Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Jump_In_Jack

stephen_n wrote: »

Deegan has barely been tested at Pro14 as an open side. There is no fear of him going to the RWC as a starting openside when he hasn’t even started there in Europe.

You say that, but who are you proposing is going to be the 7 for the RWC?
Van der Flier is out for the rest of the season.
Leavy is out for the RWC.
O'Brien looks off the pace.
Murphy is not really impressing.
O'Donnell is rehabbing his shoulder.

Max Deegan has been impressing at 7 for Leinster, and Jack O'Donoghue gave a brief glimmer of form before picking up a head injury last week.

There aren't many obvious options putting their hand up right now.

Sean Reidy is potentially another in the mix, I like the dynamism he brings, but is he good enough for a RWC spot, I don't think so.

troyzer

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

You say that, but who are you proposing is going to be the 7 for the RWC?
Van der Flier is out for the rest of the season.
Leavy is out for the RWC.
O'Brien looks off the pace.
Murphy is not really impressing.
O'Donnell is rehabbing his shoulder.

Max Deegan has been impressing at 7 for Leinster, and Jack O'Donoghue gave a brief glimmer of form before picking up a head injury last week.

There aren't many obvious options putting their hand up right now.

Joe took four flankers last time with Ruddock being called up when POM was ruled out for the rest of the tournament. I can see him taking four again: Stander, POM, VdF and Conan. If he takes five, it'll be a dogfight between Ruddock, Nordi, SOB and Deegan.

Squidgy Black

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

You say that, but who are you proposing is going to be the 7 for the RWC?
Van der Flier is out for the rest of the season.
Leavy is out for the RWC.
O'Brien looks off the pace.
Murphy is not really impressing.
O'Donnell is rehabbing his shoulder.

Max Deegan has been impressing at 7 for Leinster, and Jack O'Donoghue gave a brief glimmer of form before picking up a head injury last week.

There aren't many obvious options putting their hand up right now.

It's likely that VdF will be back before the RWC, and on "off-pace" SOB or Jordi, or the likes of Ruddock/POM/Conan will be ahead of Deegan in the pecking order for the 7 jersey despite it not being their primary position. Deegan has played 7 a handful of times if even for Leinster at Pro14 against weaker sides. His primary position is number 8.

troyzer

Squidgy Black wrote: »

It's likely that VdF will be back before the RWC, and on "off-pace" SOB or Jordi, or the likes of Ruddock/POM/Conan will be ahead of Deegan in the pecking order for the 7 jersey despite it not being their primary position. Deegan has played 7 a handful of times if even for Leinster at Pro14 against weaker sides. His primary position is number 8.

It's early days but I think you need to give him more credit than that. He just played on a pitch with Ruddock, Barclay, Leavy, Mata and Watson and he was the best backrower out there. I know he was playing 8 there but still.

Zzippy

Dickie10 wrote: »

lads are the rumors about conor murray true? i was shocked to be honest

Mod: Don't even attempt to post rumours about players.

Squidgy Black

troyzer wrote: »

It's early days but I think you need to give him more credit than that. He just played on a pitch with Ruddock, Barclay, Leavy, Mata and Watson and he was the best backrower out there. I know he was playing 8 there but still.

Look at it this way. Catapulting a 22 year old who's never been in a training camp with the Ireland squad and has about 3 caps for Leinster at openside flanker, with no knockout rugby experience.

Don't get me wrong, I think Deegan is a fantastic prospect, but it's way too blue-eyed to think he's going to get called up to the RWC unless a plague strikes the Irish backrow and clears out all of the players with experience.

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

It's early days but I think you need to give him more credit than that. He just played on a pitch with Ruddock, Barclay, Leavy, Mata and Watson and he was the best backrower out there. I know he was playing 8 there but still.

That's a sample size of one game, it means virtually nothing in isolation.

Stander and Conan are now both almost certain to travel, so I can't see us bringing another back-rower who is primarily an 8. That's even aside of his relative lack of experience.

troyzer

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Look at it this way. Catapulting a 22 year old who's never been in a training camp with the Ireland squad and has about 3 caps for Leinster at openside flanker, with no knockout rugby experience.

Don't get me wrong, I think Deegan is a fantastic prospect, but it's way too blue-eyed to think he's going to get called up to the RWC unless a plague strikes the Irish backrow and clears out all of the players with experience.

aloooof wrote: »

That's a sample size of one game, it means virtually nothing in isolation.

Stander and Conan are now both almost certain to travel, so I can't see us bringing another back-rower who is primarily an 8. That's even aside of his relative lack of experience.

I don't think he's making the world cup squad but I do think he's the backrow bolter if there's going to be one.

We need another openside. Conan and Stander both cover 8. Henderson and POM both cover 6 (Beirne as well if he goes). But right now on paper, we've only got VdF as the dead cert to cover 7. SOB might still go.

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

I don't think he's making the world cup squad but I do think he's the backrow bolter if there's going to be one.

Depends on your definition of bolter, but I'd have JOD ahead of Deegan on this list.

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

I don't think he's making the world cup squad but I do think he's the backrow bolter if there's going to be one.

We need another openside. Conan and Stander both cover 8. Henderson and POM both cover 6 (Beirne as well if he goes). But right now on paper, we've only got VdF as the dead cert to cover 7. SOB might still go.

Nordi is a 7, his move to Ulster was so he could start at 7 and push himself into the Ireland starting team.

Joe likes him and at the moment I think he is the starting 7 for Ireland

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Nordi is a 7, his move to Ulster was so he could start at 7 and push himself into the Ireland starting team.

Joe likes him and at the moment I think he is the starting 7 for Ireland

Starting 7? Ah here.

Mr Tickle

troyzer wrote: »

Starting 7? Ah here.

I'd believe it. He was Joe's pick in Chicago with VDF on the bench. with the current injures he's the next most experienced.

troyzer

Mr Tickle wrote: »

I'd believe it. He was Joe's pick in Chicago with VDF on the bench. with the current injures he's the next most experienced.

Chicago 2016? Sure back then James Ryan was in nappies. It has zero relevance to what's happening now.

Faugheen

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

You say that, but who are you proposing is going to be the 7 for the RWC?
Van der Flier is out for the rest of the season.
Leavy is out for the RWC.
O'Brien looks off the pace.
Murphy is not really impressing.
O'Donnell is rehabbing his shoulder.

Max Deegan has been impressing at 7 for Leinster, and Jack O'Donoghue gave a brief glimmer of form before picking up a head injury last week.

There aren't many obvious options putting their hand up right now.

Sean Reidy is potentially another in the mix, I like the dynamism he brings, but is he good enough for a RWC spot, I don't think so.

Murphy isn't impressing?

Based on what, exactly? He was excellent on Saturday.

Mr Tickle

troyzer wrote: »

Chicago 2016? Sure back then James Ryan was in nappies. It has zero relevance to what's happening now.

objectively both of those sentences are wrong.

We have more or less the same back rows available. Jordi and SOB are the current options and of the two Jordi is playing better.

Faugheen

troyzer wrote: »

Chicago 2016? Sure back then James Ryan was in nappies. It has zero relevance to what's happening now.

VDF and Leavy are gone at the moment, and SOB isn't hitting the same heights.

Taking all of this into account and if the World Cup started tomorrow, then Jordi is absolutely your starting 7.

Only other 7 close to him at the moment would be Jack O'Donoghue, who is really coming back well from his injury. I think he's a bit off VDF, Leavy and Murphy but there's at least three fit open sides that would get in the Ireland team ahead of Deegan at the moment.

Former Former

If the World Cup was tomorrow, SOB would be the starting 7.

If VDF is back fit for the warm-ups, he'll be the main contender.

I'm a huge fan of Murphy but the evidence of the 6N is that he's a bit off the pace in terms of selection.

Mr Tickle

Former Former wrote: »

If the World Cup was tomorrow, SOB would be the starting 7.

If VDF is back fit for the warm-ups, he'll be the main contender.

I'm a huge fan of Murphy but the evidence of the 6N is that he's a bit off the pace in terms of selection.

Incidentally if the WC started tomorrow we'd be playing some combination of Carty, Burns, Tyler or even Rory Scannell at 10. Rugby is just a lottery really.

Clegg

Jack Conan's form is close to warranting a starting spot imo. He's always been an excellent carrier and offloader, but he's upped his workrate in recent seasons. I don't think Schmidt will swap Stander out, but the gap is getting closer and closer between the two players.

troyzer

Faugheen wrote: »

VDF and Leavy are gone at the moment, and SOB isn't hitting the same heights.

Taking all of this into account and if the World Cup started tomorrow, then Jordi is absolutely your starting 7.

Only other 7 close to him at the moment would be Jack O'Donoghue, who is really coming back well from his injury. I think he's a bit off VDF, Leavy and Murphy but there's at least three fit open sides that would get in the Ireland team ahead of Deegan at the moment.

The world cup isn't starting tomorrow. It's starting after VdF is fit.

You know, the guy who started against the All Blacks with Murphy on the bench? I imagine that's a bit more relevant to the All Blacks game two years before that.

Mr Tickle

troyzer wrote: »

The world cup isn't starting tomorrow. It's starting after VdF is fit.

You know, the guy who started against the All Blacks with Murphy on the bench? I imagine that's a bit more relevant to the All Blacks game two years before that.

Well the post you scoffed at included the words "at the moment".

Shefwedfan

troyzer wrote: »

Starting 7? Ah here.

Nordi has been in cracking form all season for Ulster. Including on Saturday when he was the better player to SOB.



He had a bad run in 6 nations as they stuck him in at 8 and he hasn't played their since last season, it showed.



When SOB returns to form and if he can keep off injury then of course he starts. The next option at the moment would be Nordi with VDF close to him.....

Shefwedfan

Clegg wrote: »

Jack Conan's form is close to warranting a starting spot imo. He's always been an excellent carrier and offloader, but he's upped his workrate in recent seasons. I don't think Schmidt will swap Stander out, but the gap is getting closer and closer between the two players.

My choice if it was today
Conan 8
POM 7
Standar 6

Jump_In_Jack

Faugheen wrote: »

Murphy isn't impressing?

Based on what, exactly? He was excellent on Saturday.

OK, that's purely my own opinion, I've watched a lot of his performances this season, including last week, and I honestly thought he was below par.

The fact he seems to be behind VdF, Leavy, and O'Brien for starting 7, and behind Conan for the bench would also suggest that the Irish selectors also view Murphy as a backup these days.

Shefwedfan

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

OK, that's purely my own opinion, I've watched a lot of his performances this season, including last week, and I honestly thought he was below par.

The fact he seems to be behind VdF, Leavy, and O'Brien for starting 7, and behind Conan for the bench would also suggest that the Irish selectors also view Murphy as a backup these days.

I have watched a lot of Ulster this season and anytime I seen Murphy he was one of the best players on th epitch. This included match's against Scarlets and Racing etc.



Same can be said of Saturday.....

bilston

Murphy has been excellent for Ulster. He isn't a barnstorming carrying back rowers, but then he never was.

Jump_In_Jack

bilston wrote: »

Murphy has been excellent for Ulster. He isn't a barnstorming carrying back rowers, but then he never was.

What would you rate as his strengths though?
Does he still have what it takes to step up to International level?
To get selected, either he would need to be exceptional at something, eg. tackling count, breakdown presence, turnovers won, consistently carrying over the gainline etc.,
or be a very impressive all-rounder.
I think he hasn't been exceptional but has been solid enough to be a squad player for the RWC.
FWIW I used to rate him highly, but lately I haven't seen the same speed and energy around the pitch that he had a couple of seasons ago.
Again, all my opinion, Ulster fans could give a better analysis of how is is performing.

Faugheen

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

What would you rate as his strengths though?
Does he still have what it takes to step up to International level?
To get selected, either he would need to be exceptional at something, eg. tackling count, breakdown presence, turnovers won, consistently carrying over the gainline etc.,
or be a very impressive all-rounder.
I think he hasn't been exceptional but has been solid enough to be a squad player for the RWC.
FWIW I used to rate him highly, but lately I haven't seen the same speed and energy around the pitch that he had a couple of seasons ago.
Again, all my opinion, Ulster fans could give a better analysis of how is is performing.

Just 3 days ago he was their top carrier, second highest tackler and I'm pretty sure he stole a ball.

He's one of the hardest workers around the pitch. He's not world class but he's an excellent all-round back-row forward.

kingofthekong

My backrow on form right now would be:

8. conan
7. VDF
6. Tadhg Beirne

With Ruddock and deegan, stander fighting for bench

Stander could well push himself back in but has been poor lately

Peter o'mahony as been anonymous for most of the season and is in the same poor form that got him dropped by Joe before

Some people are suggesting:

8. stander
7. Murphy
6. o'mahony

^^^ this backrow gets us whipped by any team in the top 5 at the WC imo

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

With Ruddock and deegan, stander fighting for bench

Stander could well push himself back in but has been poor lately

The suggestion that Stander is in competition with Deegan for a spot is, tbh, ridiculous.

Stander is the incumbent 8. He doesn't need to "push himself back in". I can't see Conan starting ahead of him come the RWC, nevermind Deegan getting picked ahead of him.

kingofthekong wrote: »

Peter o'mahony as been anonymous for most of the season and is in the same poor form that got him dropped by Joe before

Some people are suggesting:

8. stander
7. Murphy
6. o'mahony

^^^ this backrow gets us whipped by any team in the top 5 at the WC imo

Some people have very short memories. POM got MOTM against the best team in the world as recently as, oh, November. The entire backrow you mentioned have all started in victories over the All Blacks.