Gardai cricitise paedophile hunters

Credit Checker Moose

Why don't you have seat right there?



Gardaí are majorly upset with online paedophile hunters.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda%C3%AD-express-major-concern-over-paedophile-hunting-groups-1.3783959


I wonder what the angle of the Gardaí is? Are they afraid of being exposed as doing f all about nonces online?

sbsquarepants

They should spend a bit more time hunting the filthy bastards themselves.

Victor

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

I wonder what the angle of the Gardaí is?

They don't want their investigations compromised.

One group of people looking for paedophiles would actually be paedophiles.

Another group would be people looking to harm others and use paedophile hunting as an excuse.

Kevin Finnerty

The intentions are great, why cant they work together in this? Lots of reasons which might not look well if written down. Think of the UK rings that were exposed.

jimgoose

While child abuse is an emotive issue, it is not a good idea to have a bunch of unregulated, untrained, unskilled civilians performing ad-hoc police work like this.

oLoonatic

While I don't condone any of the behviour these people that are being "uncovered" for. I don't agree with how they are doing it. It is going to cause legal issues surrounding any court cases that may be brought against them. It could also be used as a defence too that they were essentially "hunted" themselves. They also might flee the area,county or country before the Gardai have a change to apprehend them.

If people were concerned, they need to fight for more garda resources and stop posting videos on the internet.

Boom_Bap

I like what they do, but they need to do it according to the law to ensure there is a conviction.


Secondly, they should really look at the racist/nationalistic/xenophobic nonsense and their own behaviour/language they use when doing what they do.


They should have some sort of trained Garda liaison to work with them.

frash

yourdeadwright

There intent is great ..........but Holy Jesus I can't stand your one in the video's , I don't even know why ,

Reati

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

I wonder what the angle of the Gardaí is? Are they afraid of being exposed as doing f all about nonces online?

They were telling people not to post videos of cars or bicycles breaking the law last week. It was bizarre as it's not illegal to document a factual thing in public. I'm not sure what is going on over there but someone feels the need to point these things out.

circadian

By all means report potential offenders to the authorities but often they overstep the boundaries and make court cases more difficult as a result of their actions.

Pawwed Rig

jimgoose wrote: »

While child abuse is an emotive issue, it is not a good idea to have a bunch of unregulated, untrained, unskilled civilians performing ad-hoc police work like this.

Seems to work though. Isn't that how the rte guy was caught?

Credit Checker Moose

I was watching one of their videos where they physically assaulted an alleged paedophile. It is this sort of stuff that will cause them grief in the future.

Sinus pain

Having had to unfortunately deal with this in the past (online grooming) there was an awful lot of background work done before a successful arrest was made- contacting Snapchat, WhatsApp etc to get all the files and seizing computer equipment etc. I’d say it’s more processes and procedures and seizure of evidence (chain of custody) that the person doesn’t get away with it than anything else

Credit Checker Moose

Sinus pain wrote: »

Having had to unfortunately deal with this in the past (online grooming) there was an awful lot of background work done before a successful arrest was made- contacting Snapchat, WhatsApp etc to get all the files and seizing computer equipment etc. I’d say it’s more processes and procedures and seizure of evidence (chain of custody) that the person doesn’t get away with it than anything else

What training in the preservation of evidence have these people got?

artanevilla

Did some poor bastard get falsely accused and assaulted in Kildare a few years back?

I would question the motive of someone who pretends to be a child on the internet with the intent of catching paedos.

hatrickpatrick

The real problem here isn't the Gardaí, it's the courts. People who commit offenses like this should be jailed in terms counted in decades, not in suspended terms counted in months.

mad muffin

frash wrote: »

HAHA HAHAHAAA HAHAHAAAAAHAHAAAAA HA



They should recruit them and have them working legally to hunt down these god forsaken bastards.

Credit Checker Moose

major bill

There was a group that were very active on Facebook at the start of last year. I watched several videos posted live here and in the UK. While the intentions were good there was something wrong with some of them, I remember one where they cornered a young 19 year old man that was alleged to be texting a 13 year old or something (age could be wrong on who he was texting) and his father came down, bare in mind the people cornering the young man were grown men and women, the father tried to take the 19 year old away and a row broke out where you could hear the annoying NI girl threatening the father. Just didn't sit well with a lot of the viewers.

As said I think they mean well but throwing up the videos live is OTT, they even got the wrong person one of the times that nearly kicked off a massive row. It was this that the Police had issues with, some said cases fell apart cos of their actions.

Irish Guitarist

One problem in exposing people online is the potential for vigilantes. Even if you think paedophiles should be beaten to death there's the risk of stupid people going after someone with a similar name to the exposed paedophile.

The time your man from Lostprophets was sentenced, H from Steps got terrible online abuse. Hundreds of idiots did a Twitter search for 'Ian Watkins' and H, whose real name is also Ian Watkins, was one of the first results. People were too moronic to read any further or to even look at his profile picture and compare it to to the Lostprophets paedo so they just hurled abuse at him.

Although this was only online it just goes to show how stupid a vast proportion of the general public can be. Just look at this story.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda%C3%AD-express-major-concern-over-paedophile-hunting-groups-1.3783959

Apart from that there's the fact these women are putting themselves in danger by confronting potentially violent criminals.

Ruraldweller56

Boom_Bap wrote: »

I like what they do, but they need to do it according to the law to ensure there is a conviction.


Secondly, they should really look at the racist/nationalistic/xenophobic nonsense and their own behaviour/language they use when doing what they do.


They should have some sort of trained Garda liaison to work with them.

Being proud of your nationality isn't a character flaw.

tigger123

This is what happens when Facebook Groups get out of hand.

El_Bee

The problem I have with these groups is when instead of just taking their evidence to the police they make these videos/streams of themselves, comes across more like they're trying to build social capital online and become e-famous rather than actually pursue justice.

Gatling

They shouldn't be allowed to operate or allowed collect any kind of evidence that could be used in any potential court case .
They could potentially cause more problems than actually doing good

yourdeadwright

El_Bee wrote: »

The problem I have with these groups is when instead of just taking their evidence to the police they make these videos/streams of themselves, comes across more like they're trying to build social capital online and become e-famous rather than actually pursue justice.

id have to agree , I know there dealing with scum but they way your one comes across on the video's seems like she loves the power trip but then again I suppose the people they are dealing with are the lowest of the low,

CrankyHaus

I assumed the worst about these groups. However this article changed my mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/01/experience-i-am-a-paedophile-hunter

Done properly this form of active citizenship is admirable and assists police. However the state is often jealous of volunteers encroaching on its turf, perhaps Gardai most of all: just look at how they have fought tough and nail against Garda reservists.

The cynic in me wonders if they're a little worried about well connected people being outed as paedophiles by a process they have no control over: maybe RTE producers, Gardai, politicians, judges. We have a long history of covering such things up, and I'm not at all convinced that we've completely moved on from that.

sbsquarepants

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

What training in the preservation of evidence have these people got?

You're likely talking about a record of an online conversation or exchange of photographs or something along those lines.
They aren't sweeping crime scenes and looking to preserve / not cross contaminate DNA!

Anything that smokes these shít bags out of their hiding places is fine by me.

Church on Tuesday

jimgoose wrote: »

While child abuse is an emotive issue, it is not a good idea to have a bunch of unregulated, untrained, unskilled civilians performing ad-hoc police work like this.

Have to say I disagree.

Morale in An Gardaí Síochána is at an all time low. We don't have near enough Gardaí to properly police our cities and large town, never mind investigating cases of Pedophilia.

In England regulated security firms are booming due to the lack of visible plod out on the beat over there, in time, the same industry will catch on here and obviously pedophile hunter groups are active and do a lot of good work over there too.

I hope it catches on here too. Any help is good help at the end of the day and the more information gathered with the help of the aware general public can only help a police force that is struggling pretty badly right now.

Credit Checker Moose

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You're likely talking about a record of an online conversation or exchange of photographs or something along those lines.
They aren't sweeping crime scenes and looking to preserve / not cross contaminate DNA!

Anything that smokes these shít bags out of their hiding places is fine by me.

They would need a lot more evidence than that.

Credit Checker Moose

Unregulated self appointed vigilante gangs are not the solution to the problem.

tigger123

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Have to say I disagree.

Morale in An Gardaí Síochána is at an all time low. We don't have near enough Gardaí to properly police our cities and large town, never mind investigating cases of Pedophilia.

In England regulated security firms are booming due to the lack of visible plod out on the beat over there, in time, the same industry will catch on here and obviously pedophile hunter groups are active and do a lot of good work over there too.

I hope it catches on here too. Any help is good help at the end of the day and the more information gathered with the help of the aware general public can only help a police force that is struggling pretty badly right now.

And what if they get it wrong? There's a reason we have trained police to do this work.

alchemist33

There may well be level-headed, intelligent people in these groups but the ones I've seen online are little short of mobs. Given how easy it is for people to be falsely accused and have the accusations stick, we don't need more of these.

Yer Da sells Avon

El_Bee wrote: »

The problem I have with these groups is when instead of just taking their evidence to the police they make these videos/streams of themselves, comes across more like they're trying to build social capital online and become e-famous rather than actually pursue justice.

I've only ever watched one of those videos - the RTE producer who got caught in Leeds. At one point, before the police arrived, nothing was happening and it was like they were all taking it in turns to call him a "diiiiirty paedo bastid" (or words to that effect), lest anyone should think that they approve of his behaviour. Whatever about the rights and wrongs of what they were doing, it was pretty cringeworthy.

Ipso

Anything that strikes fear into the hearts of paediatricians can only be a good thing.

TheValeyard

sbsquarepants wrote: »

They should spend a bit more time hunting the filthy bastards themselves.

Five large raids in the past year alone. Think the gardai have caught up with the tech and the means of how to catch them.

Samuel T. Cogley

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Five large raids in the past year alone. Think the gardai have caught up with the tech and the means of how to catch them.

I think it's more information is being fed to them by other jurisdictions. Also I believe, but I'm open to correction, that the raids were for child abuse pictures and videos rather than grooming.

On the groups themselves there seems to be a certain 'type' involved in this that usually could do with finding themselves a job. Other than that I'm torn on it, the internet is a community and we could do with a lot more involvement in keeping various communities safe.

Edit: Specifically on evidence it's fairly hard to feck up the chain of custody as they usually take it all from the offenders side as shown with the various successful prosecutions in the UK.

paleoperson

major bill wrote: »

As said I think they mean well but throwing up the videos live is OTT, they even got the wrong person one of the times that nearly kicked off a massive row. It was this that the Police had issues with, some said cases fell apart cos of their actions.

I think it's more about the thrill of the hunt and the virtue signalling. To show your moral superiority while at the same time hunting down someone and a feeling of "importance" to society.

But like why would you be interested in it in the first place is what I want to know. You don't have people who go out setting traps for people to steal cars and then encircling the people who try it with the end result claiming to clean the streets of bad guys. It's all a bit odd, I wouldn't think well of any of the people involved.

"but my daughter..."

uh, the best thing you can do, for the minority who even have a daughter, is to know where she is and be a responsible and upstanding father. Not carrying out what is essentially a witchhunt.

Sinus pain

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

Sinus pain wrote: »

Having had to unfortunately deal with this in the past (online grooming) there was an awful lot of background work done before a successful arrest was made- contacting Snapchat, WhatsApp etc to get all the files and seizing computer equipment etc. I’d say it’s more processes and procedures and seizure of evidence (chain of custody) that the person doesn’t get away with it than anything else

What training in the preservation of evidence have these people got?

Who the guards?

Credit Checker Moose

No, the Chris Hansen wannabes.

Sin City

Its good in theroy
Where it falls down is when the video live stream and out the individual before he has been found guilty.


If they ever got it wrong. They could ruin and innocent persons life
mud sticks

Other than that anything that makes a groomer think twice has to be a good thing

Sinus pain

Credit Checker Moose wrote: »

No, the Chris Hansen wannabes.

None I would guess - that’s why the guards don’t support their work. Which is what I was getting at in my op

Church on Tuesday

tigger123 wrote: »

And what if they get it wrong? There's a reason we have trained police to do this work.

The Gardaí get it wrong sure.

Church on Tuesday

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

I've only ever watched one of those videos - the RTE producer who got caught in Leeds. At one point, before the police arrived, nothing was happening and it was like they were all taking it in turns to call him a "diiiiirty paedo bastid" (or words to that effect), lest anyone should think that they approve of his behaviour. Whatever about the rights and wrongs of what they were doing, it was pretty cringeworthy.

Well they're not exactly wrong are they.

That lad is out and about to re-offend again BTW.

baldshin

There are 2 main issues with these groups.

The first is that any evidence they gather is essentially useless in court once they post up a video or live stream of them confronting the subject, as there is no way in hell that person will ever get a fair and unbiased trial, as they have already had their image and accusations against them plastered online.

The second, and more important from a legal perspective, is that most, if not all of the Irish stings I've seen involve members of the group pretending to be kids and actively engaging with the alleged paedophile. In these instances, there is no injured party (ie. child), that the Gardai can prosecute on behalf of. The legislation is different in the UK, where it is an offence to groom a person who you believe to be a child. In Ireland, it must be an actual child. The "hunters" have gotten this very wrong, and have effectively entrapped the person.

Squatter

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Have to say I disagree.

Morale in An Gardaí Síochána is at an all time low. We don't have near enough Gardaí to properly police our cities and large town, never mind investigating cases of Pedophilia.

In England regulated security firms are booming due to the lack of visible plod out on the beat over there, in time, the same industry will catch on here and obviously pedophile hunter groups are active and do a lot of good work over there too.

I hope it catches on here too. Any help is good help at the end of the day and the more information gathered with the help of the aware general public can only help a police force that is struggling pretty badly right now.

Morale in AGS has been "at an all time low" ever since I emerged from primary school back in the early 1960's!

It's one of those witless clichés that the Garda Representative Association head honchos regurgitate up every few years at their Annual Conferences to give the security journos a nice headline for their articles next day.

Aside: Didn't some intrepid newspaper reveal that the INMO's Liam Doran had used those very words on no less than 20 occasions during his 25 years in charge of the nurses' union?

Vela

Saw one of these in action recently, whole bunch of shouting and they kept saying the guards were on the way but they never showed.

vicwatson

I thought the "man"power at the section that checks these computers etc was overwhelmed and couldn't cope as they simply didn't have enough staff to do the work required, has this changed? have AGS increased staffing levels to what is required to nail these nonces?

Yer Da sells Avon

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Well they're not exactly wrong are they.

That lad is out and about to re-offend again BTW.

That's not really the point. They were clearly playing it up for the cameras, all trying to outdo each other with the tabloidy rhetoric. It seemed as though it was as much about themselves as it was about protecting children.

eagle eye

Yer Da sells Avon wrote:

That's not really the point. They were clearly playing it up for the cameras, all trying to outdo each other with the tabloidy rhetoric. It seemed as though it was as much about themselves as it was about protecting children.

As long as they are helping to protect children it's a good thing imo.

Discodog

If these hunters are ok then why stop there ? Lets have vigilantes instead of a police force. I find these "hunters" to be almost as bad as the people they hunt. I have seen videos where they clearly break the law.