Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

skipper_G

I think people don't appreciate how good Russell is because he's been in a terrible car, he's been very far ahead of Kubica. Latifi will almost certainly be an improvement on Kubica but how much of an improvement is an unknown. The bigger unknown is if Williams can remember how to build a racing car again.

pjohnson

skipper_G wrote: »

I think people don't appreciate how good Russell is because he's been in a terrible car, he's been very far ahead of Kubica. Latifi will almost certainly be an improvement on Kubica but how much of an improvement is an unknown. The bigger unknown is if Williams can remember how to build a racing car again.

Russell has been very badly underappreciated this year.

H3llR4iser

Russell will most likely end in a Mercedes, maybe as early as 2021...really depends on what Vettel and Hamilton decide to do, but George is Merc's equivalent of Leclerc...

El_Duderino 09

pjohnson wrote: »

Russell has been very badly underappreciated this year.

It's his first year in f1 with an old driver with a physical disability as a teammate (who he is beating handily in almost every single quali and race) There's no telling how good he actually is yet. He could be a superstar, could be a Hulk type journeyman.

pjohnson

Vettel has just had his third child and is skipping the press conferences today, Bottas has to take a grid penalty due to his Brazil engine expiring. Bottas has also announced on twitter he is getting a divorce.

ELM327

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Depends. If he's within half a second of Russell, he'll be both a step up bit could still be a complete failure.

Kubica is without doubt one of the furthest off the pace of the last decade. There were some Exclusively pay drivers who were bad. But kubica is a pay driver now too.

It's unfortunate because before the accident he had a lot of potential (even mooted with a move to ferrari).


He's done well to get back to the grid but I agree he's off the pace and even in a nothing car like the williams this year, which is often statistically worse than the hrt/marussias etc were, it's not good enough.

El_Duderino 09

pjohnson wrote: »

Vettel has just had his third child and is skipping the press conferences today, Bottas has to take a grid penalty due to his Brazil engine expiring. Bottas has also announced on twitter he is getting a divorce.

Ah I'm sorry to hear that about Bottas. Seems like a private guy so I imagine he won't enjoy being asked about that by journalists, 20 times a day.

Now that you've told me I'll be sure not to click on any stories about it.

El_Duderino 09

ELM327 wrote: »

It's unfortunate because before the accident he had a lot of potential (even mooted with a move to ferrari).


He's done well to get back to the grid but I agree he's off the pace and even in a nothing car like the williams this year, which is often statistically worse than the hrt/marussias etc were, it's not good enough.

He was linked with ferrari and had potential. So were hulk and grosjean linked with ferrari moves.

I accept he might have had great potential. But as you said, he's not on the pace now and that'd what matters now.

pjohnson

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah I'm sorry to hear that about Bottas. Seems like a private guy so I imagine he won't enjoy being asked about that by journalists, 20 times a day.

Now that you've told me I'll be sure not to click on any stories about it.

It apparently leaked in Finnish press so he put it on twitter confirming the divorce and that that was all he was saying.

PopePalpatine

Well, I guess I'll be waiting for C4's highlights this weekend.

H3llR4iser

oooh, this might start shedding a bit of light about why Ferrari suddenly started facing accusations of various sorts lately:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-unhappy-with-ferrari-for-not-blocking-2021-rules/?utm_source=vuukle&utm_medium=talk_of_town

AMKC

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Well, I guess I'll be waiting for C4's highlights this weekend.

Me too. Maybe we could start a C4 highlights thread :rolleyes:

Sad to hear about Bottas and his marriage but its just a fact of life. I have seen it happen to lots of people I know some family some not. I attended a wedding there a couple of months ago and they had only known each other for two years. I really would not optimistic about it lasting 10 years but then what would I know.I just think it takes at least four to five years with someone before even thinking about getting hitched.

AMKC

H3llR4iser wrote: »

oooh, this might start shedding a bit of light about why Ferrari suddenly started facing accusations of various sorts lately:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-unhappy-with-ferrari-for-not-blocking-2021-rules/?utm_source=vuukle&utm_medium=talk_of_town

Oh that's very interesting alright. I actually laughed with delight when I seen the headline.

H3llR4iser

AMKC wrote: »

Oh that's very interesting alright. I actually laughed with delight when I seen the headline.

It's very funny because Red Bull and Mercedes have been the most vocal against Ferrari's veto power in the past, but now they basically hope for them to do their bidding.

It's like that one kid that went around p1ssing people off in school because his best mate was a big guy. Then one day, the big guy is out sick...

El_Duderino 09

Anything that Mercedes doesn't want is probably good from the perspective of breaking their stranglehold on the sport.

The ferrari veto is the biggest load of bullshyte in any sport I can think of. Giving the biggest, wealthiest team the power to make the rules. Imagine man utd making the rules for the Premiership.

It just serves to remind you that f1 is a balance of sport, business and entertainment. The ferrari veto is a big weighting in favour of business and entertainment and a slap in the face to sport.

H3llR4iser

The Ferrari veto is an odd thing indeed; When it came into fruition in 1980, with the first "Concorde Agreement", it had some sense - most of the F1 teams "lived" in a relatively small area in England; Enzo Ferrari himself was already 82 years old, still very much heading the company but unable to travel (the meeting for the Concorde Agreement was actually held in Maranello for this very reason).

Ferrari made the point that the English teams could theoretically agree new rules amongst themselves in England and present them as a done deal, as they'd have the votes to pass whatever they agreed on. The "veto power" was granted in order to avoid such scenario. It created an weird situation where it is entirely possible for Ferrari to block any rule changes, but impossible for them to effectively pass any (theoretically, in a wall-against-wall scenario, Ferrari would constantly veto everything, while other teams would not vote whatever Ferrari proposed).
Somehow, it stuck all the way to 2019 (I believe knowledge of such power wasn't public domain until the whole Concord Agreement was leaked to the press in 1997). It is undeniable by anybody who's ever attended a Grand Prix in person that Ferrari still hold a huge bargaining power - anywhere you go, at least 50% of the crowds are wearing red or waving flags with the prancing horse.

What's more interesting is that even with such power, Ferrari aren't constantly dominating. Sure enough, there has been a time, specifically between 1993 and 1996, where the rulebook was progressively rewritten with the explicit goal of allowing them back to the front (starting with refueling in 1994 to help the V12), but still...they go for long stints without success. It's now been 12 years without a WDC, the second longest after the 21 years drought between 1979-2000. Actually, since having "veto" in the 1981 season, it took Ferrari 19 full season to clinch their first "double" - WDC and WCC.

If they were effectively "making the rules", this wouldn't really happen; Actually, the current rules were pretty much tailor-made to bring Mercedes into the utter dominance we've been seeing. Either Ferrari don't use their veto powers as much as people think they do, or they're so clueless they can't even figure out the rules they wanted.

El_Duderino 09

H3llR4iser wrote: »

If they were effectively "making the rules", this wouldn't really happen; Actually, the current rules were pretty much tailor-made to bring Mercedes into the utter dominance we've been seeing. Either Ferrari don't use their veto powers as much as people think they do, or they're so clueless they can't even figure out the rules they wanted.

That's a really interesting history of the Ferrari veto. But the last paragraph ignores the fact that ferrari are probably the worst value for money team on the grid. Saying they don't win so they obviously don't make the rules is like saying they don't always win so they must not have the biggest budget.

Ferrari are without doubt the best team at ballsing up the sweet little deals they get. I mean, the Ferrari Road cars are synonymous with bring unreliable and expensive to maintain. They still manage to carry on even though they make a poor product and have an incredible reputation so it balances out. A bit like the F1 outfit. They have all the advantages of biggest fan Base, biggest revenue and more influence on the rules than any other team. But still they're not the best.

muckwarrior

I notice that Kubica often matches or even beats Russell in FP1, but then Russell pulls ahead as the weekend goes on. I wonder is this a sign that Kubica's driving instincts are still superior but it's just his phyiscal disability that stops him reaching the limit. I.e. he can get straight in the car and go fast, or get the setup right very quickly, but then as more strength is required to get the last few percent out of the car he just doesn't have it?

El_Duderino 09

muckwarrior wrote: »

I notice that Kubica often matches or even beats Russell in FP1, but then Russell pulls ahead as the weekend goes on. I wonder is this a sign that Kubica's driving instincts are still superior but it's just his phyiscal disability that stops him reaching the limit. I.e. he can get straight in the car and go fast, or get the setup right very quickly, but then as more strength is required to get the last few percent out of the car he just doesn't have it?

So he is about as good as a rookie at setting up the car and it's Al downhill from there.

Sometimes the harder people try to make something sound good, the more obvious it becomes that you have to try really hard to make it look good.

Right now Russell is just shy of half a second ahead of kubica which would be about normal for quali and the race. We'll see how fp1 finishes.

Update: Russell put in a fast lap to go 1.2s ahead of kubica.

Kubica improves to 0.9 slower than Russell

They were both on soft until now.
Half an hour to go and Russell switching to hards, kubica to mediums so that's likely it.

I'm not seeing the legendary setup ability or the "hop in the car and go fast straight away" ability either. But only looking at the reality so I'm probably not seeing what others are seeing.

pjohnson

Imagine how quite the 2020 will thread be without the updates of "Kubica is the worst ever ok"

That "discussion" was pointless after about 6 races

muckwarrior

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So he is about as good as a rookie at setting up the car and it's Al downhill from there.

Sometimes the harder people try to make something sound good, the more obvious it becomes that you have to try really hard to make it look good.

Right now Russell is just shy of half a second ahead of kubica which would be about normal for quali and the race. We'll see how fp1 finishes.

Update: Russell put in a fast lap to go 1.2s ahead of kubica.

Kubica improves to 0.9 slower than Russell

They were both on soft until now.
Half an hour to go and Russell switching to hards, kubica to mediums so that's likely it.

I'm not seeing the legendary setup ability or the "hop in the car and go fast straight away" ability either. But only looking at the reality so prompt seeing what others are seeing.

That's FP2. Kubica finished a half second ahead of Russell in FP1.

mickdw

In the races, a lot of the time kubica appears to be ahead to about half distance and then the gap closes up, Russell overtakes and finishes half a lap ahead.
Not much info on the tv feed and I don't use timing apps or anything like that but that is what it seems like.
I'd like to know more detail.

H3llR4iser

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's a really interesting history of the Ferrari veto. But the last paragraph ignores the fact that ferrari are probably the worst value for money team on the grid. Saying they don't win so they obviously don't make the rules is like saying they don't always win so they must not have the biggest budget.

Ferrari are without doubt the best team at ballsing up the sweet little deals they get. I mean, the Ferrari Road cars are synonymous with bring unreliable and expensive to maintain. They still manage to carry on even though they make a poor product and have an incredible reputation so it balances out. A bit like the F1 outfit. They have all the advantages of biggest fan Base, biggest revenue and more influence on the rules than any other team. But still they're not the best.

Yeah, they've demonstrated they're able to pretty much throw away any advantage they might have, no doubt about that - and I'll go further, this seems to happen whenever they have Italian management. With Todt/Brawn in charge, Ferrari was a total killing machine.

As for the road products, that's quite an outdated view not only about Ferrari but the whole FCA stable (soon to become FCPSA or whatever, it's gonna be a disater anyway).

Jordan 199

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El_Duderino 09

mickdw wrote: »

In the races, a lot of the time kubica appears to be ahead to about half distance and then the gap closes up, Russell overtakes and finishes half a lap ahead.
Not much info on the tv feed and I don't use timing apps or anything like that but that is what it seems like.
I'd like to know more detail.

I followed them in Brazil he got ahead at the start I think. Russell was all over him but couldn't find a way past even at the pitstop. Then he did get past but didn't open a huge gap, 3-4 seconds. Then the safety cars happened and somehow kubica didn't unlap himself so they ended up a lap apart. He might have pitted for fresh tyres and missed the opportunity to unlap.

El_Duderino 09

muckwarrior wrote: »

That's FP2. Kubica finished a half second ahead of Russell in FP1.

Fair one.

Cork Trucker

muckwarrior wrote: »

That's FP2. Kubica finished a half second ahead of Russell in FP1.

It would make you question what is going on in the team if Kubica can finish half a second ahead in FP1 & 0.9 behind in FP2, it wasn't the first time this season it happened either.

Separately, it appears Kubica has confirmed this is his final ever F1 race. Regardless of what job people think he may have done this year, for someone with a permanent physical disability what he achieved was remarkable, yes he might not have been upto the standards of F1, but to drive an F1 car at all in itself is something else considering the limitations.

skipper_G

It's free practice, it means nothing. The only stat that matters is Russell on average is 6 tenths quicker in qualy and has hammered him. Credit to Kubica for getting back into an F1 car absolutely, he deserves credit and respect for that achievement. But I wish people would stop being delusional and coming up with nonsense explanations why he's not quick enough

pjohnson

Kubica has said before that the car acts differently between sessions. Russell has also said the car is prone to sudden changes in behaviour between sessions and even during races between laps. The Williams car is a total disaster in itself but also appears to have Haas like issues regarding tyres and heating them.



In 2020 news -
Williams have also announced that they will be running an Israeli test driver in the Abu Dhabi test. No its not actually Chanoch himself buying another F1 seat but rather his son Roy Nissany is joining them. Will he be as legendary as his father?

skipper_G

pjohnson wrote: »

Kubica has said before that the car acts differently between sessions. Russell has also said the car is prone to sudden changes in behaviour between sessions and even during races between laps. The Williams car is a total disaster in itself but also appears to have Haas like issues regarding tyres and heating them.



In 2020 news -
Williams have also announced that they will be running an Israeli test driver in the Abu Dhabi test. No its not actually Chanoch himself buying another F1 seat but rather his son Roy Nissany is joining them. Will he be as legendary as his father?

Roy Nissany

Is this the F1 team equivalent of taking the cushions off the couch looking for loose change?