Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Dia1988

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Not sure if this has been posted, by you can find nurse pay by clicking on this link, go to consolidated pay scale 2018 and page 11 lists pay for nurses.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/benefitsservices/pay/

that only list basic salary.

doesn't include the allowances that they exploit

Twenty Grand

Dia1988 wrote: »

that only list basic salary.

doesn't include the allowances that they exploit

Very salty.

Paulzx

Dia1988 wrote: »

that only list basic salary.

doesn't include the allowances that they exploit

What do you mean by exploit?

Sunflower 27

Paulzx wrote: »

What do you mean by exploit?

I think he/she is talking about night/weekend allowances. How very dare they....

Twenty Grand

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

I think he/she is talking about night/weekend allowances. How very dare they....

How dare they take advantage of incentives!! :rolleyes:

4ensic15

road_high wrote: »

I have to laugh at the last sentence as it’s blows my mind on so many levels- stats show that our health service is in fact one of the best funded on a per capita basis- something very wrong with how we are spending the money and the value for money we are getting.
And if we are a busted flush as a nation then no amount of “if we want something we’ll have to pay for it...” intentions will work. If the money isn’t there and non one is willing to lend us money then the proverbial hits the fan

The total amount of money going into the health service is high. The service level provided is low. It is clear that the budget is being hopelessly mismanaged.
There is no getting away from that fact that if a certain level of service is required it will have to be paid for and the people asked to do the work have to be given decent pay and conditions. It is ridiculous to expect people to put up with substandard pay and conditions.

Sunflower 27

4ensic15 wrote: »

The total amount of money going into the health service is high. The service level provided is low. It is clear that the budget is being hopelessly being mismanaged.
There is no getting away from that fact that if a certain level of service is required it will have to be paid for and the people asked to do the work have to be given decent pay and conditions. It is ridiculous to expect people to put up with substandard pay and conditions.

Absolutely. Too top heavy with highly paid management positions. I work in a hospital. It's a joke!

Richard Hillman

Emergency Services should get tax exemptions. No USC or extra tax credits

alexmalalex

I said it yesterday, and I'll say it again... I believe the answer is some type of performance incentive linked to productivity i.e., you get X percent based on health-related outcomes, etc.

Dia1988

alexmalalex wrote: »

I said it yesterday, and I'll say it again... I believe the answer is some type of performance incentive linked to productivity i.e., you get X percent based on health-related outcomes, etc.

So, every patient that dies under the nurses watch reduce their pay by say 1k?

Seems fair!

alexmalalex

Dia1988 wrote: »

So, every patient that dies under the nurses watch reduce their pay by say 1k?

Seems fair!

No, efficiency related outcomes, use of resources, etc.

Martina1991

alexmalalex wrote:

No, efficiency related outcomes, use of resources, etc.

How would you do that. Every patients condition and treatment are different.
Do you get more money for looking after a more difficult patient?

Your idea doesn't make sense.

alexmalalex

Martina1991 wrote: »

How would you do that. Every patients condition and treatment are different.
Do you get more money for looking after a more difficult patient?

Your idea doesn't make sense.

No you get more money if you use less resources, and achieve faster throughput. Everyone can work more efficiently, and nurses are no exception

Clearly, patient health and safety are paramount, but there are more efficient ways to do things...keep things moving...use less resources...more efficient routines...two steps instead of three

Its the little things when they add up that make a difference

twowheelsonly

alexmalalex wrote: »

No, efficiency related outcomes, use of resources, etc.

Then they need to start at the top management levels.

What the HSE pays out on leases on buildings is absolutely ridiculous figures. I'd love to know the total but individual ones are crazy.

They pay (in 2017) €203,000 pa for the Castlerea Primary Health Care building, €328k for the Roscommon equivalent and €236k for the Longford equivalent. In Leitrim alone they have 13 buildings leased (albeit at smaller costs) That's just nuts.

This is the Castlerea building BTW.. Others mentioned are along the same lines.


http://https://www.google.ie/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x485c1d9a829a864f:0x30ad4d4343d02ca5!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4s/maps/place/castlerea%2Bprimary%2Bcare%2Bcentre/@53.7701758,-8.5049862,3a,75y,283.98h,90t/data%3D*213m4*211e1*213m2*211sDf28_aVDOMb1mLi5Ku361g*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x485c1d9a829a864f:0x30ad4d4343d02ca5!5scastlerea+primary+care+centre+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sDf28_aVDOMb1mLi5Ku361g&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwim-qr2z-bfAhV5SBUIHROfBRwQpx8wCnoECAUQBg

BTW: Houses in Castlerea would rent for 600 to 700 per month just for comparison purposes. Most commercial properties would also be a lot less than what they're paying for this place. Bear in mind that this scenario is repeated all over the country.

Sunflower 27

twowheelsonly wrote: »

http://https://www.google.ie/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x485c1d9a829a864f:0x30ad4d4343d02ca5!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4s/maps/place/castlerea%2Bprimary%2Bcare%2Bcentre/@53.7701758,-8.5049862,3a,75y,283.98h,90t/data%3D*213m4*211e1*213m2*211sDf28_aVDOMb1mLi5Ku361g*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x485c1d9a829a864f:0x30ad4d4343d02ca5!5scastlerea+primary+care+centre+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sDf28_aVDOMb1mLi5Ku361g&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwim-qr2z-bfAhV5SBUIHROfBRwQpx8wCnoECAUQBg

Couldn't have said it better

Geuze

4ensic15 wrote: »

This row is all about conditions. there are plenty of well qualified people who work for low pay such as librarians and college lecturers.

College lecturers are paid fairly well.

37k-84k.

4ensic15

Geuze wrote: »

College lecturers are paid fairly well.

37k-84k.

A huge number are on temporary contracts and are at the foothills of the earnings mountain. A few long-established ones are at reasonable levels.

Martina1991

alexmalalex wrote: »

No you get more money if you use less resources, and achieve faster throughput. Everyone can work more efficiently, and nurses are no exception

Clearly, patient health and safety are paramount, but there are more efficient ways to do things...keep things moving...use less resources...more efficient routines...two steps instead of three

Its the little things when they add up that make a difference

Cut back on what resources? Give me examples.
Some patients need scans, some need blood tests, some need a surgical consult, some require further investigation to determine what's wrong with them, some need to be monitored on medication to see if their condition improves.

You can't say to a patient "time's up, I've wasted too many resources on you. I have 10 more patients I need to get through tonight. NEXT".

alexmalalex

Martina1991 wrote: »

Cut back on what resources? Give me examples.
Some patients need scans, some need blood tests, some need a surgical consult, some require further investigation to determine what's wrong with them, some need to be monitored on medication to see if their condition improves.

You can't say to a patient "time's up, I've wasted too many resources on you. I have 10 more patients I need to get through tonight. NEXT".

Come on Martina, be somewhat reasonable...

How long does it take to wait on the results of a blood test at peak times? Could the patient be referred to GP if they are not having an MI or bleeding from the jugular...

Most people attending A&E are neither accident nor emergency. Nurses could play a role in making quicker assessments and getting throughput

They have similar knowledge to doctors...and an experience nurse probably has better intuitions than a doctor...

MaryBrosnan

alexmalalex wrote: »

I said it yesterday, and I'll say it again... I believe the answer is some type of performance incentive linked to productivity i.e., you get X percent based on health-related outcomes, etc.

Nonsensical post.

Martina1991

alexmalalex wrote: »

Come on Martina, be somewhat reasonable...

How long does it take to wait on the results of a blood test at peak times? Could the patient be referred to GP if they are not having an MI or bleeding from the jugular...

Most people attending A&E are neither accident nor emergency. Nurses could play a role in making quicker assessments and getting throughput

They have similar knowledge to doctors...and an experience nurse probably has better intuitions than a doctor...

It takes less than 1 hour for blood test results to come back from A and E. You can't refer a patient from A and E to a GP because they are booked up with appointments. That's why people resort to coming to A and E.

What resources would you cut?

Ninthlife

alexmalalex wrote: »

No you get more money if you use less resources, and achieve faster throughput. Everyone can work more efficiently, and nurses are no exception

Clearly, patient health and safety are paramount, but there are more efficient ways to do things...keep things moving...use less resources...more efficient routines...two steps instead of three

Its the little things when they add up that make a difference

How many staff would you need to administer such a scheme? Would cost more to run than anything

alexmalalex

Martina1991 wrote: »

It takes less than 1 hour for blood test results to come back from A and E. You can't refer a patient from A and E to a GP because they are booked up with appointments. That's why people resort to coming to A and E.

What resources would you cut?

Of course, you can if its not an emergency. If its not an emergency, people should be referred back. In Dublin, we have dubdoc...you get an appointment at short notice

The triage nurse plays a major role in the A&E department IMO. Although my experience is quite limited, I've spent quite a few nights in A&E, and was quite shocked by how healthy many of the people were...if the triage nurse could screen out the time and money wasters, it would improve throughput?

Would it not?

4ensic15

alexmalalex wrote: »

Of course, you can if its not an emergency. If its not an emergency, people should be referred back. In Dublin, we have dubdoc...you get an appointment at short notice

The triage nurse plays a major role in the A&E department IMO. Although my experience is quite limited, I've spent quite a few nights in A&E, and was quite shocked by how healthy many of the people were...if the triage nurse could screen out the time and money wasters, it would improve throughput?

Would it not?

Moving a problem around does not solve it for one thing. What is going to happen when a nurse sends someone to a GP and there is a negative outcome? Patient turns out to be seriously ill despite appearances. Patient deteriorates before GP intervenes.

Martina1991

alexmalalex wrote: »

Of course, you can if its not an emergency. If its not an emergency, people should be referred back. In Dublin, we have dubdoc...you get an appointment at short notice

The triage nurse plays a major role in the A&E department IMO. Although my experience is quite limited, I've spent quite a few nights in A&E, and was quite shocked by how healthy many of the people were...if the triage nurse could screen out the time and money wasters, it would improve throughput?

Would it not?

Services would not be that fast or effective outside of Dublin.

No one comes to A and E for the craic. So many illnesses are invisible to the public. Just because you don't see people writhing in agony doesn't mean they don't need medical attention.

evolving_doors

Geuze wrote: »

College lecturers are paid fairly well.

37k-84k.

Eh! A college lecturer on 37k is being paid fairly well?

Zico

I think medical professionals should be very well paid but someone else should pay them.

Martina1991

Weighing in on the topic at hand, I do think nurses should have their pay restored (not a pay rise). Comparing it to some of the other medical professions below, their pay scales are the lowest for the degree and qualifications they require. Each one has opportunities to boost their wages with extra shifts/ on call payment, but for the work that is carried out, payment should be restored in line with the other professions.

Nurse
1. 29,056
2. 31,110
3. 32,171
4. 33,367
5. 34,876
6. 36,383
7. 37,883
8. 39,180
9. 40,480
10. 41,775
11. 43,070
12. 44,343
13. 45,701

Pharmacist
1. 33,491
2. 36,150
3. 37,099
4. 40,054
5. 42,860
6. 45,700
7. 48,551
8. 51,438
9. 54,342
10. 57,300
11. 60,311
12. 63,379
13. 64,611

Occupational Therapist
1. 35,672
2. 37,784
3. 39,522
4. 40,786
5. 41,856
6. 42,965
7. 44,059
8. 45,184
9. 46,301
10. 47,418
11. 48,595
12. 49,833
13. 51,069
14. 52,059

Medical Scientist
1. 32,692
2. 34,051
3. 36,211
4. 37,235
5. 38,208
6. 40,510
7. 41,999
8. 43,503
9. 45,032
10. 46,558
11. 48,089
12. 49,632
13. 51,185
14. 52,756
15. 54,282
16. 55,331

Physio
1. 35,672
2. 37,784
3. 39,522
4. 40,786
5. 41,856
6. 42,965
7. 44,059
8. 45,184
9. 46,301
10. 47,418
11. 48,595
12. 49,833
13. 51,069
14. 52,059

Radiographer
1. 34,242
2. 36,228
3. 37,933
4. 39,025
5. 40,135
6. 41,259
7. 42,352
8. 43,442
9. 44,573
10. 45,678
11. 46,746
12. 47,843
13. 48,976
14. 50,040

obby1

the Healy-Rae brothers are on close to 100k as a TD, and people round here think nurses are over paid?

Tell me how

Martina1991 wrote: »

Weighing in on the topic at hand, I do think nurses should have their pay restored (not a pay rise). Comparing it to some of the other medical professions below, their pay scales are the lowest for the degree and qualifications they require. Each one has opportunities to boost their wages with extra shifts/ on call payment, but for the work that is carried out, payment should be restored in line with the other professions.

Nurses are an extremely critical part of our Health Care System but each of those other professions have more responsibility in determining what care path to take for the patient (maybe not pharmacists who to a large degree are operating on Dr's instructions, AFAIK)

Nurses do not have to make critical decisions such as this. They react to a Dr's instructions, again, as I understand it.

I'm not trying to be insulting here, let me give an example of a profession I am more familiar with.
An electrician must train for 4 years. An Engineer must train for 4 years. the Engineer can expect to earn more because they will generally be responsible for design decisions in a way that an electrician will not.

(I know an electrician does not have a degree but they do block release in college in a similar fashion to nurses.)
I know nurses have to perform critical actions which could have life altering implications, but so too must the electrician.