this is because you share their antisemitic beliefs.

mouldybiscuits

The Thought Police in action again. It's disturbing how these mega corporations have so much political influence. I don't see any way of solving this problem either since the very ones with the power to do anything about it are the ones being influenced.

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

No, I can do basic math cheerful.



Again, this is a false ignorant argument that comes from far right antisemitic sources.
You are suggesting that there is a conspiracy to inflate the numbers of Jewish deaths.
I believe this is because you share their antisemitic beliefs.

If the record has not changed like you claim.
Some European historians then believed 8 million Jews died because of the Holocaust?
1.5 million survived.

Dohnjoe

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

The six million number hasn’t changed since WW2 right up till now.

There were many estimates directly after WW2. Some, including certain German's estimated the figures were close to 6 million. Those estimates turned out to be correct in terms of modern estimates

Even though Auschwitz figure was 4 million till 1991 ( 3 million Jewish murdered and 1 million others)

As explained, 4 million was a figure that came mainly from the Polish government for Auschwitz. Key historians maintained the figure was between 1 mm and 1.5 mm (at the time), in the decades since most estimates put the deaths in Auschwitz at around 1.1 million

It was Reiltiger reasoning that number was wrong and said was only 800,000 Jews died.

He wasn't too far off modern figures, but as mentioned he didn't have all the evidence and data that is available today

His estimates was 4.1 million died because of the Holocaust. 
 

His estimates were 4.2 to 4.5 mm.

This has been mentioned in the thread before. It's very concerning how you seem to try to "low-ball" the figure.

A lot of red flags to your "interest" in the Holocaust

mouldybiscuits

King Mob wrote: »

No, I can do basic math cheerful.



Again, this is a false ignorant argument that comes from far right antisemitic sources.
You are suggesting that there is a conspiracy to inflate the numbers of Jewish deaths.
I believe this is because you share their antisemitic beliefs.

On that note I can also see why there would have been a conspiracy to inflate numbers. It would help to assert the notion that the Allies were the good guys and the Nazis were evil bad guys who had to be stopped. It absolutely makes sense in a world that was dominated by propaganda on both sides. I don't think it means someone is anti semetic to believe the numbers might have been inflated, that's just looking at the statistics with some rational thinking. It shouldn't be controversial to question things in a world where many lies are manufactured. My personal opinion is I do not know how accurate those numbers were or could have been. I think it's a very rough estimation because so many would have been unaccounted for. 6 million or 2 million, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme since any huge number like that is just as shocking and inhumane.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

If the record has not changed like you claim.
Some European historians then believed 8 million Jews died because of the Holocaust?
1.5 million survived.

No. That's not my argument. You are again misrepresenting things.
Dohnjoe explains it to you in very clear terms, but you will ignore this because you will have no response to it.

King Mob

mouldybiscuits wrote: »

I don't think it means someone is anti semetic to believe the numbers might have been inflated, that's just looking at the statistics with some rational thinking.

If this is the case, why is the number of Jewish people killed the only number that is questioned?

mouldybiscuits wrote: »

My personal opinion is I do not know how accurate those numbers were or could have been. I think it's a very rough estimation because so many would have been unaccounted for. .

Which historical texts and papers did you read to reach this conclusion?

Dohnjoe

mouldybiscuits wrote: »

The Thought Police in action again. It's disturbing how these mega corporations have so much political influence. I don't see any way of solving this problem either since the very ones with the power to do anything about it are the ones being influenced.

They are stopping people posting false medical disinformation on their private social media sites. It's pretty common sense stuff considering there's a pandemic

Dohnjoe

mouldybiscuits wrote: »

On that note I can also see why there would have been a conspiracy to inflate numbers. It would help to assert the notion that the Allies were the good guys and the Nazis were evil bad guys who had to be stopped. It absolutely makes sense in a world that was dominated by propaganda on both sides. I don't think it means someone is anti semetic to believe the numbers might have been inflated, that's just looking at the statistics with some rational thinking. It shouldn't be controversial to question things in a world where many lies are manufactured. My personal opinion is I do not know how accurate those numbers were or could have been. I think it's a very rough estimation because so many would have been unaccounted for. 6 million or 2 million, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme since any huge number like that is just as shocking and inhumane.

If you don't know much about it or the extent of historical research on the subject, why would your assumptions be worth anything..

That's the equivalent of someone saying "I don't really know much about the Irish potato famine, but it could be 100,000 or 2 million deaths, a lot of propaganda back then, who knows"

An opinion based on self-professed ignorance is not worth a jot.

Cheerful Spring2

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There were many estimates directly after WW2. Some, including certain German's estimated the figures were close to 6 million. Those estimates turned out to be correct in terms of modern estimates



As explained, 4 million was a figure that came mainly from the Polish government for Auschwitz. Key historians maintained the figure was between 1 mm and 1.5 mm (at the time), in the decades since most estimates put the deaths in Auschwitz at around 1.1 million



He wasn't too far off modern figures, but as mentioned he didn't have all the evidence and data that is available today



His estimates were 4.2 to 4.5 mm.

This has been mentioned in the thread before. It's very concerning how you seem to try to "low-ball" the figure.

A lot of red flags to your "interest" in the Holocaust

You just attribute all the blame to the Polish government? The believe was 8 million Jewish people died, and the Jewish World lobby, never told them the number wrong and to change it?
Nevertheless you still have not provided any good argument why the six million number make sense yet.
Fact remains the near 6 millon deaths, is measured based on a pre war population census from 1933.
Fact remains the 6 million are alleged to have got murdered during the period 1941 to 1945. 
Fact remains, that’s impossible, that no jews, died from from other events, taking place during the year 1933 to 1941. You have a large gap of 8 years to trace them all back.
His estimate at low was 4.1 million i posted yesterday. It not fake number i made up. 

Red flags bull****. I like truth. Reason i discuss 9/11 and JFK also. People like you think the evidence is all ready known and there no reason to look into it any more.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

the Jewish World lobby

Lol.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Fact remains the near 6 millon deaths, is measured based on a pre war population census from 1933.

That's a lie.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Fact remains the 6 million are alleged to have got murdered during the period 1941 to 1945. 

Not alleged. 6 millions Jewish people and 5 million others were killed by the Nazis in that period.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Fact remains, that’s impossible, that no jews, died from from other events, taking place during the year 1933 to 1941. You have a large gap of 8 years to trace them all back.

Ok. Explain it then.
Where did all these 2 million Jewish people go?

You believe that only 3-4 million were killed. Where's the other 2-3 million?

How many Jewish people were killed by other events and which events were they?
How many fled Europe and where did they go? Please show the census data to show the sudden increases in Jewish populations in these places.

Cheerful Spring2

King Mob wrote: »

Lol.


That's a lie.

Not alleged. 6 millions Jewish people and 5 million others were killed by the Nazis in that period.


Ok. Explain it then.
Where did all these 2 million Jewish people go?

You believe that only 3-4 million were killed. Where's the other 2-3 million?

How many Jewish people were killed by other events and which events were they?
How many fled Europe and where did they go? Please show the census data to show the sudden increases in Jewish populations in these places.

Stop accusing others of lying because you cant read.
The Jewish population was 9.5 million in 1933 ( all of Europe and Soviet union) no more extra millions!
Fact remains the historicial record is 3.5 million Jewish people survived the holocaust and war in Europe.
So you left with about six million disappeared.
Now you trying to claim the sites you posted did not state all six million got wiped out by the holocaust ( a period from 1941 to 1945)
It's sillyness.

King Mob

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Stop accusing others of lying because you cant read.

No, I'm pointing out the fact your are lying because you are lying. If you don't like people accusing you of lying, stop lying.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

The Jewish population was 9.5 million in 1933 ( all of Europe and Soviet union) no more extra millions!
Fact remains the historicial record is 3.5 million Jewish people survived the holocaust and war in Europe.
So you left with about six million disappeared.

Ok. You believe only 4 million died. That leaves 2 million unaccounted for.
What do you think happened to them.

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Now you trying to claim the sites you posted did not state all six million got wiped out by the holocaust ( a period from 1941 to 1945)
It's sillyness.

That's not what I claimed. You are misrepresenting me yet again.

Six million Jewish people were killed by the Nazis.

Cheerful Spring2

Wikipedia.
The Holocaust, also known as the Shoah, was the World War II genocide of the European Jews. Between 1941 and 1945, across German-occupied Europe, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population

9.5 million was the census (1933)
3.5 survived.
All six million are in a category of dying during the holocaust.
Logically makes no sense.