Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

kingofthekong

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Back in training but unlikely to feature this season. Has also never played a game at 7 at any level, he's an out and out 6.

Hes had a career plagued with injuries..

kingofthekong

Deleted User wrote: »

I never realised Nagle was international standard until he got to Leinster.

I dont think anyone in Leinster thinks Nagle is international standard - thats why hes up in Ulster

Erik Shun

kingofthekong wrote: »

I dont think anyone in Leinster thinks Nagle is international standard - thats why hes up in Ulster

I hope Jack McGrath isn't reading this thread !

realhorrorshow

kingofthekong wrote: »

Hes had a career plagued with injuries..

Yeah he has, guess it's a knock on effect of his aggressive play. Heard that management have encouraged him to mind himself a little bit. Despite all the injuries he's still managed 57 appearances at 24 years old, time is on his side.

The Parish King

On the topic of ‘bolters’ and players who hadn’t had much top level exposure (i.e. regular Pro 14 and the odd European match day squad), prior to World Cups - was Tadhg Furlong in this boat back in 2015? (I genuinely haven’t a clue, but think I recall him making his debut in the warm-ups).

In a similar vein, wouldn’t a lot of the Connacht players fall in to this space as well with the lack of Champions Cup rugby (no disrespect but Challenge Cup can be a bit of a lucky dip with squad rotations due to league priorities)? However guys like Carty and Roux have been playing well for a couple seasons now which helps mitigate this, and I’ve no issue with them making the step up, especially after impressing me during the 6N.

Just thought it was an interesting lens on this discussion regarding the top level exposure expected from the other three provinces!

The Lost Sheep

The Parish King wrote: »

On the topic of ‘bolters’ and players who hadn’t had much top level exposure (i.e. regular Pro 14 and the odd European match day squad), prior to World Cups - was Tadhg Furlong in this boat back in 2015? (I genuinely haven’t a clue, but think I recall him making his debut in the warm-ups).

In a similar vein, wouldn’t a lot of the Connacht players fall in to this space as well with the lack of Champions Cup rugby (no disrespect but Challenge Cup can be a bit of a lucky dip with squad rotations due to league priorities)? However guys like Carty and Roux have been playing well for a couple seasons now which helps mitigate this, and I’ve no issue with them making the step up, especially after impressing me during the 6N.

Just thought it was an interesting lens on this discussion regarding the top level exposure expected from the other three provinces!

Furlong only started 7 games for Leinster before 2015 world cup and made irish debut in warm ups.
Connacht players dont fall into this space. Plenty of high level exposure in that regard so not similar at all to Furling for me.

Trojan

Also, tighthead prop was a position that up until recently, we didn't seem to have a lot of depth at, given that we had either one of John Hayes or Mike Ross start ~80 games straight.

AbusesToilets

I think Wales stand as an interesting counter point to the argument that players need more exposure to top level club rugby to be viable options for international selection. How many of their squad would have experience in the HC knock out stages, or even the Pro14?

Squidgy Black

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I think Wales stand as an interesting counter point to the argument that players need more exposure to top level club rugby to be viable options for international selection. How many of their squad would have experience in the HC knock out stages, or even the Pro14?

Majority of them through Scarlets, Ospreys, Cardiff or teams in England. Gatland didn't include any uncapped players for this 6 Nations in his squad either.

stephen_n

Gatland would hardly be an example of a coach who is quick to bring young talent through either.

Clegg

stephen_n wrote: »

Gatland would hardly be an example of a coach who is quick to bring young talent through either.

Not so sure about that. I've always felt that Gatland was one of the more progressive coaches when it came to selection. It goes all the back to 2000 with Ireland too. He cleared out a lot of the old guard and gave starting debuts to Stringer, RoG and Horgan all in the same game. We beat Scotland 44-22.

He also gave caps to North and Biggar when they were 18 & 19 respectively. He'll work with what he has and if you're good enough you'll be selected. He doesn't care about inexperience. It's what I've always liked about Gatland as a coach.

stephen_n

Clegg wrote: »

Not so sure about that. I've always felt that Gatland was one of the more progressive coaches when it came to selection. It goes all the back to 2000 with Ireland too. He cleared out a lot of the old guard and gave starting debuts to Stringer, RoG and Horgan all in the same game. We beat Scotland 44-22.

He also gave caps to North and Biggar when they were 18 & 19 respectively. He'll work with what he has and if you're good enough you'll be selected. He doesn't care about inexperience. It's what I've always liked about Gatland as a coach.

Yeah but he has also stuck with players long beyond their sell by dates too, Jamie Roberts, Mike Phillips to name a few. Like any other coach he makes pragmatic decisions, North was a freak and demanded inclusion. Like James Ryan with Ireland. Gatland doesn’t rush players through anymore than Joe does, anymore than any international coach does. Can’t really think of any Welsh player that’s come through off the back of second string performances for their club.

errlloyd

He called Keelon Giles up from an u20s world cup straight to the Wales tour of New Zealand. Giles didn't play, but he wasn't messing about. Seb Davies was capped this year out of nowhere.

Tom Prydie was capped at 17, he'd played 7 minutes of rugby for the Ospreys and had never met or spoke to Warren Gatland.

I think he does cap people young. Welsh regions bring people through young. I'm not certain it's a good thing though.

Shefwedfan

errlloyd wrote: »

He called Keelon Giles up from an u20s world cup straight to the Wales tour of New Zealand. Giles didn't play, but he wasn't messing about. Seb Davies was capped this year out of nowhere.

Tom Prydie was capped at 17, he'd played 7 minutes of rugby for the Ospreys and had never met or spoke to Warren Gatland.

I think he does cap people young. Welsh regions bring people through young. I'm not certain it's a good thing though.

I wouldn't say that, Jackman talked before about why WRU bought Dragons or fund them


The reason is the amount of players from U20 that actually more up is very very poor in Wales. They have a huge amount of players that are lost or end up playing lower tier in England. Dragons remit was to pick up some of these players that get dropped by regions and try and promote them to senior sides



He used Ireland as an example of someone who had a better rate from U20 to senior

Former Observer

Never even heard of matt deacon until today

Richie_Rich89

Best uncapped XXIII at the moment?

1. Eric O'Sullivan
2. Shane Delahunt
3. Ross Kane
4. Gavin Thornbury
5. Darren O'Shea
6. Sean O'Brien
7. Conor Oliver
8. Max Deegan
9. Caolin Blade
10. Tyler Bleyendaal
11. Barry Daly
12. Dan Goggin/Conor O'Brien
13. Tom Farrell
14. Robert Baloucoune
15. Mike Haley

16. Kevin O'Byrne
17. Ed Byrne
18. Ciaran Parker
19. Ross Molony
20. Eoin McKeon
21. Nick McCarthy
22. J.J. Hanrahan
23. Darragh Leader

Also in the running:
LH: Buckley, Dooley, Loughman
HK: Byrne
TH: Robertson-McCoy, Abdaladze, O'Toole
LK: Wycherley, O'Connor, Kearney
BR: Doris, Timoney, Coombes, Murphy, Boyle, Penny, Connors
SH: Williams, Shanahan
FH: Burns, Frawley
Backs: Ludik, Kelleher, Wootton, Lyttle, Jimmy O'Brien

Mad that Hanrahan never got a token cap against USA or the like

Shefwedfan

Burns in Ulster before Bleyendaal

kingofthekong

stephen_n wrote: »

Gatland would hardly be an example of a coach who is quick to bring young talent through either.

seriously? he capped Prydie and North when they were in there teens...

Former Former

kingofthekong wrote: »

seriously? he capped Prydie and North when they were in there teens...

And D'Arcy and O'Driscoll...

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

Mad that Hanrahan never got a token cap against USA or the like

Madder if he had. Where did the line that he was a top player ever come from anyway ? Was he just riding a wave as a messianic hope for a post golden era Munster faithful for whom true judgement had become warped ?

errlloyd

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Mad that Hanrahan never got a token cap against USA or the like

Madder if he had. Where did the line that he was a top player ever come from anyway ? Was he just riding a wave as a messianic hope for a post golden era Munster faithful for whom true judgement had become warped ?

He got nominated for world u20 player of the year. The hype was real. I thought he was a great 12 at Northampton

Squidgy Black

errlloyd wrote: »

He got nominated for world u20 player of the year. The hype was real. I thought he was a great 12 at Northampton

MOTM in his first start, and then multiple MOTM awards in his second contributed to the hype also.

In fairness, he looked to be a great prospect, just never won the starting 10 jersey from Keatley before he left, and had a bad run of injuries over in Northampton.

bilston

errlloyd wrote: »

He got nominated for world u20 player of the year. The hype was real. I thought he was a great 12 at Northampton

To be fair when you think back to that U20 tournament he did some great things but it did cover up the inconsistencies in his game, the kicks into touch in the full and things like that. I think we all just thought that was down to the inconsistency of youth. He just hasn't been able to find that consistency. I suppose there are similarities with Jeremy Staunton. You mention his time at the Saints. I've always thought 12 would be a good position for him. He wouldn't have as much game management to do there while still being able to display his footballing skills. The move worked well for Paddy Wallace, maybe it could work for JJ. However whether a 10-12 axis of Carbery and JJ would work is highly debatable though. A footballing 12 maybe works better outside a less flamboyant 10

baas baa

Thought Hanrahan was fortunate to get nominated for the player of the year at the time, his performances were typical of his career to date, some mercurial touches that made great highlight reels but lots of inconsistent play as well iirc. Henderson was by far the best performer on that team and it was a travesty that he didn't get nominated, I don't recall a stronger tournament by an Irish player at a JWC, his performance in the win against S.A. in particular was incredible.

Richie_Rich89

Hanrahan was messed up by Foley, truth be told. He was coming along nicely under Penney. He was given three starts at 10 in his first season, and eleven starts at 10 in his second season. Then Foley came along and his gametime plateaued at 11 starts that season. The thing is that only three of them were at 10.

Shefwedfan

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Hanrahan was messed up by Foley, truth be told. He was coming along nicely under Penney. He was given three starts at 10 in his first season, and eleven starts at 10 in his second season. Then Foley came along and his gametime plateaued at 11 starts that season. The thing is that only three of them were at 10.

I agree. Foley had some sort of issue with him and never played him. Hence why the move to Northampton> Unfortunealty for Hanrahan that didn't work out, he goes back to Munster and still doesn't really get chance.



MoM in Europe one week, the next week I don't think he even made the bench?

Dubinusa

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I agree. Foley had some sort of issue with him and never played him. Hence why the move to Northampton> Unfortunealty for Hanrahan that didn't work out, he goes back to Munster and still doesn't really get chance.



MoM in Europe one week, the next week I don't think he even made the bench?

Yea, I think Foley halted his development. I think Keatley was playing well, but not outstanding.
Hannahan is in a place now where he's not going to be Munsters 10 and back up may be a reach too.
Back when Hanrahan left Munster, he was playing well and I thought should have been the starter.

Shefwedfan

Dubinusa wrote: »

Yea, I think Foley halted his development. I think Keatley was playing well, but not outstanding.
Hannahan is in a place now where he's not going to be Munsters 10 and back up may be a reach too.
Back when Hanrahan left Munster, he was playing well and I thought should have been the starter.

Not to speak bad about Foley but he wasn’t ready to take over the top job with Munster, also Munster itself seemed to be a mess at that stage

They made a mess with hanrahan

The Rape of Lucretia

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I agree. Foley had some sort of issue with him and never played him. Hence why the move to Northampton> Unfortunealty for Hanrahan that didn't work out, he goes back to Munster and still doesn't really get chance.

That all kinda supports the contention that its Hanrahan that isnt up to much rather than Foley, luck, position, the problems. Unable to get ahead of Keatley pretty much confirms his ceiling was never too high, and it was just early flash that misled some to seriously overrate him.