Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

Totally agree. Give him the entire first block of games next year leading up to the six nations to stake his claim. Full time fullback.

If he fails then look at Addison or Conway at FB......I don't think the other FB that Munster signed has kicked on....


Cue 100's of post for TOH at Connacht but that ship has long sailed

Former Former

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If he is so useless then why did Munster sign him?


Thatsmy final question on it.

Squad depth. An Irish-qualified player who wouldn't cost much but could do a job in a pinch.

The better question is, if he's so good, why did Munster never pick him?

Squidgy Black

Hart was a squad player with Grenoble. He never really won the starting position in his 5 seasons there and was flip flopping between starting and on the bench. Towards the end of his tenure he was knocked down to 3rd choice.

He joined Racing in a period where the two scrumhalves ahead of him were injured or in national squads, and he got significant game time, and didn't do too bad. He was always sort of a middle of the road squad player, they're just seemed to be an over-inflation of his capability when he joined Munster by people who hadn't seen him play in the Top14 and just looked at the headline stats.

The fact that Neil Cronin pushed him out of the team after being called up from the AIL says it all really. Hart will likely go back to France and make a career for himself in Pro D2 or as a bench option for another Top14 team.

stephen_n

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If he is so useless then why did Munster sign him?


Thatsmy final question on it.

So Duncan Williams should be brought into the Irish setup? As being signed for Munster clearly makes you good enough and he was also well ahead of Harte.

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Former Former wrote: »

Not really. He had one or maybe two seasons of being first choice at Grenoble but when Charl MacLeod arrived, Hart was very much second choice.

He was never, ever as good as people here think he is/was. It was a nice story, the guy who couldn't make the Leinster academy goes abroad and proves them wrong, but there wasn't much more to it than that.

If he is so useless then why did Munster sign him?


Thatsmy final question on it.

Would you want Leinster to sign him now?

Shefwedfan

stephen_n wrote: »

So Duncan Williams should be brought into the Irish setup? As being signed for Munster clearly makes you good enough and he was also well ahead of Harte.

Did I say that? according to the posters on here hart is not good enough for the Munster B team. So in that case why bother signing him in the first place?

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

Would you want Leinster to sign him now?

No because we have a number of young players coming up for 9.



A few seasons ago after Leinster where short on 9's he could have been an option.

sxt

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

The IRFU and every other source I can find has him at 108kg, 17 stone.
If he is actually heavier than that then fair enough, but if that is his weight it is a bit below the norm.
That said, maybe he is a new breed, tall and athletic and still powerful but lighter.
Brodie Retallick is the benchmark lock to compare everyone else to, and he's around 123kg, 19.4 stone, still athletic and powerful, but maybe not fair to compare everyone to him, he's a rare phenomenon.

Alun Wyn Jones is also 17 stone, it seems to be enough, particularly if paired with a heavier lock.

I would take official weights with a grain of salt

Serena Williams official weight is 11 stone. Maybe when she first turned pro at 15..Her actual weight would be between 13 and 14 stone

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Would you want Leinster to sign him now?

No because we have a number of young players coming up for 9.



A few seasons ago after Leinster where short on 9's he could have been an option.

I suspect that's what's everyone else is saying, including in Munster. He didn't impress in training, he's just about 28 and there are younger players with more talent coming through

Podge_irl

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did I say that? according to the posters on here hart is not good enough for the Munster B team. So in that case why bother signing him in the first place?

Because they didn't know that at the time and he was a low risk signing? Because they thought they could improve him with coaching and found out they couldn't?

thomond2006

James Hart is going to a middling ProD2 club. That says enough. He missed most of this season through injury but Williams was already ahead of him and Neil Cronin was signed. Good luck to him but he's no loss.

Dubinusa

A few years back Henderson was listed at 6ft 5in. Last season he was listed at 6ft 7in.
Ross Molony was listed at 6ft 5in. Now he's listed at 6ft 6in
Henshaw was listed at 6ft 3in. He's about 6ft 1 in.
They appear to up the size of the players?

Bazzo

Dubinusa wrote: »

A few years back Henderson was listed at 6ft 5in. Last season he was listed at 6ft 7in.
Ross Molony was listed at 6ft 5in. Now he's listed at 6ft 6in
Henshaw was listed at 6ft 3in. He's about 6ft 1 in.
They appear to up the size of the players?

Heights and weights both tend to be a bit inaccurate/fudged. Henshaw is definitely taller than 6'1" though.

Clegg

Henderson and Stockdale were atrocious today. Not great heading into World Cup season. But they're young enough and have plenty of talent. They'll be ok for the tournament.

I'm very worried about Best though. I think he might have stayed on a year too long.

troyzer

Clegg wrote: »

Henderson and Stockdale were atrocious today. Not great heading into World Cup season. But they're young enough and have plenty of talent. They'll be ok for the tournament.

I'm very worried about Best though. I think he might have stayed on a year too long.

It's been a long season with a lot of injuries for all of them.

Give them the month off and I'm sure they'll be back to their best for Ireland camp.

jacothelad

troyzer wrote: »

It's been a long season with a lot of injuries for all of them.

Give them the month off and I'm sure they'll be back to their best for Ireland camp.

Ulster's line out is awful and while it isn't all down to the No 2, Best has been the common denominator when Ulster's and Ireland's l/o goes pear shaped. It's mystifying how professionals who practice endlessly - or should - can't throw a fecking ball in straight or to the right guy or to the right area or the guys can't time their lifts or jumps or fakes correctly or make sensible calls. When the line out is in diffs, throwing long is cretinously stupid.

troyzer

jacothelad wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

It's been a long season with a lot of injuries for all of them.

Give them the month off and I'm sure they'll be back to their best for Ireland camp.

Ulster's line out is awful and while it isn't all down to the No 2, Best has been the common denominator when Ulster's and Ireland's l/o goes pear shaped. It's mystifying how professionals who practice endlessly - or should - can't throw a fecking ball in straight or to the right guy or to the right area or the guys can't time their lifts or jumps or fakes correctly or make sensible calls. When the line out is in diffs, throwing long is cretinously stupid.

It's all psychological. He needs a few pints, deep breaths and look after himself for a while.

He'll come right, they all will. They've had their rough patch.

Shefwedfan

jacothelad wrote: »

Ulster's line out is awful and while it isn't all down to the No 2, Best has been the common denominator when Ulster's and Ireland's l/o goes pear shaped. It's mystifying how professionals who practice endlessly - or should - can't throw a fecking ball in straight or to the right guy or to the right area or the guys can't time their lifts or jumps or fakes correctly or make sensible calls. When the line out is in diffs, throwing long is cretinously stupid.

One bad line out and pressure is on.....you can have a nightmare then

Former Former

Best has always been a poor to average thrower. His all round game has always more than compensated and it's a position that we have no real international class alternative. Cronin has his own issues and is not remotely trusted by Joe, while Scannell and Herring are decent but aren't international quality.

So Best is probably still the best option but it's definitely a position of weakness. Especially if Best's ability around the park is on the wane.

stephen_n

jacothelad wrote: »

Ulster's line out is awful and while it isn't all down to the No 2, Best has been the common denominator when Ulster's and Ireland's l/o goes pear shaped. It's mystifying how professionals who practice endlessly - or should - can't throw a fecking ball in straight or to the right guy or to the right area or the guys can't time their lifts or jumps or fakes correctly or make sensible calls. When the line out is in diffs, throwing long is cretinously stupid.

At the same time, if it’s so easy why do so many hookers struggle with it. Lineouts are very complex, with lots of moving parts. I’d fully agree though that overthrows are criminal and Best does have a tendency towards those. Mind you none of the other hookers we have are any better.

bilston

Clegg wrote: »

Henderson and Stockdale were atrocious today. Not great heading into World Cup season. But they're young enough and have plenty of talent. They'll be ok for the tournament.

I'm very worried about Best though. I think he might have stayed on a year too long.

If it wasn't for the WC he'd be retiring now.

Of course if there isn't a better alternative he remains the best man for the job. We are at the end of a WC cycle so you can't phase him out to give a young gun a chance. He still has big performances in him though, think NZ and France for Ireland this season. Hopefully he times his big performances correctly in Japan.

PTH2009

We need to try and convince Lowe too stay with Leinster and us eventually. Could be a massive star for us

Think the 2020 season will be a very transitional period and we need to get new guys on board either on the field or verbally

sydthebeat

PTH2009 wrote: »

We need to try and convince Lowe too stay with Leinster and us eventually. Could be a massive star for us

Think the 2020 season will be a very transitional period and we need to get new guys on board either on the field or verbally

I'm sure the attraction of a green Jersey, along with the adoration of leinster fans, would me we enough to get him to sign any extension

troyzer

Today was the last interpro before Ireland camp and I think we can take a lot away from it.

Stock up:

Ross Byrne. There was a noticeable step up when Sexton came on but people are so used to it now that it's hard to appreciate how good Ross Byrne is. He just looked so comfortable.

VdF: No dispute now. He's Ireland's openside for the indefinite future. SOB might not travel at this rate and Deegan ran out of games to impress. He's my prime bolter candidate though.

Larmour: He noticeably improves with every opportunity at fullback. He's really starting to put it together now but he needs a stronger test.

Farrell: He was excellent. Munster's only real threat outside. He'll be strongly pushing for squad inclusion, it's probably between him and Conway for the 31st spot.

Conan: nailed on Ireland no.8 for me now. He's comfortably ahead of Stander on form and deserves the starting jersey in the warmups at the very least.

Stock down:

Beirne, POM. I'd put both of these in the same box because both of them are just anonymous in too many games. When they're not jackling or stealing lineout ball they just disappear against strong opposition. POM is in real danger of getting dropped from the XV. Stander, VDF and Conan sounds like the best backrow at the moment.

Ringrose. Had a few brainfarts this week and last, very unlike such a cerebral player. Farrell might put him under pressure in the warmups.

Conway. Didn't get much ball but didn't do much when he did. He's on the outside looking in I'd say come Japan.

Cronin. Few questionable throws again. Joe already doubts him, he needed to finish the season with a string of flawless throwing performances to get off his ****list.

The Munster front row: decent scrummaging but they're competing for impact spots in the squad and they did very little with ball in hand.

Stander. I have no idea what's wrong with him. It's like he has a tick slowly draining his super powers. He's rapidly becoming quite ordinary.

Burkie1203

troyzer wrote: »

Stander. I have no idea what's wrong with him. It's like he has a tick slowly draining his super powers. He's rapidly becoming quite ordinary.

Defences. Get the man to ground and fill the front line. Leinster do this very well the last few years against Munster. Just let Stander gain a metre or 2 and get the defence set. Let Munster run up blind alleys off slow ball against a set defence and Standers effectiveness is nullified. The argument is it takes 2 or 3 men out ofbthe game so it creates space but Munster didn't know what to do to exploit a man advantage with Lowe in the bin.

240 min v Saracens, Benetton and Leinster and 1 try scored and that should have been disallowed. That's fairly damning.

I always hear that Kleyn fills the "enforcer" role. That's because he offers very little else other then being big. He seems more interested in getting involved in nothing incidents.

Leinsters backrow today was miles ahead. Far better man for man and as a unit.

bilston

troyzer wrote: »

Today was the last interpro before Ireland camp and I think we can take a lot away from it.

Stock up:

Ross Byrne. There was a noticeable step up when Sexton came on but people are so used to it now that it's hard to appreciate how good Ross Byrne is. He just looked so comfortable.

VdF: No dispute now. He's Ireland's openside for the indefinite future. SOB might not travel at this rate and Deegan ran out of games to impress. He's my prime bolter candidate though.

Larmour: He noticeably improves with every opportunity at fullback. He's really starting to put it together now but he needs a stronger test.

Farrell: He was excellent. Munster's only real threat outside. He'll be strongly pushing for squad inclusion, it's probably between him and Conway for the 31st spot.

Conan: nailed on Ireland no.8 for me now. He's comfortably ahead of Stander on form and deserves the starting jersey in the warmups at the very least.

Stock down:

Beirne, POM. I'd put both of these in the same box because both of them are just anonymous in too many games. When they're not jackling or stealing lineout ball they just disappear against strong opposition. POM is in real danger of getting dropped from the XV. Stander, VDF and Conan sounds like the best backrow at the moment.

Ringrose. Had a few brainfarts this week and last, very unlike such a cerebral player. Farrell might put him under pressure in the warmups.

Conway. Didn't get much ball but didn't do much when he did. He's on the outside looking in I'd say come Japan.

Cronin. Few questionable throws again. Joe already doubts him, he needed to finish the season with a string of flawless throwing performances to get off his ****list.

The Munster front row: decent scrummaging but they're competing for impact spots in the squad and they did very little with ball in hand.

Stander. I have no idea what's wrong with him. It's like he has a tick slowly draining his super powers. He's rapidly becoming quite ordinary.

I know he ended up.in the losing team but I thought Farrell was really impressive today. Rory Scannell looked sharp too.

Jordan Larmour was very impressive and while he was off and on the pitch I though Henshaw went well.

Up front Conan and VDF stood out.

Hope Toner is ok.

Byrne was fine, but the gulf between him and Sexton is obvious. Leinster out Carbery under a lot of pressure and he overall he was fine. He's great when he gets an easy ride. That won't happen against the big boys at the WC though.

troyzer

bilston wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Today was the last interpro before Ireland camp and I think we can take a lot away from it.

Stock up:

Ross Byrne. There was a noticeable step up when Sexton came on but people are so used to it now that it's hard to appreciate how good Ross Byrne is. He just looked so comfortable.

VdF: No dispute now. He's Ireland's openside for the indefinite future. SOB might not travel at this rate and Deegan ran out of games to impress. He's my prime bolter candidate though.

Larmour: He noticeably improves with every opportunity at fullback. He's really starting to put it together now but he needs a stronger test.

Farrell: He was excellent. Munster's only real threat outside. He'll be strongly pushing for squad inclusion, it's probably between him and Conway for the 31st spot.

Conan: nailed on Ireland no.8 for me now. He's comfortably ahead of Stander on form and deserves the starting jersey in the warmups at the very least.

Stock down:

Beirne, POM. I'd put both of these in the same box because both of them are just anonymous in too many games. When they're not jackling or stealing lineout ball they just disappear against strong opposition. POM is in real danger of getting dropped from the XV. Stander, VDF and Conan sounds like the best backrow at the moment.

Ringrose. Had a few brainfarts this week and last, very unlike such a cerebral player. Farrell might put him under pressure in the warmups.

Conway. Didn't get much ball but didn't do much when he did. He's on the outside looking in I'd say come Japan.

Cronin. Few questionable throws again. Joe already doubts him, he needed to finish the season with a string of flawless throwing performances to get off his ****list.

The Munster front row: decent scrummaging but they're competing for impact spots in the squad and they did very little with ball in hand.

Stander. I have no idea what's wrong with him. It's like he has a tick slowly draining his super powers. He's rapidly becoming quite ordinary.

I know he ended up.in the losing team but I thought Farrell was really impressive today. Rory Scannell looked sharp too.

Jordan Larmour was very impressive and while he was off and on the pitch I though Henshaw went well.

Up front Conan and VDF stood out.

Hope Toner is ok.

Byrne was fine, but the gulf between him and Sexton is obvious. Leinster out Carbery under a lot of pressure and he overall he was fine. He's great when he gets an easy ride. That won't happen against the big boys at the WC though.

Scannell passes the eye test but ultimately 12 is the position Munster desperately need to upgrade the most.

Larmour is getting there. He runs horizontally and gets dumped a little too often for me but it pays off when he breaks the line as often as he does.

I'd say it's the end of Toner's season but hopefully he'll be back by the world cup. Even if he misses a few warm ups, four months is surely enough for most injuries that aren't knee related?

The gulf between any player and Sexton is obvious. But Byrne doesn't really bring down the team performance a jot. I think Buer said it first, he's Leinster's defacto starter at 10. His confidence and consistency is what allows Leinster to bench Sexton when they need to. Byrne is only just gone 24 as well. If I were him I'd focus on putting on 5-10kg so he can take the ball flatter and survive impacts as well as really focus on speed drills and explosivity. He's just lacking that little bit of athleticism at the moment.

Carbery was okay but it's hard to judge him too harshly. Murray is still struggling for form and he has no decent playmaker to take the pressure off him. He's really young and the entire team is being dumped on his back plus he's back from a long injury. When taking that into account and the fact that he was getting beaten up, I'd say he went well.

Shefwedfan

Standar has no real carrying players with him, so he is the main player for Munster to carry the ball. Towards the end of the season he suffers from pure tiredness. He made a very quick return at 6 nations as well

A summer off and he should be back but Ireland need 2 carriers in WC, if VDF is the 7 which it looks like then I would stick standar at 6 and Conan at 8

Or stick POM AT 7, has he played 7 before?

Burkie1203

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Standar has no real carrying players with him, so he is the main player for Munster to carry the ball. Towards the end of the season he suffers from pure tiredness. He made a very quick return at 6 nations as well

A summer off and he should be back but Ireland need 2 carriers in WC, if VDF is the 7 which it looks like then I would stick standar at 6 and Conan at 8

Or stick POM AT 7, has he played 7 before?

I dont get this tiredness thing. He had had plenty of time off over the last 4 or 5 months. Can it not just be that he is too easily nullified by a solid defence that maintains discipline. This happens in October too when only 1 or 2 games have been played.

AbusesToilets

Leinster backrow were light-years better than Munster's, the whole pack were frankly. Stander and POM offer very little presently. I wouldn't have either of them in the 23.