Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

AbusesToilets

stephen_n wrote: »

The chances of any player who has had no time in camp so far making the World Cup squad is zero. This is just shiny new toy syndrome at its worst. Apart from the fact VDF is due back for the warm up games. SOB, Ruddock and Nordie would all be considered at openside. Beyond that you have JOD who has plenty of experience in camp. Then the option of a Conan, Stander and POM backrow. All of which is far more likely to happen. Than a number 8 who has happened to play a couple of dirttracker Pro 14 games at 7, with no exposure to Ireland squads. Coming into the RWC squad, let alone the match day 23 or starting team.

If Deegan starts and is successful for Leinster in the knock outs, he absolutely should be considered for selection. Form matters. Not to mention there will be an a preseason camp in the run up to the WC. If he's performing well enough, he could go.

This attitude that it's too late to bring in a new player is ridiculous. Same thinking left Heaslip behind when he was tearing it up as a new player coming thru.

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

If Deegan starts and is successful for Leinster in the knock outs, he absolutely should be considered for selection. Form matters. Not to mention there will be an a preseason camp in the run up to the WC. If he's performing well enough, he could go.

This attitude that it's too late to bring in a new player is ridiculous. Same thinking left Heaslip behind when he was tearing it up as a new player coming thru.

Of course he should (and will) be considered. No one is saying otherwise. But suggesting he'll be considered to the point of Stander dropping out of the 23 has as close to 0% chance of happening as makes no odds.

Erik Shun

May as well say Jack O'D is a bolter so at this point

Former Observer

aloooof wrote: »

POM got MOTM against the best team in the world as recently as, oh, November.

Maybe so, but it feels like twenty years ago.

AbusesToilets

Former Observer wrote: »

Maybe so, but it feels like twenty years ago.

MOTM are a terrible means of judging a player, especially when former players are the ones awarding them.

Mr Tickle

AbusesToilets wrote: »

MOTM are a terrible means of judging a player, especially when former players are the ones awarding them.

You're right, the number of awards a guy gets isn't a great comparison. But at the same time it's a very checkable way to prove that that a guy has played well. recently.

Whether or not he was the best player on the pitch that day is anyone's guess. We can probably assume that he played well.

AbusesToilets

Mr Tickle wrote: »

You're right, the number of awards a guy gets isn't a great comparison. But at the same time it's a very checkable way to prove that that a guy has played well. recently.

Whether or not he was the best player on the pitch that day is anyone's guess. We can probably assume that he played well.

Yes and no. I think you have to view them in conjunction with the players performance stats. POM has some "big" moments, gets MOTM, he's had a great match. Stats say he's bottom of the list in terms of workload, therefore he's had a poor match.

stephen_n

AbusesToilets wrote: »

If Deegan starts and is successful for Leinster in the knock outs, he absolutely should be considered for selection. Form matters. Not to mention there will be an a preseason camp in the run up to the WC. If he's performing well enough, he could go.

This attitude that it's too late to bring in a new player is ridiculous. Same thinking left Heaslip behind when he was tearing it up as a new player coming thru.

He hasn’t even made a match day squad for a European game yet. This conversation started and is being sustained based on playing two or three dirttracker Pro14 games at 7. What’s this form you’re talking about that demands inclusion in a RWC squad? Especially at the cost of established internationals.

Christy42

Bridge93 wrote: »

Anyone who thinks Best calling them the British Lions is a gaffe needs to concern themselves with other things. It's such a non event its barely comprehensible. I've heard Brian O Driscoll call it the British Lions before. A full blown southerner who captained Ireland and the Lions

Maybe bar him from playing in the next Lions series if he can't get the name right!

We are deep into WC prep but we could ban him from playing for Ireland in next years six nations as well :P

Overblown entirely. Hopefully good for a few training ground barbs and nothing more!

AbusesToilets

stephen_n wrote: »

He hasn’t even made a match day squad for a European game yet. This conversation started and is being sustained based on playing two or three dirttracker Pro14 games at 7. What’s this form you’re talking about that demands inclusion in a RWC squad? Especially at the cost of established internationals.

Reference the If in my opening sentence. Deegan has been in excellent form this season, and while you may say that occasions that he has lined out at 7 have been against poor opposition, he has still performed very well. So IF he gets the nod going forward for the knock outs, and IF he performs well, then he should get serious consideration.

Established internationals should earn their places like everyone else. I think most people would agree that Joe erred this 6Ns by trying to play Murray and Sexton into form whilst ignoring other players who were in strong form for their clubs.

stephen_n

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Reference the If in my opening sentence. Deegan has been in excellent form in the last few months and while you may say that occasions that he has lined out at 7 have been against poor opposition, he has still performed very well. So IF he gets the nod going forward for the knock outs, and IF he performs well, then he should get serious consideration.

Established internationals should earn their places like everyone else. I think most people would agree that Joe erred this 6Ns by trying to play Murray and Sexton into form whilst ignoring other players who were in strong form for their clubs.

I’ll just fix your post there as you were stretching a bit far. Up till December he was struggling to get game time and had fallen behind Doris. So to say his form this season has been excellent is way off the mark. He has hit very good form during the 6 nations alright. There’s no If’s in that though.

Established internationals earn their place. They earn it in Europe and in international games. Trying to extrapolate “good form” in far lesser competition is a waste of time. Even if Deegan makes the bench for the semi and that’s a big if, it would still be nowhere near enough to get him a shot with Ireland. Or be enough to displace VDF, POM, Stander, SOB, Conan,Ruddock, Nordie or JOD. Who all have considerably more experience at a higher level.

AbusesToilets

stephen_n wrote: »

I’ll just fix your post there as you were stretching a bit far. Up till December he was struggling to get game time and had fallen behind Doris. So to say his form this season has been excellent is way off the mark. He has hit very good form during the 6 nations alright. There’s no If’s in that though.

Established internationals earn their place. They earn it in Europe and in international games. Trying to extrapolate “good form” in far lesser competition is a waste of time. Even if Deegan makes the bench for the semi and that’s a big if, it would still be nowhere near enough to get him a shot with Ireland. Or be enough to displace VDF, POM, Stander, SOB, Conan,Ruddock, Nordie or JOD. Who all have considerably more experience at a higher level.

That's such a circular argument though. He hasn't had a chance against "higher" competition, so he can't be given a chance against higher competition. You'll never know unless you try. Bring them in camp, give them a level playing field to compete. A player can't ask for more.

On the flip side, you have established players who aren't performing to a high standard retaining their places, to where injury is the only avenue for new players to get a shot. It's a facet of the Irish system that's persisted for multiple coaches, I've never agreed with the arguments that support it.

stephen_n

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That's such a circular argument though. He hasn't had a chance against "higher" competition, so he can't be given a chance against higher competition. You'll never know unless you try. Bring them in camp, give them a level playing field to compete. A player can't ask for more.

On the flip side, you have established players who aren't performing to a high standard retaining their places, to where injury is the only avenue for new players to get a shot. It's a facet of the Irish system that's persisted for multiple coaches, I've never agreed with the arguments that support it.

Think you’ll find the coaches select who they think presents the best chance of winning. Based on a lot more data than you or I have. We look at players and think they aren’t performing. However so and so is performing, against much poorer opposition, he must be a better choice. I’ve never bought that argument.

Max Deegan is a phenomenal talent. But if he was ready now for Ireland, he’d be starting for Leinster in the big games and he’s not, it’s that simple.

The Lost Sheep

AbusesToilets wrote: »

If Deegan starts and is successful for Leinster in the knock outs, he absolutely should be considered for selection. Form matters. Not to mention there will be an a preseason camp in the run up to the WC. If he's performing well enough, he could go.

This attitude that it's too late to bring in a new player is ridiculous. Same thinking left Heaslip behind when he was tearing it up as a new player coming thru.

They are big ifs and i still think he shouldnt be considered even then. He is performing in the secondary league games and not really played much at all in anything else.
I think form of guys like Jack O Donoghue and others should be ahead of him on basis of who theyve been playing against as well.

clsmooth

He's got a lot of ground to catch up. He'd pretty much need MOTM perfomances in the semi, final (if we got there) and knock games in the league to have a chance at this stage. Look how difficult it's been for Beirne to break his way in.

AbusesToilets

clsmooth wrote: »

He's got a lot of ground to catch up. He'd pretty much need MOTM perfomances in the semi, final (if we got there) and knock games in the league to have a chance at this stage. Look how difficult it's been for Beirne to break his way in.

Beirne is in a different boat altogether tho, he's been giving quite a few starts. I don't think he's better than any of the other options at lock. I'd have him 5th or 6th tbh.

AbusesToilets

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They are big ifs and i still think he shouldnt be considered even then. He is performing in the secondary league games and not really played much at all in anything else.
I think form of guys like Jack O Donoghue and others should be ahead of him on basis of who theyve been playing against as well.

I admit I'm campaigning for his inclusion as it stand right now, was more objecting to the notion that he wouldn't be worth considering if he did well after getting selected for Leinster.

Why would you be against considering him in that scenario?

The Lost Sheep

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I admit I'm campaigning for his inclusion as it stand right now, was more objecting to the notion that he wouldn't be worth considering if he did well after getting selected for Leinster.

Why would you be against considering him in that scenario?

I think guys who done far more consistently should be ahead of him. I dont think he has enough big game experience to be ahead of others even if he plays whatever remaining knock out games Leinster have

Squidgy Black

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I admit I'm campaigning for his inclusion as it stand right now, was more objecting to the notion that he wouldn't be worth considering if he did well after getting selected for Leinster.

Why would you be against considering him in that scenario?

If it was this time last year, and he was being selected for Champions Cup/Pro14 knockout games, the conversation around Deegan would be different.

He has no experience aside from Pro14 games where he's not playing against first string sides, hasn't started a knockout rugby game for Leinster, and hasn't had any remote involvement with the Irish squad. Bringing a player who's brand new to the setup in this late when you're only bringing 31 players in total isn't something that's going to happen. If it was a 6 Nations campaign, maybe. But a summer tour/autumn series or 6N would be a more suitable argument.

There's also a good chance he won't be in the Leinster 23 for the semi final so it's not as if he's a guaranteed inclusion at provincial level.

AbusesToilets

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I think guys who done far more consistently should be ahead of him. I dont think he has enough big game experience to be ahead of others even if he plays whatever remaining knock out games Leinster have

Appreciate the answer, I respect that view point. I'd lean more towards playing the hot hand myself, within reason. I think competition breeds performance, players respond to their places being threatened by someone pushing them.

leakyboots

I love how it's only ever on this board and always in relation to the new kid wearing blue that puts in some good performances that we get the premature player X for Ireland talk.

Deegan isn't within an asses roar of the World Cup squad

Dubinusa

Deegan won't make it to Japan! There's probably a handful of spots up for grabs.
Injuries, of course will dictate who goes. A worst case scenario may see PoM, Ruddock , Stander. Or even
Stander, Nordi, Conan.
Leavy's injury is huge. Very disappointing for him and us.
Fortunately, we have Nordi and Ruddock in the wings.
I expect the next 6nations will see a couple of new additions to the set up.
There will be a gradual influx of young lads over a couple of seasons.

Burkie1203

leakyboots wrote: »

I love how it's only ever on this board and always in relation to the new kid wearing blue that puts in some good performances that we get the premature player X for Ireland talk.

Deegan isn't within an asses roar of the World Cup squad

It wasn't so long ago Duncan Casey and Dave Foley were the "form players" in the country and would be mainstays in the Irish team after a handful of performances in the Pro12

I believe it was the end of Toner's career in green if memory serves me correct. 🙄

I never realised Nagle was international standard until he got to Leinster.

Squidgy Black

What's the latest on SOB2.0 out in Connacht? He was in flying form at 7 last season and was very close to a call up.

salmocab

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I never realised Nagle was international standard until he got to Leinster.

Well only Leinster supporters can see how good players are in blue, others do not do similar.

Mr Tickle

Squidgy Black wrote: »

What's the latest on SOB2.0 out in Connacht? He was in flying form at 7 last season and was very close to a call up.

Can't seem to stay fit. Has only played a handful of games all year.

Wegians89

Squidgy Black wrote: »

What's the latest on SOB2.0 out in Connacht? He was in flying form at 7 last season and was very close to a call up.

Out until next season with a should injury, he’s also an out and out 6. Doubt you’ll ever see him with a 7 jersey on haha

Clegg

Mr Tickle wrote: »

Can't seem to stay fit. Has only played a handful of games all year.

The name is a feckin curse.

realhorrorshow

Squidgy Black wrote: »

What's the latest on SOB2.0 out in Connacht? He was in flying form at 7 last season and was very close to a call up.

Back in training but unlikely to feature this season. Has also never played a game at 7 at any level, he's an out and out 6.