Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Personally, any Irish player that has to move to a foreign club is a massive loss to Ireland.

Especially one who has shown when playing in France he is a quality player. Best of luck to him anyway, he found a club quickly and I am sure he will be a success.

That's just not accurate, especially for a player who was never close to getting anywhere near and Ireland squad.

In fact, retaining them could be detrimental, as they could block game time from academy players who have higher potential ceilings.

In any case, this is going over old ground so I'll leave it there.

salmocab

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Just makes me wonder if Ryan needs to be paired up with a heavier lock, such as Toner or Roux, or soon Kleyn will be eligible too.
Beirne or Dillane might not be able to play alongside Ryan effectively.
Henderson is not the heaviest lock, but they are a likely pairing for the World Cup in my view.
We could be bullied by other packs with bigger locks, some other teams' locks are on average around 19 stone.
I'm thinking in particular about South Africa.

I think for the WC big games it will be Ryan and Toner. Henderson offers more off the bench than Toner could and finishing out games is more likely to require Henderson’s extra dynamism.

swiwi_

Clegg wrote: »

James Ryan wins Players Player of the Year and Young Player of the Year at the Ireland Rugby awards.

He's getting better and better.

And in other news, boards.ie is delighted to reveal the identity of Clegg.

"So Mrs Ryan, are you proud of your son?"

Clegg

swiwi_ wrote: »

And in other news, boards.ie is delighted to reveal the identity of Clegg.

"So Mrs Ryan, are you proud of your son?"

Excuse me?!

It's future Mrs to you.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

That's just not accurate, especially for a player who was never close to getting anywhere near and Ireland squad.

In fact, retaining them could be detrimental, as they could block game time from academy players who have higher potential ceilings.

In any case, this is going over old ground so I'll leave it there.

When he signed for Munster he was seen as a future Irish international.

Unfotuneatly that didn't happen. The sad fact remains that he will have played more minutes for Racing in 1 season than in 2 seasons with Munster.....

I think you will find that long after Hart is gone young academy players will be blocked at certain provinces.

Your going over old ground, you brought up Hart, not me

swiwi_

Clegg wrote: »

Excuse me?!

It's future Mrs to you.

Ryan is a bastard? :eek: :pac:

Shefwedfan

swiwi_ wrote: »

Ryan is a bastard? :eek: :pac:

Watching game of thrones?

swiwi_

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Watching game of thrones?

I specialise in watching trending series about 5 years after everyone else. So not yet, no...

joseywhales

Surely we want our players as light and as powerful as possible with a little left over to soak up hits, he has a fairly perfect body composition

arsebiscuits1

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Just makes me wonder if Ryan needs to be paired up with a heavier lock, such as Toner or Roux, or soon Kleyn will be eligible too.
Beirne or Dillane might not be able to play alongside Ryan effectively.
Henderson is not the heaviest lock, but they are a likely pairing for the World Cup in my view.
We could be bullied by other packs with bigger locks, some other teams' locks are on average around 19 stone.
I'm thinking in particular about South Africa.

Henderson is actually heavier than you think. Ulster currently have him at 117kgs and he's been up past 120kgs before

Buer

James Ryan isn't a physical monster but I struggle to believe that a 6'8" second row who looks completely at home in test rugby is still only 108kg. I would guess he's 4 or 5kg heavier than that.

bilston

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Just makes me wonder if Ryan needs to be paired up with a heavier lock, such as Toner or Roux, or soon Kleyn will be eligible too.
Beirne or Dillane might not be able to play alongside Ryan effectively.
Henderson is not the heaviest lock, but they are a likely pairing for the World Cup in my view.
We could be bullied by other packs with bigger locks, some other teams' locks are on average around 19 stone.
I'm thinking in particular about South Africa.

Surely Henderson is the most physical lock we have. Did you see the shift he put in against France who aren't exactly small? I think we missed him massively against England. It's certainly possible that Ryan and Toner start the big games, but Joe has rotated that a bit in the past so we will see.

Also I'm surprised to learn that Ryan is "only" 17 stone. It does seem quite light, but then it doesn't seem to be holding him back

mogwai81

I‘m never fully convinced by the weights of players on club websites. I not sure how often there updated. But unless a player mentions their weight in an interview, we don’t really have anything else to go on. Plus some players seem more explosive then others regardless of their weight.

stephen_n

Shefwedfan wrote: »

When he signed for Munster he was seen as a future Irish international.

Unfotuneatly that didn't happen. The sad fact remains that he will have played more minutes for Racing in 1 season than in 2 seasons with Munster.....

I think you will find that long after Hart is gone young academy players will be blocked at certain provinces.

Your going over old ground, you brought up Hart, not me

Seen by who as a future international? Posters on Boards who had probably never seen him play? He wasn’t good enough to make the Munster B squad, he was never going to make it near an Irish squad. Just because he played T14 doesn’t mean he’s good enough for the Irish Team.

salmocab

I can’t believe Hart is being talked about, he did okay in France and was certainly worth a punt for Munster but he didn’t work out, he’s moving on and good luck to the guy but he’s no real loss to Irish rugby at all.

aloooof

salmocab wrote: »

I can’t believe Hart is being talked about, he did okay in France and was certainly worth a punt for Munster but he didn’t work out, he’s moving on and good luck to the guy but he’s no real loss to Irish rugby at all.

My bad, I shouldn't have brought it up again.

In the interests of moving things along, Stockdale named at FB for Ulster. Could be an option for Ireland down the line?

Shefwedfan

stephen_n wrote: »

Seen by who as a future international? Posters on Boards who had probably never seen him play? He wasn’t good enough to make the Munster B squad, he was never going to make it near an Irish squad. Just because he played T14 doesn’t mean he’s good enough for the Irish Team.

Very strange, maybe Racing had run out of money and that is why they bought him. Oh wait, they also played him 19 times and he scored 63 points.

I never knew the Munster B squad was better to the Racing first team?

He was brought back at the stage that Ireland really only had Murray, a number of players had retired and he was potentially going to be an Irish squad player.

In 2 season at Munster he has played 16 times.....hardly much of a chance given is it?

It done with, he is left and I hope he hasa good career....he deserves it

Buer

Just to post what I posted before about Hart's season at Racing:

After Phillips left, they only had 3 scrum halves on their books and he was 3rd choice. Machenaud was with France for part of the season and Chauveau copped a bad injury forcing Racing to sign a joker in the second half of the season and use their academy to cover scrum half. That's why he got a number of starts.

The most indicative statistic of how he was genuintely rated in Racing was the fact that he was almost entirely unused during the Champions Cup campaign despite being on the bench a few times (due to no other option) in matches that were dead long before the final whistle. They flogged Machenaud in games already lost rather than bring him on.

Hart was never and will never be an option for Irish selection. He was a shot to nothing for Munster and he didn't work out at all. Best of luck to him but his level is a squad player at a mid-table side if we're being honest.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

My bad, I shouldn't have brought it up again.

In the interests of moving things along, Stockdale named at FB for Ulster. Could be an option for Ireland down the line?

For a big lad he is not great in the air....he is one of our best wingers....him and Earls are a great combination. I would prefer to see him stay on the wing and we give Larmour a chance....


Even for Leinster Larmour hasn't had a run of 5 games one after another at 15....he done very well in air against Saracens

Jump_In_Jack

mogwai81 wrote: »

I‘m never fully convinced by the weights of players on club websites. I not sure how often there updated. But unless a player mentions their weight in an interview, we don’t really have anything else to go on. Plus some players seem more explosive then others regardless of their weight.

The IRFU and every other source I can find has him at 108kg, 17 stone.
If he is actually heavier than that then fair enough, but if that is his weight it is a bit below the norm.
That said, maybe he is a new breed, tall and athletic and still powerful but lighter.
Brodie Retallick is the benchmark lock to compare everyone else to, and he's around 123kg, 19.4 stone, still athletic and powerful, but maybe not fair to compare everyone to him, he's a rare phenomenon.

Alun Wyn Jones is also 17 stone, it seems to be enough, particularly if paired with a heavier lock.

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

aloooof wrote: »

My bad, I shouldn't have brought it up again.

In the interests of moving things along, Stockdale named at FB for Ulster. Could be an option for Ireland down the line?

For a big lad he is not great in the air....he is one of our best wingers....him and Earls are a great combination. I would prefer to see him stay on the wing and we give Larmour a chance....


Even for Leinster Larmour hasn't had a run of 5 games one after another at 15....he done very well in air against Saracens

Not great in the air? His aerial battle with Adam Byrne in the quarter final is one of the best I've seen in years.

Former Former

Buer wrote: »

Just to post what I posted before about Hart's season at Racing:

Hart was never and will never be an option for Irish selection. He was a shot to nothing for Munster and he didn't work out at all. Best of luck to him but his level is a squad player at a mid-table side if we're being honest.

Yeah it's bizarre. How long can people point to one season Hart had at a mediocre French side, six or seven years ago?

He's found his level at this stage.

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

Not great in the air? His aerial battle with Adam Byrne in the quarter final is one of the best I've seen in years.

I would put him and Larmour around the same, Stockdale has the extra height over Larmour.



The amount of abuse Larmour gets on here about the high ball then we can't turn around and say Stockdale is any better


My point is both are still very young and learning, but in the Argentina match which everyone likes to hang Larmour about Stockdale should have dropped back and helped him, he didn't.....


Both Stockdale and Larmour have improved massively under the high ball, but I think Ireland would be stupid to move one of our best wingers into 15 when not giving a quality player like Larmour a decent chance

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

Yeah it's bizarre. How long can people point to one season Hart had at a mediocre French side, six or seven years ago?

He's found his level at this stage.

The season before he went to Munster, so 3 years ago.



Before that he was playing week in week out for Grenoble when they also ended up mid table at least.



It's over as I said, he is gone but don't try and make out he was useless before he went to Munster.

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Not great in the air? His aerial battle with Adam Byrne in the quarter final is one of the best I've seen in years.

I would put him and Larmour around the same, Stockdale has the extra height over Larmour.



The amount of abuse Larmour gets on here about the high ball then we can't turn around and say Stockdale is any better


My point is both are still very young and learning, but in the Argentina match which everyone likes to hang Larmour about Stockdale should have dropped back and helped him, he didn't.....


Both Stockdale and Larmour have improved massively under the high ball, but I think Ireland would be stupid to move one of our best wingers into 15 when not giving a quality player like Larmour a decent chance

I think they're both decent in the air. They're just unfairly being compared to Rob Kearney who is the best in the world in the air along with Ben Smith and he-who-must-not-be-named.

Having said that, Larmour has been caught out positionally a few times. He needs a lot more gametime there. The Henshaw experiment showed that Joe is looking for an alternative. It really wouldn't surprise me if Joe is asking Ulster to give him more of a look at Stockdale.

Former Former

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The season before he went to Munster, so 3 years ago.


Before that he was playing week in week out for Grenoble when they also ended up mid table at least.

It's over as I said, he is gone but don't try and make out he was useless before he went to Munster.

Not really. He had one or maybe two seasons of being first choice at Grenoble but when Charl MacLeod arrived, Hart was very much second choice.

He was never, ever as good as people here think he is/was. It was a nice story, the guy who couldn't make the Leinster academy goes abroad and proves them wrong, but there wasn't much more to it than that.

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

I think they're both decent in the air. They're just unfairly being compared to Rob Kearney who is the best in the world in the air along with Ben Smith and he-who-must-not-be-named.

Having said that, Larmour has been caught out positionally a few times. He needs a lot more gametime there. The Henshaw experiment showed that Joe is looking for an alternative. It really wouldn't surprise me if Joe is asking Ulster to give him more of a look at Stockdale.

Yes Larmour has got caught out....especially in the Toulouse away match


But as I said he has never got a run of 5 games at 15 for Leinster. Give him a proper shot and if he fails then look at alternatives. I think he will be the starting 15 next year for Leinster and we will see how good or bad he is then

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I think they're both decent in the air. They're just unfairly being compared to Rob Kearney who is the best in the world in the air along with Ben Smith and he-who-must-not-be-named.

Having said that, Larmour has been caught out positionally a few times. He needs a lot more gametime there. The Henshaw experiment showed that Joe is looking for an alternative. It really wouldn't surprise me if Joe is asking Ulster to give him more of a look at Stockdale.

Yes Larmour has got caught out....especially in the Toulouse away match


But as I said he has never got a run of 5 games at 15 for Leinster. Give him a proper shot and if he fails then look at alternatives. I think he will be the starting 15 next year for Leinster and we will see how good or bad he is then

Totally agree. Give him the entire first block of games next year leading up to the six nations to stake his claim. Full time fullback.

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

Not really. He had one or maybe two seasons of being first choice at Grenoble but when Charl MacLeod arrived, Hart was very much second choice.

He was never, ever as good as people here think he is/was. It was a nice story, the guy who couldn't make the Leinster academy goes abroad and proves them wrong, but there wasn't much more to it than that.

If he is so useless then why did Munster sign him?


Thatsmy final question on it.

dub_skav

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

The IRFU and every other source I can find has him at 108kg, 17 stone.
If he is actually heavier than that then fair enough, but if that is his weight it is a bit below the norm.
That said, maybe he is a new breed, tall and athletic and still powerful but lighter.
Brodie Retallick is the benchmark lock to compare everyone else to, and he's around 123kg, 19.4 stone, still athletic and powerful, but maybe not fair to compare everyone to him, he's a rare phenomenon.

Alun Wyn Jones is also 17 stone, it seems to be enough, particularly if paired with a heavier lock.

I'd be surprised if he's only 17 stone. I stood beside him and he was a hell of alot bigger then me - height and bulk - and I'm about 16 stone.

Then again, I'd imagine our body fat % might be slightly different