Generation Identity

Wibbs

Odhinn wrote: »

6 paragraphs of guff, no better than skooters "contribution" at the end of the day.

So... like in every single case I've replied for my (many)sins to one of your posts, you either avoid engaging like the plague, or resort to half arsed insult? I could claim I expect better of you, but that would mark me out a liar.

Here's a thought and for a nice change, how about debating the points? I know, I know...

Wibbs

Odhinn wrote: »

"The finding in Demos's report A Place for Pride that 83% of Muslims said they were proud to be a British citizen, compared with the national average of 79%, has been met with surprise in some parts of the press."

How naive are you? Do you have any understanding of human nature? If I'm living in a country and culture and am not quite of that country and culture and under current pretty hardcore scrutiny and that is impressed upon me on a near daily basis by the "locals", do you really think when faced with a question on a poll about how proud I am to be [insert host country here], that I'm likely to tick the box that says I'm not proud of it? I'd have been surprised if the poll found that British Muslims weren't saying they were the most "proud to be British". The local British again would have barely considered the question and more, would have felt far freer to answer in the negative. This is really basic stuff here. When the Brixton riots were in full swing back in the day, normal everyday Caribbean folks when Vox popped were very keen on stating the Gawd save the queen stuff. Obviously.

Odhinn

Wibbs wrote: »

How naive are you? Do you have any understanding of human nature? If I'm living in a country and culture and am not quite of that country and culture and under current pretty hardcore scrutiny and that is impressed upon me on a near daily basis by the "locals", do you really think when faced with a question on a poll about how proud I am to be [insert host country here], that I'm likely to tick the box that says I'm not proud of it? This is really basic stuff here.

Any aul excuse to ignore data that disagrees with your nonsense eh?

Wibbs

Odhinn wrote: »

Any aul excuse to ignore data that disagrees with your nonsense eh?

:pac::D:D Man, you truly are the oblivious gift that keeps on giving.



When the discussion on another thread was about how ME countries were not helping local refugees, I provided a lump of links backing this and yet again... No real debate on points raised. well, what would one expect from a duck but a quack.

buried

Wibbs wrote: »

Just writing down a definition doesn't make it true on the ground. Except for the naive or obtuse. Ask a third generation "native" Algerian man in Paris how native French he feels and feels he is treated. Ask the same of a "native" Pakistani lad in Birmingham. Ask a White French or English man the same question. It'll likely never have even occurred to him that it's a question needing to be considered.

Multiculturalism fails all sides and the irony and sad joke, is that it fails the "native, but not quite native enough" especially of a different hue the most.

But this is the thing Wibbs man, Multiculturalism is failing, but multiculturalism wasn't the catalyst to the problem. As long as large swathes of the planet are being exploited, torn up in warfare, the people from those places that are being torn up are going to want to flee to another area of the planet that isn't being torn up. And the real irony is this, - the places of the planet that these people are trying to flee to, they are the countries in the west whose successive governments were the puppet masters, the maestro's in exploiting and destroying those countries the refugees are trying to flee from.

We have countless posters up in here bitching and moaning about "Syrian Refugees", well how about this lads - Maybe don't willfully engage in a illegal war in a neighbouring state that will destabilise an entire f**king region and allow states like Syria to turn into absolute Hell. Western Governments won't call it what it is - which is their absolute total f**kup in destabilising entire swathes of the rest of the planet. Iraq opened up the gates of Hell, and it was the West what opened it. Iraq and Syria didn't bomb the twin towers, Saudi citizens did that. Go bomb and destabilise Saudi Arabia. Oh yeah, can't be doing that, because of, y'know, more western bull$hit hypocrisy. The west is just going to have to suck it up because it is living an absolute total lie and can't own up to its own actual evildoing while preaching that it is the bastion of light, democracy and truth.

Wibbs

buried wrote: »

But this is the thing Wibbs man, Multiculturalism is failing, but multiculturalism wasn't the catalyst to the problem.

I would disagree on this score B. IMH it has almost never worked anywhere or anywhen.

As long as large swathes of the planet are being exploited, torn up in warfare, the people from those places that are being torn up are going to want to flee to another area of the planet that isn't being torn up. And the real irony is this, - the places of the planet that these people are trying to flee to, they are the countries in the west whose successive governments were the puppet masters, the maestro's in exploiting and destroying those countries the refugees are trying to flee from.

We have countless posters up in here bitching and moaning about "Syrian Refugees", well how about this lads - Maybe don't willfully engage in a illegal war in a neighbouring state that will destabilise an entire f**king region and allow states like Syria to turn into absolute Hell. Western Governments won't call it what it is - which is their absolute total f**kup in destabilising entire swathes of the rest of the planet. Iraq opened up the gates of Hell, and it was the West what opened it. Iraq and Syria didn't bomb the twin towers, Saudi citizens did that. Go bomb and destabilise Saudi Arabia. Oh yeah, can't be doing that, because of, y'know, more western bull$hit hypocrisy.

The west is just going to have to suck it up because it is living an absolute total lie and can't own up to its own actual evildoing while preaching that it is the bastion of light, democracy and truth.

Sure B. However and it's a big bloody however, the "West" is not of one monolithic voice. Not even close. That's just the same as saying "all Muslim countries are fundy crapholes and the ruination of the world". The UK, the US, Russia and a couple of others most certainly have a huge role to play in this current nonsense(and have taken eff all, or none in, with the exception of the UK). But Denmark, or Sweden, or Holland, or Ireland, or Belgium, or Italy, or Greece, or...? Eh nope. Or maybe I missed the part where Irish fighter bombers were flattening Syrian cities, or shoring up the Saudi royal family. SubSaharan "refugees"? If anything Ireland through those "on the missions" back in the day helped many in those countries, something quite a few folks in that neck of the world have acknowledged.

So why the hell should we "suck it up" for things we quite simply had zero part of? Just because we're western and white? White guilt? That's just as "racist" as suggesting all Black Africans are somehow to blame for the Rwandan massacres and subsequent flood of refugees from the place.

buried

Wibbs wrote: »

I would disagree on this score B. IMH it has almost never worked anywhere or anywhen.

Sure B. However and it's a big bloody however, the "West" is not of one monolithic voice. Not even close. That's just the same as saying "all Muslim countries are fundy crapholes and the ruination of the world". The UK, the US, Russia and a couple of others most certainly have a huge role to play in this current nonsense(and have taken eff all, or none in, with the exception of the UK). But Denmark, or Sweden, or Holland, or Ireland, or Belgium, or Italy, or Greece, or...? Eh nope. Or maybe I missed the part where Irish fighter bombers were flattening Syrian cities, or shoring up the Saudi royal family. SubSaharan "refugees"? If anything Ireland through those "on the missions" back in the day helped many in those countries, something quite a few folks in that neck of the world have acknowledged.

So why the hell should we "suck it up" for things we quite simply had zero part of? Just because we're western and white? White guilt? That's just as "racist" as suggesting all Black Africans are somehow to blame for the Rwandan massacres and subsequent flood of refugees from the place.

Zero part to play in? Come on Wibbs, the modern western world is all part of the same hypocrisy. International mafia gangsters like the House of Saud have been given a free pass from all of us to do whatever the hell they have wanted to do for the last 80 years. That is a total fact man. They doing it right now in Yemen and nobody gives a $hit. If you allow the prosperous parts of the planet to willfully allow actual worldwide gangster crime on other parts of the planet in a globalised closer connected world, a world we all like to take advantage of, your are going to have to suck up the consequences. You can't be bitching and moaning about the problem when the problem follows you home to the place the problem was orchestrated. The west f**ked up, won't deal with it, won't deal with the gangsters what actually caused it and now the ordinary folk are at each others throats arguing about "multiculturalism" instead of dragging the likes of Bush, Blair, The House of Saud, Cheyney, all these other f**kers what have disappeared, into international criminal courts of law for invading and destroying entire regions of the planet.
Plenty of people, including myself, in the west opposed the illegal invasion of Iraq. But nothing was done, we weren't listened to. The minute that illegal war happened I knew what the outcome would be, I knew what was going to follow, everybody did to a certain extent. But now, the victims, the people left with having to deal with the $hit, both in the west and the people fleeing the absolute Hell are now being engineered to be at each others throats, instead of the gangster trash what caused it.

BBFAN

I give up once the multi-quoters start. Bores the crap out of me, not gonna lie.

Franz Von Peppercorn

buried wrote: »

Zero part to play in? Come on Wibbs, the modern western world is all part of the same hypocrisy. International mafia gangsters like the House of Saud have been given a free pass from all of us to do whatever the hell they have wanted to do for the last 80 years. That is a total fact man. They doing it right now in Yemen and nobody gives a $hit. If you allow the prosperous parts of the planet to willfully allow actual worldwide gangster crime on other parts of the planet in a globalised closer connected world, a world we all like to take advantage of, your are going to have to suck up the consequences. You can't be bitching and moaning about the problem when the problem follows you home to the place the problem was orchestrated. The west f**ked up, won't deal with it, won't deal with the gangsters what actually caused it and now the ordinary folk are at each others throats arguing about "multiculturalism" instead of dragging the likes of Bush, Blair, The House of Saud, Cheyney, all these other f**kers what have disappeared, into international criminal courts of law for invading and destroying entire regions of the planet.
Plenty of people, including myself, in the west opposed the illegal invasion of Iraq. But nothing was done, we weren't listened to. The minute that illegal war happened I knew what the outcome would be, I knew what was going to follow, everybody did to a certain extent. But now, the victims, the people left with having to deal with the $hit, both in the west and the people fleeing the absolute Hell are now being engineered to be at each others throats, instead of the gangster trash what caused it.

The actual country you live in hasn’t gone to war ever as far as I know. The “west” didn’t go to war in Iraq or Syria or Libya. Certain countries did and their leaders are often supporters of immigration.

The small reaction to Yemen and the no reaction to Israel and its recent border campaign (a black guy was fired today for criticism of Israel on CNN) show American liberalism to be the hypocritical ideology we’ve always known it to be.

Remember though that it’s often the “invade the world” types that also support inviting the world. Blair(ism) would be a good example.

CinemaGuy45

Wibbs wrote: »

So... like in every single case I've replied for my (many)sins to one of your posts, you either avoid engaging like the plague, or resort to half arsed insult? I could claim I expect better of you, but that would mark me out a liar.

Here's a thought and for a nice change, how about debating the points? I know, I know...

Sorry, Wibbs I will admit I did not read the thread as the topic did not really grab my attention.

As regards your post I have quoted I wholeheartedly agree with it and the topic might not interest me but I respect people enough to let them discuss what they want without insults and endless inane interruptions to derail the thread.

I feel you pain Wibbs but I don't agree with your flying pig as I do not think it is apt this is more like it.

buried

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The actual country you live in hasn’t gone to war ever as far as I know. The “west” didn’t go to war in Iraq or Syria or Libya. Certain countries did and their leaders are often supporters of immigration.

The small reaction to Yemen and the no reaction to Israel and its recent border campaign (a black guy was fired today for criticism of Israel on CNN) show American liberalism to be the hypocritical ideology we’ve always known it to be.

Remember though that it’s often the “invade the world” types that also support inviting the world. Blair(ism) would be a good example.

Name them so Franz and the part of the planet they and we all reside in and take advantage of

Franz Von Peppercorn

buried wrote: »

Name them so Franz and the part of the planet they and we all reside in and take advantage of

Not Ireland where you actually live. Not most of the EU either. There being 27 countries in the EU.

The Iraq war was even opposed by France.

However France was heavily involved in Libya. As was the US. The burden of immigration was borne by Italy. Germany wasn’t in Syria. Russia was. The US was. Germany got most of the immigration.

I’d love if I could do something about Yemen but I can’t. I’m not an American.

buried

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Not Ireland where you actually live. Not most of the EU either. There being 27 countries in the EU.

The Iraq war was even opposed by France.

However France was heavily involved in Libya. As was the US. The burden of immigration was borne by Italy. Germany wasn’t in Syria. Russia was. The US was. Germany got most of the immigration.

I’d love if I could do something about Yemen but I can’t. I’m not an American.

Wouldn't matter if you were American Franz, Saudi Arabia, the vile fascist headhunting $hithole, calls the shots for the Americans, and the Americans calls the shots for the rest of the West, including the likes of us, Shannon Airoporto Inc and all that

Wibbs

buried wrote: »

Zero part to play in? Come on Wibbs, the modern western world is all part of the same hypocrisy. International mafia gangsters like the House of Saud have been given a free pass from all of us to do whatever the hell they have wanted to do for the last 80 years. That is a total fact man.

And again was Ireland behind that? Was Holland? Greece? Over the last 80 years Ireland was mostly fecked with scattered showers of not so fecked. Even so, our international engagement was pushing for things like the League of Nations and the UN. And a time that was solid in the memory a generation ago, but largely forgotten now was the aforementioned thousands of Irish men and women who "Went on the Missions" to all sorts of developing countries.

They doing it right now in Yemen and nobody gives a $hit. If you allow the prosperous parts of the planet to willfully allow actual worldwide gangster crime on other parts of the planet in a globalised closer connected world, a world we all like to take advantage of, your are going to have to suck up the consequences. You can't be bitching and moaning about the problem when the problem follows you home to the place the problem was orchestrated. The west f**ked up, won't deal with it, won't deal with the gangsters what actually caused it and now the ordinary folk are at each others throats arguing about "multiculturalism" instead of dragging the likes of Bush, Blair, The House of Saud, Cheyney, all these other f**kers what have disappeared, into international criminal courts of law for invading and destroying entire regions of the planet.

And again B you're apportioning blame and responsibility on some Western power brokers and extending it to all Western nations, well Europe anyway. Ireland is not The West™ that you speak of. And we're not the only ones. So again I pose my earlier question: Why are we in Ireland, or Italy, or Holland, etc to be somehow guilty of being Western and responsible for other nations by association and hold the duty to pick up their mess?

buried

Wibbs wrote: »

Why are we in Ireland, or Italy, or Holland, etc to be somehow guilty of being Western and responsible for other nations by association and hold the duty to pick up their mess?

We'e all part of the same despicable hypocrisy Wibbs, all western nations are, you know this man, are you honestly trying to say we aren't? Come on man. Its just I've learned to live with it and I won't be blaming other ordinary people for it who had literally nothing to do with it.

Franz Von Peppercorn

buried wrote: »

We'e all part of the same despicable hypocrisy Wibbs, all western nations are, you know this man, are you honestly trying to say we aren't? Come on man. Its just I've learned to live with it and I won't be blaming other ordinary people for it who had literally nothing to do with it.

No we’re not. What can an Irishman or a Belgian do about American imperialism?

And yanks are in fact responsible for their government. There’s no anti war movement to speak about. Lots of street violence, lots of anti fa posturing, lots of late night TV criticising trump but nothing much on war. In fact it’s generally liberal America who supported Syria.

buried

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No we’re not. What can an Irishman or a Belgian do about American imperialism?

And yanks are in fact responsible for their government. There’s no anti war movement to speak about. Lots of street violence, lots of anti fa posturing, lots of late night TV criticising trump but nothing much on war. In fact it’s generally liberal America who supported Syria.

Did you buy petrol today? Did you buy it in the last week? Where do you think that craic comes from? You are part of it, so am I, so suck it up

Gravelly

buried wrote: »

Did you buy petrol today? Did you buy it in the last week? Where do you think that craic comes from? You are part of it, so am I, so suck it up

Sweet lord, do people still type this rubbish on forums?

Everyone who drives a car is responsible for the ills of the world now :rolleyes:

buried

Gravelly wrote: »

Sweet lord, do people still type this rubbish on forums?

Everyone who drives a car is responsible for the ills of the world now :rolleyes:

That's the harshness of the reality the vast majority have to contend with in order for us to live our comfortable lifestyles G

Gravelly

buried wrote: »

That's the harshness of the reality the vast majority have to contend with in order for us to live our comfortable lifestyles G

Shure by that reasoning we should just wipe ourselves off the earth - aren't we destroying it by the very act of living on it.

The buck has to stop somewhere, and it can only reasonably stop with those who directly profit from wrongdoing.
Trying to blame Mrs. Murphy down the road for Islamic extremists killing children in Sweden because she drove the kids to school yesterday is ludicrous.

buried

Gravelly wrote: »

Shure by that reasoning we should just wipe ourselves off the earth - aren't we destroying it by the very act of living on it.

The buck has to stop somewhere, and it can only reasonably stop with those who directly profit from wrongdoing.
Trying to blame Mrs. Murphy down the road for Islamic extremists killing children in Sweden because she drove the kids to school yesterday is ludicrous.

Your right, it is ludicrous, but that's what is happening, its been happening for the last 80 years. Look into it.

Gimme A Pound

Well we certainly don't share the same amount of blame as others in the whole charade. This collective responsibility stuff - fine if people believe it (personally I don't - I think the blame lies with a very powerful minority and because of them people have no choice but to do things that support them, as their hands are tied) but no way is all the blame equally distributed.

Franz Von Peppercorn

buried wrote: »

Did you buy petrol today? Did you buy it in the last week? Where do you think that craic comes from? You are part of it, so am I, so suck it up

No. I’ve never bought petrol in fact for a decade. Feel free to give up your car.

This is sheer nonsense by the way. A country has a cartel on oil production and the responsibility for all of their actions lies with the consumers of the oil. Not the country itself. Not the authoritarian king who runs it. Not the other country supporting them. The average joe soap (but I reiterate not me) who commutes to work in a totally different country.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Not that it’s only the west who use oil. Pretty much the whole world with the exception of that tribe in India benefit from the use of oil by driving, or been driven, or from energy or products where oil was used in production. Some of which is Saudi. Much of which is OPEC.

By the logic of buried, the Chinese factory worker, the senegalese farner, the Buddhist monk in Nepal, the Mexico City taxi driver are all responsible for Yemen as the theocratic kingdom itself and the US warlords who support it.

This blaming everybody is blaming nobody.

buried

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No. I’ve never bought petrol in fact for a decade. Feel free to give up your car.

This is sheer nonsense by the way. A country has a cartel on oil production and the responsibility for all of their actions lies with the consumers of the oil. Not the country itself. Not the authoritarian king who runs it. Not the other country supporting them. The average joe soap (but I reiterate not me) who commutes to work in a totally different country.

lol Give up my car yeah? How about everybody on this island and in this part of the world "gives up our cars", would you like that sort of scene F? Like it or not man, Your living in a society that only runs because off its comfortable reliance and from its alliance on a gang of headhunting gangster criminals, a gang of trash who have the most weaponised nation - The USA - under its thumb and its been under it since the end of WW2 when the yanks told them they could do whatever they want as long as the west could get the oil. And that trash have been doing it. And they still are, destabilising the world, and namely the west, because they know we are addicted, and we are. You haven't bought petrol yourself fair enough, you buy any plastic? Rubber? What you commuting to work on? A hoverboard?

Franz Von Peppercorn

buried wrote: »

lol Give up my car yeah? How about everybody on this island and in this part of the world "gives up our cars", would you like that sort of scene F? Like it or not man, Your living in a society that only runs because off its comfortable reliance and from its alliance on a gang of headhunting gangster criminals, a gang of trash who have the most weaponised nation - The USA - under its thumb and its been under it since the end of WW2 when the yanks told them they could do whatever they want as long as the west could get the oil. And that trash have been doing it. And they still are, destabilising the world, and namely the west, because they know we are addicted, and we are. You haven't bought petrol yourself fair enough, you buy any plastic? Rubber? What you commuting to work on?

A bike.

Well by your logic me not in fact having a car makes me less responsible than you. I think you want to blame everybody. And nobody.


As I said above you are blaming the whole world and every single citizen in it for the fact that the Saudis control lots of oil production. That’s in fact something that makes the Saudis more powerful, and the countries that depend on them powerless.

However the US isn’t powerless and to get back to the discussion, engages in war but doesn’t take refugees in the same manner as Germany.

Gimme A Pound

buried wrote: »

lol Give up my car yeah? How about everybody on this island and in this part of the world "gives up our cars", would you like that sort of scene F? Like it or not man, Your living in a society that only runs because off its comfortable reliance and from its alliance on a gang of headhunting gangster criminals, a gang of trash who have the most weaponised nation - The USA - under its thumb and its been under it since the end of WW2 when the yanks told them they could do whatever they want as long as the west could get the oil. And that trash have been doing it. And they still are, destabilising the world, and namely the west, because they know we are addicted, and we are. You haven't bought petrol yourself fair enough, you buy any plastic? Rubber? What you commuting to work on? A hoverboard?

You're acknowledging though that people don't have a choice. That's not really the same as being to blame.

buried

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

A bike.

Well by your logic me not in fact having a car makes me less responsible than you. I think you want to blame everybody. And nobody.


As I said above you are blaming the whole world and every single citizen in it for the fact that the Saudis control lots of oil production. That’s in fact something that makes the Saudis and most powerful the countries that depend on them powerless.

However the US isn’t powerless and to get back to the discussion, engages in war but doesn’t take refugees in the same manner as Germany.

Bikes runs on rubber tyres man, so y'know, your still in it with me and the rest.

And yeah I am blaming the worlds problems on the Wests reliance on the Saudi's and their oily drugs, but at least this F - I'm not going to blame our problems on some poor Syrian refugee trying to come over here and try to live some sort of semblance of decent life with their families after our part of the world has willfully allowed the likes of the trash of Arabia to destroy theirs. Suck it up man, suck up the reliance, suck up the consequences and suck up the problems what go with it.

buried

Lawson Panicky Varnish wrote: »

You're acknowledging though that people don't have a choice. That's not really the same as being to blame.

Don't be cribbing, bitching and moaning about refugees either though too, that's what I'm saying.

Franz Von Peppercorn

buried wrote: »

Bikes runs on rubber tyres man, so y'know, your still in it with me and the rest.

Far less than you. If you are going to blame the actions of the Saudis on the consumers of oil then it’s the voluntary consumers of petrol (who could use public transport) who are clearly more responsible. You. Not me.

And yeah I am blaming the worlds problems on the Wests reliance on the Saudi's and their oily drugs, but at least this F - I'm not going to blame our problems on some poor Syrian refugee trying to come over here and try to live some sort of semblance of decent life with their families after our part of the world has willfully allowed the likes of the trash of Arabia to destroy theirs. Suck it up man, suck up the reliance, suck up the consequences and suck up the problems what go with it.

As I said above the whole world could be blamed for the wars the Saudis are involved with by your logic. Not that Syria is Yemen either.

(And our part of the world again. You literally have no idea how powerless ireland is.)

As for Syrian refugees I believe we have a moral obligation to take in some, but not because of some kind of war guilt