Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Shefwedfan

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I dont get this tiredness thing. He had had plenty of time off over the last 4 or 5 months. Can it not just be that he is too easily nullified by a solid defence that maintains discipline. This happens in October too when only 1 or 2 games have been played.

He always seems to drop off towards the end of season, it has been mentioned before.....I seem to remember Keith Wood mentioned it one year as well....


The one ball carrier in back row does not work, I like the look of Standar and Conan with another player, who ever it is.....


Ruddock, you have to feel for him, he was in squad and playing well and then keep getting injuries so dropped out, now playing well again but I doubt will make WC.....

AbusesToilets

Shefwedfan wrote: »

He always seems to drop off towards the end of season, it has been mentioned before.....I seem to remember Keith Wood mentioned it one year as well....


The one ball carrier in back row does not work, I like the look of Standar and Conan with another player, who ever it is.....


Ruddock, you have to feel for him, he was in squad and playing well and then keep getting injuries so dropped out, now playing well again but I doubt will make WC.....

The Irish pack should be the Leinster one with Henderson/ Dillane/ Roux and whomever Joe rates at hooker. It won't be, but it should. It doesn't seem to matter how poorly POM and Stander play these days.

thebaz

I remember getting hammered here for questioning POM lack of consistent form - I am an Irish fan firtslty , and would love if he could reproduce the form of against NZ and England last year on a regular basis , but I'll say it agin he lacks consistency to reproduce this form regularly. I am hoping CJ is just tired and needs a break and hopefully returns to his best for WC.

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

I remember getting hammered here for questioning POM lack of consistent form - I am an Irish fan firtslty , and would love if he could reproduce the form of against NZ and England last year on a regular basis , but I'll say it agin he lacks consistency to reproduce this form regularly. I am hoping CJ is just tired and needs a break and hopefully returns to his best for WC.

POM role is big moments and when you say lack of consistent form? What do you want as its bit unrealistic to expect that very high level performance on a regular basis..

Faugheen

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

POM role is big moments and when you say lack of consistent form? What do you want as its bit unrealistic to expect that very high level performance on a regular basis..

Then he needs to develop his game so that he doesn't go missing when not delivering the big moments.

Everyone will bring up the same games that he has shown his credentials but every big game he has done that, there are games where he just isn't effective outside of the line-out, where he remains one of the best operators in the game.

I really don't know why there's a queue of people to defend POM at any hint of criticism. It's excuse after excuse and I'm sorry but it has to come to a point where it's not good enough anymore and he has to stop going missing when the going gets tough.

The Lost Sheep

Faugheen wrote: »

Then he needs to develop his game so that he doesn't go missing when not delivering the big moments.

Everyone will bring up the same games that he has shown his credentials but every big game he has done that, there are games where he just isn't effective outside of the line-out, where he remains one of the best operators in the game.

I really don't know why there's a queue of people to defend POM at any hint of criticism. It's excuse after excuse and I'm sorry but it has to come to a point where it's not good enough anymore and he has to stop going missing when the going gets tough.

But he constantlys picked and doesnt need to do anything to game when its all part of unit and others are doing their share

Faugheen

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But he constantlys picked and doesnt need to do anything to game when its all part of unit and others are doing their share

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I've been saying.

In fact you've proved my point about people making excuse after excuse for him. When a back-row player is making one tackle in a big game like he did against Wales then it raises a massive question about what he actually offers when a team is beating us up.

He's supposed to be one of Irelands best players and vice-captain, so he should be held to that standard.

When Rory Best and Sexton aren't in form there's queues of people waiting to go in on them, but when anyone dares to question POM it's a different subject altogether.

AbusesToilets

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

POM role is big moments and when you say lack of consistent form? What do you want as its bit unrealistic to expect that very high level performance on a regular basis..

How is regularly having the least amount of tackles in the forwards high level performance? Having no impact carrying the ball, or being involved as a link man?

I find it curious that folks have rightly pointed out that Beirne shouldn't travel to the WC, due to his lack of impact in big games. Yet POM gets lauded for being "the best 6 in the world", despite having an equally limited impact.

People might claim it's blatant blue tinted bias, but if POM was A.N. Other, he wouldn't get within an asses roar of the Leinster team, let alone the Irish one.

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

How is regularly having the least amount of tackles in the forwards high level performance? Having no impact carrying the ball, or being involved as a link man?

I find it curious that folks have rightly pointed out that Beirne shouldn't travel to the WC, due to his lack of impact in big games. Yet POM gets lauded for being "the best 6 in the world", despite having an equally limited impact.

People might claim it's blatant blue tinted bias, but if POM was A.N. Other, he wouldn't get within an asses roar of the Leinster team, let alone the Irish one.

Arguments that have merit can be made for not including POM in the starting 15 for Ireland, but your last sentence is utter nonsense.

kingofthekong

I'm a Leinster fan but am really disappointed at Berines progress at Munster , he was literally unplayable when he was playing for the Scarlett's and caused Leinster constant issues every time we played with like 5 turnovers and the odd charge down, now playing for Munster he barely threatened the ruck at all, same happened with Copeland when he moved there from Cardiff, Copeland was outstanding and I think may have one an award while he was there, hope Beirne can get back to that form for Irelands sake

kingofthekong

Regarding O'mahony he shouldn't he anywhere near that Ireland team, simply not good enough had zero impact in any game I've seen him in in over a year a couple pro14 performances aside he doesn't add enough value to be in the team, doesn't matter the fan fair and memes he has on social media he's simply an inferior player to our other backrows

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

Regarding O'mahony he shouldn't he anywhere near that Ireland team, simply not good enough had zero impact in any game I've seen him in in over a year a couple pro14 performances aside he doesn't add enough value to be in the team, doesn't matter the fan fair and memes he has on social media he's simply an inferior player to our other backrows

It's a shame you missed the NZ game last November.

Utopia Parkway

Not a Leinster fan and I like POM but he's been completely anonymous in a number of big games recently. He's not a great ball carrier obviously but unless he's nicking lineouts or winning turnovers he's at nothing. Even his tackle stats are not great. There is definitely a decision to be made there now as regards his Ireland spot.

Shefwedfan

AbusesToilets wrote: »

How is regularly having the least amount of tackles in the forwards high level performance? Having no impact carrying the ball, or being involved as a link man?

I find it curious that folks have rightly pointed out that Beirne shouldn't travel to the WC, due to his lack of impact in big games. Yet POM gets lauded for being "the best 6 in the world", despite having an equally limited impact.

People might claim it's blatant blue tinted bias, but if POM was A.N. Other, he wouldn't get within an asses roar of the Leinster team, let alone the Irish one.

I’m not sure who has ever said POM is the best 6 in the World?

I’m not getting into the slagging of POM, I think he will start in WC. That has been on the cards since we lost Heaslip. If Pom starts then VDF drops out and they have Conan and Standar.

Also that rules out Beirne so best option is Henderson and Ryan. POM and Beirne are too similar and it has been shown with both in the team they can get bullied

The question is to you bring Beirne as he covers a number of positions? Or bring Dillane/Roux and have hendo to cover

troyzer

It wasn't so long ago that POM was a bench player for Ireland. Heaslip was our unquestionably best number 8 and Stander was too good to leave out of the starting lineup.

There's no reason why we can't have a repeat of this with Conan. He's really, really, really excellent this year. Consistently brilliant and I doubt many people are arguing against his inclusion in the XV. At the start of the season we were doubting he would get on the plane.

As far as Beirne goes, he's been neutralised a lot at Munster. But if you take the rose tinted glasses off for a minute you'd remember how effectively Leinster completely took him out of the game in the semi final last year. There has been a blue print to stop him for a while, you just have to be really good to do it. The problem is that pretty much any top test side and most top European sides are good enough.

Which is why he's excellent against weaker teams and can disappear in the big games. He doesn't get on the plane for me.

Interested Observer

I'm not sure POM has ever been a bench player for Ireland. It took him a little while to break back into the team after his injury in the RWC but apart from that spell he's been first choice for Schmidt's entire tenure, he's in the leadership group, etc. When he plays like yesterday he just doesn't offer very much, but I've little doubt he'll stay in the team. Stander has to go though.

BoardsMember

If people are adamant that Conan and Stander are nailed on for Ireland back row, then I would have VdF as the third all day long, now way I'd consider having POM in as 7 ahead of him.

For me, based on POM form, I'd prefer to have Ruddock on bench ahead of POM if that was the choice being considered, but I'm a self confessed massive Ruddock fan.

troyzer

Interested Observer wrote: »

I'm not sure POM has ever been a bench player for Ireland. It took him a little while to break back into the team after his injury in the RWC but apart from that spell he's been first choice for Schmidt's entire tenure, he's in the leadership group, etc. When he plays like yesterday he just doesn't offer very much, but I've little doubt he'll stay in the team. Stander has to go though.

2017 Six Nations. He spent most of the tournament on the bench or out of the 23. Same with the AIs before that.

I don't he think he played in the 2016 Six Nations, I can't remember if he was still injured from the world cup?

Burkie1203

troyzer wrote: »

2017 Six Nations. He spent most of the tournament on the bench or out of the 23. Same with the AIs before that.

I don't he think he played in the 2016 Six Nations, I can't remember if he was still injured from the world cup?

He was out for a year after the RWC

Bazzo

troyzer wrote: »

2017 Six Nations. He spent most of the tournament on the bench or out of the 23. Same with the AIs before that.

I don't he think he played in the 2016 Six Nations, I can't remember if he was still injured from the world cup?

Definitely still injured. Think he spent the guts of a year out

Interested Observer

troyzer wrote: »

2017 Six Nations. He spent most of the tournament on the bench or out of the 23. Same with the AIs before that.

I don't he think he played in the 2016 Six Nations, I can't remember if he was still injured from the world cup?

The only thing that has had him out of the team is that injury, being actually unavailable or getting back up to speed after a year out. I don't think he played a single game in the entire 15/16 season.

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

It wasn't so long ago that POM was a bench player for Ireland. Heaslip was our unquestionably best number 8 and Stander was too good to leave out of the starting lineup.

There's no reason why we can't have a repeat of this with Conan. He's really, really, really excellent this year. Consistently brilliant and I doubt many people are arguing against his inclusion in the XV. At the start of the season we were doubting he would get on the plane.

As far as Beirne goes, he's been neutralised a lot at Munster. But if you take the rose tinted glasses off for a minute you'd remember how effectively Leinster completely took him out of the game in the semi final last year. There has been a blue print to stop him for a while, you just have to be really good to do it. The problem is that pretty much any top test side and most top European sides are good enough.

Which is why he's excellent against weaker teams and can disappear in the big games. He doesn't get on the plane for me.

He got MOTM in both Exeter games and the Leinster game in Thomond. Three of Munster's biggest games all year. He can struggle against the absolute top tier, but lets not pretend he's a Pro14 dirt-tracker either.

troyzer

Interested Observer wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

2017 Six Nations. He spent most of the tournament on the bench or out of the 23. Same with the AIs before that.

I don't he think he played in the 2016 Six Nations, I can't remember if he was still injured from the world cup?

The only thing that has had him out of the team is that injury, being actually unavailable or getting back up to speed after a year out. I don't think he played a single game in the entire 15/16 season.

Fair enough and the season after?

Interested Observer

troyzer wrote: »

Fair enough and the season after?

Why are you asking me to repeat myself for the third time?

Former Former

POM was left out when Stander, SOB and Heaslip were all available in 2016-17. Stander was playing his best ever rugby in a green jersey and was right preferred.

Other than that, he's been nailed on for all of Joe's regime and I'd be very surprised if he's not starting at the RWC.

yerrahbah

And is captain when Rory Best is absent

troyzer

Interested Observer wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Fair enough and the season after?

Why are you asking me to repeat myself for the third time?

I'm not. You've explained why he didn't play in the 2016 Six Nations. I said in my comment I wasn't sure if he was still injured and he was, grand.

That was six months after the world cup. So what about another 12 months on when he was on the bench in the 2017 Six Nations watching Heaslip, Stander and O'Brien start?

I said it wasn't long ago that O'Mahony was on the bench because he couldn't get past Stander. Well, that was true. What changed was Heaslip getting his injury, Stander moving to 8 and POM getting into the XV. And it's been that way ever since with the 7 jersey changing hands.

What I'm saying is that there was a time in recent history where POM was not getting a start because he wasn't good enough. I'm suggesting that we remember that and stop lionising him like he came out of the womb in a green Jersey.

thomond2006

POM was injured at the start of the 2017 Six Nations and didn't even feature for Munster during the international period. He came off the bench against Wales and France. He was a late callup to start the final game against England, won MOTM and got onto the plane to NZ.

troyzer

thomond2006 wrote: »

POM was injured at the start of the 2017 Six Nations and didn't even feature for Munster during the international period. He was a late callup to start the final game against England, won MOTM and got onto the plane to NZ.

Did he not bench against France and Wales?

He was class against England. Everyone was in that game though, they were a team possessed by a singular desire to piss in James Haskell's cornflakes.

thomond2006

troyzer wrote: »

Did he not bench against France and Wales?

He was class against England. Everyone was in that game though, they were a team possessed by a singular desire to piss in James Haskell's cornflakes.

Yup, edited.

It's possible he was coming back into full match fitness. Anyway that was two years ago. Now he's a key member of the starting XV. I'm amazed he's being discussed after yesterday, for me he was quite effective despite an early knock.