ESB eCars

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626415#Comment_121626415

Yeah sure...

joe1303l

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626415#Comment_121626415

ESB aren’t usually in a rush, this won’t be any different. There isn’t enough competitor chargers for the public to go elsewhere either.

Genghis

Agree on the point about competition. No one else will announce a drop until ESB do. They are taking the Mickey at this stage.

Red Silurian

Ecars should really be publicly owned and operated for the benefit of the public to try and aid the adoption of EVs instead of making a tidy profit

I know the first part of what I say is true already

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626684#Comment_121626684

who says they are making a profit ?

markpb

...

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626464#Comment_121626464

I think it's worse than that. They're sufficiently big that lots of EV drivers will download the eCars app and never look at other networks. They're also the only network (outside of Tesla) that operate 100kW+ inter-urban charging points.

They're currently charging almost twice the unit rate of Tesla (35/39c vs 68c) so either they're hopelessly inefficient, locked into poor hedging contracts or they just don't care about being competitive.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626782#Comment_121626782

68c/kWh, double the price of a home rate, and that hasn't changed despite the reduction in wholesale prices while they built the network with govt subsidies... If they aren't making a profit on that there's a bigger issue at play

But also the groups profit margin is up by €157m according to their latest investor update (June 2023)

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627471#Comment_121627471

The group profit margin (which will end up in state coffers anyway) includes all group companies, from ESBI to networks to distribution etc. It's very unlikely ecars as a standalone is actually profitable. Especially if you include connection costs, and the recent capex on multiple HPCs. With the exception of Tesla, the ecars prices are competitive with other DC sites in Ireland (NI and ROI). I'm actually ok with the ecars pricing.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627607#Comment_121627607

Same price as the Applegreen and Circle K chargers, 5c lower than ionity

I find it hard to believe that applegreen, Circle K and Ionity are operating their chargers at a loss or a sub-5c/kWh profit as well

For overall EV adoption ecars pricing and average queueing times are generally not attractive to new buyers, which is what they were designed to be

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627681#Comment_121627681

They may be operationally profitable but not profitable as a whole yet. Similar to ecars imo.

I havent had to queue for some time now. In fact, the last time I queued was at Tesla Sandyford. Queuing isnt a problem anymore, not like it was in 2017 anyway. The pricing is perfectly fine, you don't need to charge every day at a fast charger. I don't see what you want, should ecars run at a loss to give you cheaper charging?

markpb

Whatever about the price of DC charging, I think eCars AC charging should be a lot cheaper. It's hard to claim that the hardware cost or connection cost is driving those prices up.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627819#Comment_121627819

I suppose what I'd like to see is the equivalent price of filling up at ecars to be lower than that of petrol or diesel. Personally speaking I don't need to charge at a fast charger as I have home and work charging but if I didn't have at least one of those, and many people don't, I'd be mad to go electric

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627896#Comment_121627896

Is there a competitor that is significantly cheaper? (Genuine question, I rarely use public charging)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628003#Comment_121628003

Yes but that reality may not be borne out in actuality. Heat pumps arent always cheaper than oil, for instance. Stuff isnt cheaper just because its greener.

If you plug in at ecars, ionity, applegreen,circle k etc the cost is pretty similar. That shows me that there isnt much more to come down without external events. The point about AC is a good one above, if we had a good AC network it could be priced better IMO as the majority of charging for folks without home charging would be AC and not DC, and AC is cheaper to implement. DC charging will always be expensive. If you have an inefficient EV and charge it only on Ionity it's possible to pay well over what you would in a petrol or diesel!

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627896#Comment_121627896

I would 100% agree with this. AC charging is too expensive vs DC, the differential is low enough in fact that AC can be more expensive if you take account of local parking charges while you slow-charge.

AC is under utilised due to this pricing model .... and this is across the board, not just eCars.

Near to me there is a lovely bank of 10 easy-go AC chargers near a train station. They are installed 3-4 months and in that time I've yet to see even one of them in use, they are in fact wasting car spaces that ICEs could use.

Back to e-cars, I see unused AC charging stations all the time. Maybe people don't need them or maybe they never use them as for the low price difference they might as well use a DC charger.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628025#Comment_121628025

Tesla would be considered significantly cheaper but only 8 sites in the country and only 2 sites open to all EVs might not consider them a competitor

If we want to promote the buying of EVs and other green tech it needs to be cheaper to use than the equivalent, or at least the same price. Otherwise there's no buy in from the public.

Your example of heat pumps is a good one but in most cases they are cheaper than kerosene to run

Also excellent points about AC charging to be fair, if you have a 7kW charger near you that you can use overnight and offers similar prices to home rates you don't need a home charger

Flinty997

It's there a penalty (overstay) for charging overnight on public AC

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628084#Comment_121628084

I think it's 8 or 10 hours on eCars AC.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628071#Comment_121628071

The heat pump issue is only that they work in high ber, well insulated houses. Where -of course - less oil would be needed too. So its not the heat pump that saves money as much as the new windows, insulated attic, pumped walls etc.

This is the problem with fossil fuels. They give so much energy in so little volume at such a cheap cost. You need something like 7-8kWh to replace one litre of kerosene. Because of the higher efficiency of the heat pump that might be halved down to 3.5kwh. If you're paying day rate for that electricity that could still be €1.25 and the kerosene would be cheaper! Even before accounting for the 6-12k to install a new heat pump and all the upgrades.

EVs are similar. They drive further on the same amount of given kwh/kwh equivalent, but they are only cheaper because duties on road going fossil fuels make the electricity cost less than the cost of petrol. There's a difference between charging for "free" in the summer and 13c/kWh in the winter like I do, and paying 30c/kWh on a standard tariff or a 56c/kWh on ecars. We're already artificially inflating the cost of fossil fuels by 1.5X or more, due to taxes that arent on electricity.

So it's not so much that Evs are cheaper because they are green, or even specifically incentivised beyond a small purchase grant, merely because the economics usually work out that they are cheaper to run. But this is not always true and it is indeed possible to pay more than fossil fuels in some cases. This is why I always caution people that EVs may not work for everyone and while they are brilliant (I've been driving EV since 2016 and have 3 currently) they are not the panacea that folk often make them out to be and we have a lot to do to ensure folks without access to home charging have access to EVs.

Netherlands have done this very well, with a public AC network on every street nearly, where residents can easily request their local council to install a (pay to use) AC charger that is accessible for everyone to use. And pay a cost equivalent to the usual day rate. We could do something here. In fact, we do! Just the local councils weren't interested as none of them took it up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628084#Comment_121628084

Yup, 8 euro after 10 hours.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627681#Comment_121627681

Circle k don’t have additional rent to pay.

ECars have to pay rent on all their sites and have way more overheads.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628170#Comment_121628170

Well said.

There's also the issue of local air quality in urban areas, servicing (if there's no major issues), and also the unsuitability of pure ICE cars for short , stop/start journeys. There's also more kit in EVs in general. Even older cheaper used ones. Though premium ICE cars might have similar.

Fingleberries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626592#Comment_121626592

Tesla recently reduced their prices down to 39c (peak) / 35c (off peak) per kWh for Tesla cars (52c/47c for non-Tesla at open sites, without a sub) - but I don't see any of the others dropping down to that any time soon. Even Ionity with a sub (like Elli) is more than that these days.

I suppose as long as companies can get away with charging the higher prices, they will.

joe1303l

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628025#Comment_121628025

Savings to be made by using Freshmile for eCars DC charge points. Only worthwhile if you have an EV capable of fast charging speeds. Start with a low SOC% and disconnect at 80% or before.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628170#Comment_121628170

Fair points, the big thing when it comes to cost I think is that running a heat pump is much less likely to fluctuate and can always be run free from solar or on night rate via a battery. At one point last year kero prices were going up and down faster than a p*********s nickers

It is fascinating that it costs less to dig up oil, refine it and ship it here from the middle east, transport it to wholesalers/retailers than it costs to take the electricity via cables from our wind farms and jab them straight into the car.

Also worth remembering that before Russia invaded Ukraine it was 26c/kWh AC and 33c/kWh DC to charge at ecars locations

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628206#Comment_121628206

Fair point also. But I would counter that by saying Tesla also have to pay rent but can sell their electrons for much less

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627681#Comment_121627681

They may be making a profit on the rate they sell electricity, but capital expenditure on the charger units, ground works, grid connection works, and land purchase where applicable (if not leasing), would probably mean it'll be several years before any of them start to turn a profit.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631658#Comment_121631658

Unlikely at the profit margin, remember the faster the charge the quicker the profit builds

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631818#Comment_121631818

Bigger over heads,

more expensive connection, more expensive transformer, more

Expensive cables, more expensive charger

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631818#Comment_121631818

If you charge at a 350kW unit for 30 minutes and take on say 80kWh in that time. You've paid let's say €55 for the privelege.

After paying for wholesale electricity including a portion of the max demand charges (which for a multiple of 350kW is not going to be cheap) how much exactly do you think is left to repay each of the €100k+ DC units capital cost? Not to mention customer support, backend, billing, app etc?

How many people need to charge and how many kWh need to be dispensed before the DC charger hardware pays for itself, and that is excluding costs of installation, wiring, probably building a local sub station and paying esbn to upgrade the connection? Also (and this is something the likes of circle k and applegreen wouldnt need to pay incrementally) they would have to rent or buy land to put the chargers on

Theres a reason fast charging is expensive. And it's not an ESB group quango, despite what some folks like to think. And you're not the only one @Red Silurian , far from it. Other than Tesla who have their own agenda, to sell cars and they have stated their supercharger network for tesla owners they only aim to break even, no one is sub 50c per kWh...

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633630#Comment_121633630

I'm not familiar with the exact figures you request but I know in January/February 2022 it was €0.37 for high power charging on ecars, maybe the other charges that you reference are higher now than they were then but wholesale has been continually coming down, yet the unit price has not come down

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635027#Comment_121635027

And look at the investment ECars have made since, lots of new DC chargers being commissioned. Any “profits” is being reinvested, don’t think they’ve made 90 million?