Marian Finucane Thread

jeremyj1968

"From a very rudimentary knowledge of it..... "

No week's reading of the newspapers this week then Marion?

Oops69

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

He said there will be no net cost. He clearly, explicitly said they would be paid from the proceeds of the sale of land, or paid in land.

You're deliberately misleading what he said now. There are good arguments against Crosby's proposal without having to make things up.

The best answer to his proposal is that we have plenty of land already that isnt prone to flooding which is why the Dutch needed to build their polders and dykes , drive 10 miles out of Dublin and there is more or less nothing for 2o0 miles in any direction apart from some small settlements -- we are an empty country.

Oops69

Oops69 wrote: »

The best answer to his proposal is that we have plenty of land already that isnt prone to flooding which is why the Dutch needed to build their polders and dykes , drive 10 miles out of Dublin and there is more or less nothing for 2o0 miles in any direction apart from some small settlements -- we are an empty country.

The two big differences here are (i) that those lands, even if compulsorily purchased, are privately owned; it would cost hundreds of millions, if not billions, to buy those lands. That's before you even dig a hole in the ground. (ii) Developments on the boundaries of the city create major traffic problems, if built on a similar scale, as well as other problems associated with urban sprawl.

Density close to the city centre, and the fact that the lands are already state-owned, are major factors.

Even if you stretch the cost of reclaiming these lands beyond all credibility, it is still a small fraction of the value of these lands.

humberklog

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I think your missing the point. It isn't "some Dutch fella", it's a group who have undertaken this exact work in Dubai, which people will be familiar with from media or if they've been to Dubai.

It's not a quote from some local, even Dutch, handyman.

I don't know if Crosby is leaving out some crucial information. I think it's worth hearing from the Minister as to why this isn't a good idea.

I don't think he said the same company doing the work in Dubai is the same that gave him a quote on the quantity of works.
I've listened back 4 times now and can't find any other description of the company other than it's Dutch.

A texter referred to their experience of what they saw in Dubai but no mention from Harry that it was the same company.

mgn

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The two big differences here are (i) that those lands, even if compulsorily purchased, are privately owned; it would cost hundreds of millions, if not billions, to buy those lands. That's before you even dig a hole in the ground. (ii) Developments on the boundaries of the city create major traffic problems, if built on a similar scale, as well as other problems associated with urban sprawl.

Density close to the city centre, and the fact that the lands are already state-owned, are major factors.

Even if you stretch the cost of reclaiming these lands beyond all credibility, it is still a small fraction of the value of these lands.

And how do you think you would get planning permission,The elite of Clontarf blocked a flood defence wall a while back so you could imagine the protest for something like this.Its all pie in the sky stuff so that the likes of Crosbie keeps his name in the papers.

Brendan Bendar

mgn wrote: »

And how do you think you would get planning permission,The elite of Clontarf blocked a flood defence wall a while back so you could imagine the protest for something like this.Its all pie in the sky stuff so that the likes of Crosbie keeps his name in the papers.

Correct mg, that’s it, load of bollox.

humberklog

There's quite a few things missing ftom Harry's big idea not least the knicker twisting curtain twitchers on Vernon Avenue.

The big one i can't figure out is this costing of 200million. How did they come up with that figure- there was no ground analsys done (I'd have seen the rigs) . Before these brainy clog hoppers start hosing infill into this large site there'd be huge dredging required and that spoil will more than likely need to be sent for cleaning treatment in Germany before it can be reused or spread back into public environment.

On my back of a beer mat economics i don't think 200million would even get you the prep works done to recieve the infill.

Another fairly obvious question Marian should have asked Harry is what happens to Dollymount and the coastal area up as far and possibly beyond the causeway. I dunno and i don't think Harry does either.

humberklog

humberklog wrote: »

I don't think he said the same company doing the work in Dubai is the same that gave him a quote on the quantity of works.
I've listened back 4 times now and can't find any other description of the company other than it's Dutch.

A texter referred to their experience of what they saw in Dubai but no mention from Harry that it was the same company.

Listen closer. 11 minutes 20 seconds into the programme, he mentions that these guys have done the very same work in Dubai.

humberklog wrote: »

On my back of a beer mat economics i don't think 200million would even get you the prep works done to recieve the infill.

Can we see the back of your beermat, or just generally how you arrived at that calculation regarding preparatory works?

humberklog

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Listen closer. 11 minutes 20 seconds into the programme, he mentions that these guys have done the very same work in Dubai.




Can we see the back of your beermat, or just generally how you arrived at that calculation regarding preparatory works?

No, it's top secret. I'll show them mine if they show me there's.

humberklog

humberklog wrote: »

No, it's top secret. I'll show them mine if they show me there's.

Thought so.

humberklog

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Thought so.

Ah I'll expand a bit. I was the senior engineer on the piling of Long Boat quay, where i got to know Harry. It was a 3.5 acre site that the excavation and disposal of spoil was 1.4 million. It was dug to a depth of 8 metres using excavators and straight to ship (handy on the docks).

Doing that over the 250 acres would probably come in under 90million but then the retaining wall for river (appx 1.6km) and the 850M weir damn i charged another 90million because it rhymes with the estimate on the dredging.

I'd like to see their ledger.

humberklog

My point ATNM is that Harry is putting his price approxamation of delivary of a tenurable structural development way, way, way too low.

And Marion could have easily researched her brief, kept HC from blowing bubbles re his Lime disease, homeless, wah, wah, wah and woo and dived down harder on his maths and the future implications of such a development.

And this rolled into her show this morning. And there waa a hardening of ignorance.

humberklog

humberklog wrote: »

My point ATNM is that Harry is putting his price approxamation of delivary of a tenurable structural development way, way, way too low.

And Marion could have easily researched her brief, kept HC from blowing bubbles re his Lime disease, homeless, wah, wah, wah and woo and dived down harder on his maths and the future implications of such a development.

And this rolled into her show this morning. And there waa a hardening of ignorance.

A texter brought up Lyme disease, which I also thought was an unusual question. Can only assume they suffer from it themselves. It's a dose, and the man was blind with it for four months. This is hardly the stick to beat him with, humberklog, pick your battles.

I take everything you say on face value - you seem to know your stuff, and I don't have any expertise in that area. OK. In fact, let's go further. Let's say Crosbie is underestimating the cost by a factor of 5 -- in fact, a factor of 15. Let's say the cost is 3 billion euro.

Then what? The site is still worth upwards of 6 billion. The government could sell the land for half-price and still break even (these are very rough maths, but we're dealing in guesswork and supposition, here)

So I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you planning on getting to a point where the project costs several billion euro to clear for building? And is that rational? Because otherwise, it's a bit moot.

humberklog

Well I'm more trying to keep it tacking towards MF and her show. She took on HC completely unbriefed. She says she's payed big bananas because of her research skills when off air. But this nonsense shows she's not.

2 questuons to HC is: where's the spoil going? And where is the infill coming from?
Simple.
You're taking simething out of the ground, how much?
You're putting something in, how much?

Don't get me wrong i like Harry and appreciate what he's done for Dublin. But he got himself on MF's show to come up with airyfairy notions without any forensic questioning.

Whatever Harry pulls out of his bellybutton is grand with me but when he gets air time on one of Ireland's highest paid journalist's show without any meaninful questions from that journalists? That's not on.

humberklog

humberklog wrote: »

Well I'm more trying to keep it tacking towards MF and her show. She took on HC completely unbriefed. She says she's payed big bananas because of her research skills when off air. But this nonsense shows she's not.

2 questuons to HC is: where's the spoil going? And where is the infill coming from?
Simple.
You're taking simething out of the ground, how much?
You're putting something in, how much?

Don't get me wrong i like Harry and appreciate what he's done for Dublin. But he got himself on MF's show to come up with airyfairy notions without any forensic questioning.

Whatever Harry pulls out of his bellybutton is grand with me but when he gets air time on one of Ireland's highest paid journalist's show without any meaninful questions from that journalists? That's not on.

Well in many ways I agree with what you're saying, I mean you're almost preaching to the choir, as you know from the general tone of this thread.

You're absolutely correct, and more than entitled, to emphasise Finucane's shortcomings as a broadcaster in her examination of Crosbie's idea. It raised more questions than answers.

In other ways, however, the topic is bigger than either Crosbie or Finucane. We don't have enough space to sustainably house the population of Dublin as things stand -- Goodness knows how we're going to house them in 10 or 15 years. I'm still waiting for a clear demolition of Crosbie's proposal. The more petty and indecisive the criticism, the more I begin to suspect there's *something* in it.

humberklog

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

In other ways, however, the topic is bigger than either Crosbie or Finucane. We don't have enough space to sustainably house the population of Dublin as things stand -- Goodness knows how we're going to house them in 10 or 15 years. I'm still waiting for a clear demolition of Crosbie's proposal. The more petty and indecisive the criticism, the more I begin to suspect there's *something* in it.

I'd love to see this area filled. It makes huge sense. But the southside proposal is much more a goer. Get the crew from Dubai to build on a slower turning tide (uneffected by river flow) and on an easily explorable site. Job jobbed.

But the idea some dude is gonna Sica fill a site without knowing how much is needed? Nah.

But my point really isn't to whack HC over the head, my point is that MF let him away with bonkers economics.

humberklog

humberklog wrote: »

But my point really isn't to whack HC over the head, my point is that MF let him away with bonkers economics.

I don't quite understand the difference between the Clontarf vs Sandymount ideas, but on this much, we're definitely on the same page. Let's not forget Finucane has been a qualified architect. You'd have expected her to bring a little more to the interview than the average housewife, credulous to the assurances of the local builder.

humberklog

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't quite understand the difference between the Clontarf vs Sandymount ideas, but on this much, we're definitely on the same page. Let's not forget Finucane has been a qualified architect. You'd have expected her to bring a little more to the interview than the average housewife, credulous to the assurances of the local builder.

Sandymount has a known and easily identified substructure (what's under the sand) and how deep it is to attain that shelf economically. The tide is long, shallow and easy to plan around.

Clontarf is tidal quick quick with a low to no tide to quite a few feet in height in a matter of minutes and it has a river running into it.

The existing sludge will have to be extracted (how much and to where?). the infill will have to come from somewhere, where?

Harry is kinda saying he knows a way of bringing 250acres of shovel ready land built on an historically known oyster, clam etc. mudflat for 200million?

Brendan Bendar

humberklog wrote: »

Sandymount has a known and easily identified substructure (what's under the sand) and how deep it is to attain that shelf economically. The tide is long, shallow and easy to plan around.

Clontarf is tidal quick quick with a low to no tide to quite a few feet in height in a matter of minutes and it has a river running into it.

The existing sludge will have to be extracted (how much and to where?). the infill will have to come from somewhere, where?

Harry is kinda saying he knows a way of bringing 250acres of shovel ready land built on an historically known oyster, clam etc. mudflat for 200million?

I’m with you there Humber, seems to be flying some kind of kite?

humberklog

humberklog wrote: »

Sandymount has a known and easily identified substructure (what's under the sand) and how deep it is to attain that shelf economically. The tide is long, shallow and easy to plan around.

Clontarf is tidal quick quick with a low to no tide to quite a few feet in height in a matter of minutes and it has a river running into it.

Surely the substructure in Clontarf is also known. That part of the bay (in Clontarf) can also be something of an eyesore; it doesn't have a pleasant view, and is usually mud.

I think both sites should be explored, I suspect both will be built upon eventually anyway. But Sandymount is a valuable amenity in ta way that that part of the bay in Clontarf is not.

I really think the cost is slightly moot because the sale of land will easily cover it, even it were somehow to run into billions.

plodder

humberklog wrote: »

Sandymount has a known and easily identified substructure (what's under the sand) and how deep it is to attain that shelf economically. The tide is long, shallow and easy to plan around.

Clontarf is tidal quick quick with a low to no tide to quite a few feet in height in a matter of minutes and it has a river running into it.

The existing sludge will have to be extracted (how much and to where?). the infill will have to come from somewhere, where?

Harry is kinda saying he knows a way of bringing 250acres of shovel ready land built on an historically known oyster, clam etc. mudflat for 200million?

Didn't realise that was Harry Crosbie as I only turned it on during the conversation. i thought his reasons for not doing it in Sandymount were not very convincing and I assumed he just lived there.

But you could build the Eastern bypass at the same time, and you could even put a decent sized lagoon/lake where the existing seafront is and only build further out. fwiw, I think filling in at Clontarf is also a good idea, but you would have to keep a channel for the Tolka.

I thought Marian made one good point, that much of those areas are already reclaimed. We should definitely be looking at these ideas and not dismissing them out of hand straight away.

serfboard

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Harry Crosbie again.

Turned on Radio 1. Heard it was Harry Crosbie, turned it over.

Marian has some track record with these types - Seanie Fitz, Seanie Dunne, Brian "Gorse Hill" O'Donell etc. etc.

I don't listen to the show on Saturdays that much principally because her Saturday morning interviews are frequently these types of people - multimillionaires given 45 minutes of a free unchallenged run on one of the country's most popular radio shows to whinge and bitch. (Who can forget Seanie Fitz's "we're over-regulated" before his very under-regulated gambling house crashed, pulling the country down with it).

You could argue that Marian is giving them enough rope so they hang themselves, but she's no Gay Byrne interviewing Padraic Flynn ...

ShamNNspace

serfboard wrote: »

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Harry Crosbie again.

Turned on Radio 1. Heard it was Harry Crosbie, turned it over.

Marian has some track record with these types - Seanie Fitz, Seanie Dunne, Brian "Gorse Hill" O'Donell etc. etc.

I don't listen to the show on Saturdays that much principally because her Saturday morning interviews are frequently these types of people - multimillionaires given 45 minutes of a free unchallenged run on one of the country's most popular radio shows to whinge and bitch. (Who can forget Seanie Fitz's "we're over-regulated" before his very under-regulated gambling house crashed, pulling the country down with it).

You could argue that Marian is giving them enough rope so they hang themselves, but she's no Gay Byrne interviewing Padraic Flynn ...

All the boyo's you mention above are living more or less the same lifestyle they did pre crash despite being virtually broke
Crosbie himself is on a wage from nama
Tis some craic allright

Brendan Bendar

ShamNNspace wrote: »

All the boyo's you mention above are living more or less the same lifestyle they did pre crash despite being virtually broke
Crosbie himself is on a wage from nama
Tis some craic allright

Yes, most of them seem to be getting along just fine, despite all the ‘losses’.

Some craic as you rightly say.

serfboard

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Yes, most of them seem to be getting along just fine, despite all the ‘losses’.

Remember the motto - "privatised gains, socialised losses".

Brendan Bendar

serfboard wrote: »

Remember the motto - "privatised gains, socialised losses".

Could you drill down a bit into that ‘motto’ dude.

Break it down and explain what exactly it has to do with this thread.


Thanking you.

Oops69

This interview with the referree has to be the most pointless of they year , it should be on a local radio late night sports slot.

BarryD2

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Crosbie himself is on a wage from nama

Is he? For someone in that position, he came across as a bit arrogant last week in how he presented his ideas.

Oops69

whatever about radio in the old days at least Cadbury's fry's chocolate tasted good then.

Callan57

Oops69 wrote: »

whatever about radio in the old days at least Cadbury's fry's chocolate tasted good then.

About the only chocolate I never liked