ESB eCars

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635027#Comment_121635027

Sorry, I was asking the "question" as a thought statement rather than actually expecting specific answers. I think at 60-80c per kWh at DC charging there is a good profit margin on an operational basis. IE - exclude capital costs and just look operationally what is the cost of the electricity and how much are we selling it for. I would hazard a guess that supply costs from the grid cost more than in 2022, significantly so. Even my own domestic electricity has doubled from 7c to 13c in that time.

But as Ted says they have not only installed the chargers that were there in 2022, theyve actually installed a lot more since. Now I'm no champion of ecars and they are a distant 4-5th on my list of networks of choice, but I dont think their pricing is unfair. You have to recoup capital costs otherwise you're running at a perpetual loss.

There was a lot of hullabaloo when the existing network was handed to ecars by the then CER, however that was a few paltry SPOF 50kW units. They have invested tens of millions since, and I doubt that even 10% of that initial cost has been paid off. EV charging is not as profitable as us EV drivers would think.. even at 80c/kwh. Would you invest 50 million in an industry that *may* pay you back to zero after 10-12 years, and is in an early adopter state of flux? There are many better ROI options out there.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635038#Comment_121635038

How much of that was public money in the form of govt grants and how much of that was their own money though? Also more charge points means more money

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635170#Comment_121635170

Fair points indeed. I still say if wholesale prices are dropping we should be seeing some reduction in our prices though

innrain

Are these investments not part of the 10M own + 10M gov contribution, project which should have ran 2019-2023? I heard not conclusion of that project. have the milestones been achieved? I tried to look back to our posts from the era but it seems they got lost.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635387#Comment_121635387

And what about the other €70m?

deravarra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635504#Comment_121635504

It all smacks of what the banks did to their customers after the government (via our taxes) bailed them out.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121637107#Comment_121637107

That’s a bit of a leap, it’s nothing like that.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635504#Comment_121635504

But there is not other 70M is there?

Since its establishment in 2010, ESB has invested more than €70m in establishing and operating the public charging network. Included in this is an investment of €20m to expand and enhance the charging network across Ireland and is part-funded by the Government’s Climate Action Fund.

As there are no public accounts of the company we could only speculate but the " ...and operating..." and "Included in this...." suggests that the fixed capital investment is much lower than 70M spanning 2010-2022. At least the 70M include the 20M I was referring to. In fairness is not really their fault. GOV was never committed. 2M a year is an absolute joke of investment at national level.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121637812#Comment_121637812

€90M, I guess you are reading an older document

https://esb.ie/media-centre-news/blog/article/ecars-news/2023/12/18/powering-ireland-and-great-britain-s-ev-network

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635387#Comment_121635387

I can't remember an exact date of completion but they promised 50 fast charging "hubs" in the country and they are currently at 28, a hub to them is 3 cars though don't forget.

There was an article in the Irish Times back in August'23 where the head of the ESB claimed "EV charging prices to fall in near future"

Looks like another milestone missed there

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638356#Comment_121638356

Where are you getting your numbers from? They currently have 3 8 car sites of the 6 they indicated. Blanchardstown and Carrickmines are being developed.

They then have 38 sites that have dual DC chargers and 99 mono DC charger sites.

I see that as them being short 12 dual charger sites, and 1 quad charger compared to the plan mentioned in post 1 of this thread, which I believe was to run from 2019 to 2023.

deravarra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121637447#Comment_121637447

government are providing them with a fair wad of cash to encourage them to provide charging capacity ... and then they lob on a hefty fee for doing so - well above the cost of providing the power?

Not too far a leap.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638527#Comment_121638527

A small wad in the grand scheme of things.

and imagine that’s for Capex and not Opex

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638452#Comment_121638452

https://www.tippmidwestradio.com/2023/08/08/esb-new-high-power-ev-chargers-in-obama-plaza/

Admittedly it is a local radio station news story from August after the opening of Barak Obama Plaza and might not be the most recent. The figure I've mentioned is also slightly misquoted by me

The ESB aims to deliver 50 High-Power hubs across the country as part of its national EV network strategy with 28 yet to be delivered.

If this was all promised by 2023 then even by your figures the target has been missed

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638762#Comment_121638762

I took numbers from the ESB app which gives the current live sites (+ the two Dublin) hubs. Given we've had some pretty major world events since 2019. I'm not all that surprised that they've only delivered around 80% of the project.

If they've gone from 28 to be delivered (your article from Aug'23) down to just 13 missing sites by Jan'24 it just show's how much infra they are rolling out.

zg3409

Some pros for esb

They have been kicked out of some motorway sites and prevented from expanding there while they were waiting to be kicked out. (At least two)

There was massive delays in deliveries of new chargers from manufacturers due to covid supply chain and massive demand in orders from other countries.

There was massive electricity prices holes and they were slow enough to pas these on. They nay have hedged on the market at the wrong time and have licked in higher pricing into a period where prices have dropped.

They have said themselves AC charging is not profitable and they will not roll out new AC sites.

Some anti ecars

They made loads of promises even recently of price cuts, you would think they would know.

They made promises in 2022 of replacing broken chargers in NI but only seemed to deliver in late 2023 or early 2024. Many units in NI were broken for 1+ years and we're not fixable as they were an obsolete design yet their own deadlines were missed and customers were left arriving at known broken sites. Some sites in ROI were also broken for years.

Bad placement of chargers in terms of number of spaces and cable length, this was told to them over and over but they still repeat old mistakes.

In terms of profitability it's unlikely ecars pays massive rent. They are the default charging network for many drivers with many drivers not knowing how to find non ecars chargers. They often have queued of people trying to give them money at peak times. If you assume a charger lasts 10 years and do some maths the busier sites should be relatively profitable and when you consider there is no on site staff costs and often 24/7/365 access and users it's not a bad business. If you look at competitors like easygo they only get a fraction of the traffic and easygo have said they don't want motorway sites nor above 75kW chargers as they don't make financial sense.

There was lots of talk of ecars being sold at different times. That may also skew how they view themselves and how they want to be lean and "efficient".

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639391#Comment_121639391

Does eCars own the NI network or where they operating on behalf of the NI government, my understanding was it was in a very similar situation to the our network pre the 2018 handover.

innrain

The Park Carrickmines

Nearly ready. This is what I woul call a hub. Nice job

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639511#Comment_121639511

I am not sure. They were free until very recently and they rebranded to same name as ROI. One reason for NI issues I believe may have been local councils needed to tender out or bid for charger replacements rather than just let ecars swap out existing units. Again I do t know details but legal and political can have a major impact on these projects.

dsandson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639391#Comment_121639391

Its interesting regarding EasyGo, that their closest comparison in NI is Weev, who started aiming for AC and a little DC, but have pivoted quickly to as much DC as they can get. Even more now that they received additional investment from Octopus, as they're looking at hubs with canopies etc. They clearly see DC, and high power DC / Ultra-rapid DC as they way forward. It seems they get better usage therefore a better return, despite the higher investment required.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639511#Comment_121639511

ESB eCars now own the network. It was officially transferred about a year ago, and was apparently one of the things that held them up.

dsandson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639776#Comment_121639776

Hopefully its a trick of the camera, but looks like the second charger only has space of one bay. If thats the case they could have spun the charger around so the cables were facing the front.

innrain

It is the angle. I couldn't take the picture perpendicular as there was a delivery van and few other cars parked taking the view.

Genghis

Lots of good detail about CapEx Vs OpEx.

Price rises since 2022 were attributed, however, to increases in the wholesale cost of electricity, so wholly operational.

As wholesale costs have now dropped, and these reductions are filtering through to other markets, then it's reasonable to expect pricing esb e-cars to fall, no? That's all we are asking.

Here's the wording they gave for a 2022 price rise:

"Unfortunately, sustained higher wholesale energy costs throughout Europe means that we continue to experience a very substantial increase in the cost of wholesale electricity, which we must reluctantly pass onto our customers."

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121641867#Comment_121641867

ECars aren’t paying wholesale prices , they are in fixed price contracts .

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121641891#Comment_121641891

I know this. Fixed Price Contracts are for set times and renegotiated based on wholesale rates and how they are expected to change.

Their CEO indicated last August eCars were contracted at high prices until last autumn. He said reductions would follow once these contracts were renegotiated.

If you go back a page or two, I posted that article and asked why nothing has changed since then.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121641947#Comment_121641947

ECars does not have a CEO. Has there been a staff change ?

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121641955#Comment_121641955

Happy to clarify, and you are correct. I am referring to John Byrne, head of ecars.

Who makes pricing decisions in ecars, or is it decided outside of ecars management.

I'm asking that as a genuine question. Their email to me about their 2022 price increases was not signed or signed off by any person.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121641867#Comment_121641867

That was an interesting one in December of 2022 raising prices based on wholesale as it was widely reported in the media at the time that wholesale prices were falling

Also interesting to note that ecars increased their prices twice (or was it 3 times?) in 2022. An assumption could be made that they renegotiate the price they pay more than once a year and yet it's been 13 months since the last price change with no sign of a drop coming

Perhaps ecars could explain that one to us?

zg3409

https://www.plugshare.com/location/590630

i didn't put this in.the new charger thread as it looks very not operational yet.

I expect esb pricing is as high as they can get away with. High pricing makes the chargers look much more viable and were copied by other competitors who also have not dropped pricing.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121647208#Comment_121647208

So you agree it's most likely profiteering?

cannco253

First time using the esb hub at the plaza Kinnegad yesterday. No waiting, no awkward parking and in/out before we knew it.

Hard to look across at the covered forecourt when the rain came lashing down though...