Generation Identity

Stephen15

batgoat wrote: »

I don't actually favour banning books including Mein Kampf, it's an important historical text and illustrates the warped viewpoints and rationales that brought about Nazi German. Your viewpoint on banning a religion is a warped viewpoint. You can claim that Islam is the antithesis of western values but it's radically opposed to western values to ban a religion. I'll say it again, it's fascistic.

I never said I favouring banning books. I just believe it is a shocking case of double standards to ban Mein Kampf but not ban the Qur'an I don't believe either books should be banned. I don't believe Islam should be banned but I do think it poses a threat to our society and measures should be taken to prevent Islam gaining a foothold in Ireland. That includes immigration restrictions on non EU countries both predominantly Islamic and non predominantly Islamic and the deportation of those espousing who pose a threat to our society and values. I don't think those believes are fascist

The above text was adopted in 1948 in the wake of WW2 because of the breach of human rights that had occurred. You two actively oppose it. AfD also actively oppose it. You can claim what you support is justified or civilised, just in the same way the Nazis did. Oh by the by, Geert is also a bit of a fascist so you probably need some better people to look up to cause you seem to think the pondscum fascists are the way forward. Thankfully, you're a part of a minority view in this country. It's also a minority view in Germany and most western countries.

For a start Islam is not a religion it is an ideology and a way of life. That is something agreed by both myself but also many Muslims. I believe this ideology poses a threat to to our country and our society. Islam does not give people freedom to leave under Sharia law and an increasing number of Muslims would rather follow sharia law to domestic law.

gw80

batgoat wrote: »

So outlaw a religion? You subscribe to restricting religious beliefs. You could hear this exact type of line " It has economic, legal, dietary, political and other elements to it." on Judaism during the 1930s. That's a fact.



I don't actually favour banning books including Mein Kampf, it's an important historical text and illustrates the warped viewpoints and rationales that brought about Nazi German. Your viewpoint on banning a religion is a warped viewpoint. You can claim that Islam is the antithesis of western values but it's radically opposed to western values to ban a religion. I'll say it again, it's fascistic.



The above text was adopted in 1948 in the wake of WW2 because of the breach of human rights that had occurred. You two actively oppose it. AfD also actively oppose it. You can claim what you support is justified or civilised, just in the same way the Nazis did. Oh by the by, Geert is also a bit of a fascist so you probably need some better people to look up to cause you seem to think the pondscum fascists are the way forward. Thankfully, you're a part of a minority view in this country. It's also a minority view in Germany and most western countries.

Christ almighty, you have some hard on for nazis,
Is it the uniforms?
I think you may have watched too many Hollywood propaganda movies.

batgoat

Stephen15 wrote: »

I never said I favouring banning books. I just believe it is a shocking case of double standards to ban Mein Kampf but not ban the Qur'an I don't believe either books should be banned. I don't believe Islam should be banned but I do think it poses a threat to our society and measures should be taken to prevent Islam gaining a foothold in Ireland. That includes immigration restrictions on non EU countries both predominantly Islamic and non predominantly Islamic and the deportation of those espousing who pose a threat to our society and values. I don't think those believes are fascist



For a start Islam is not a religion it is an ideology and a way of life. That is something agreed by both myself but also many Muslims. I believe this ideology poses a threat to to our country and our society. Islam does not give people freedom to leave under Sharia law and an increasing number of Muslims would rather follow sharia law to domestic law.

You said you favour banning Mosques, a place of worship for Muslims... Ergo you favour attacking religious freedoms... So stop pretending that I'm misrepresenting you or the AfD... I would say banning a place of worship is a threat to our society and values. So let's just hope neither you or the AfD reach a point where you are influential cause you favour attacking basic freedoms.

gw80 wrote: »

Christ almighty, you have some hard on for nazis,
Is it the uniforms?
I think you may have watched too many Hollywood propaganda movies.

I think it's pretty fair to be a bit horrified when a person proposes banning a place of worship.

kunst nugget

How long do people think it will take for this Muslim takeover of Europe that these nutters are worried about to happen?

skooterblue2

kunst nugget wrote: »

How long do people think it will take for this Muslim takeover of Europe that these nutters are worried about to happen?

With current birth rates on either side and the state of affairs, I am guess less than 50 years unless it happens sooner with a war. Something like Lebanon. One child families in the west struggling with survival and having to support immigrant families with 4-7 children. Then there are overseas commitments.... 580 Million, not a penny returned. I have never seen an African or Asian homeless in Ireland just single white men and families.

Stephen15

batgoat wrote: »

You said you favour banning Mosques, a place of worship for Muslims... Ergo you favour attacking religious freedoms... So stop pretending that I'm misrepresenting you or the AfD... I would say banning a place of worship is a threat to our society and values. So let's just hope neither you or the AfD reach a point where you are influential cause you favour attacking basic freedoms.

When did I say that. I never said that mosques should be banned. I don't think there should a need for any new mosques as I don't think there should be anymore Islamic migrants into Europe as we should be shutting our borders to migrants both from Islamic and non-Islamic countries. I do also believe we should favour migration from countries with similar beliefs and values to our own ie Western, free and democratic nations.

I think it's pretty fair to be a bit horrified when a person proposes banning a place of worship.

I don't your getting the fact that Islam is more than religion it's a ideology similar to communism or fascism.

batgoat

Stephen15 wrote: »

When did I say that. I never said that mosques should be banned. I don't think there should a need for any new mosques as I don't think there should be anymore Islamic migrants into Europe as we should be shutting our borders to migrants both from Islamic and non-Islamic countries. I do also believe we should favour migration from countries with similar beliefs and values to our own ie Western, free and democratic nations.



I don't your getting the fact that Islam is more than religion it's a ideology similar to communism or fascism.

This was what you wrote in response to me pointing out the AfD favour banning of Mosques.... You clearly viewed it as acceptable party policy from the AfD.

Stephen15 wrote: »

So the Germans outlaw fascism but another form of fascism called Islam is allowed thrive

Also worth remembering that Breivik shared your strongly anti Muslim views. You can say you're anti Islam but blanket labeling a group of people. It's pretty warped.

Stephen15

batgoat wrote: »

This was what you wrote in response to me pointing out the AfD favour banning of Mosques.... You clearly viewed it as acceptable party policy from the AfD.

I was referring to the double standards of outlawing fascism but not outlawing Islam both are similar ideologies. I don't agree with outlawing either. I believe in freedom of speech if want to hold fascist beliefs they should be allowed as long as they aren't harming or are deemed a risk to anyone absolutely they should be debated aswell. Stop putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

Also worth remembering that Breivik shared your strongly anti Muslim views. You can say you're anti Islam but blanket labeling a group of people. It's pretty warped.

Oh so now your comparing me to a mad man for holding views you don't agree with, seriously do have a better argument? I'm not labelling a group of people. Muslims are people but Islam is an ideology. In many cases Muslims are the biggest victims of the ideology of Islam.

kunst nugget

skooterblue2 wrote: »

With current birth rates on either side and the state of affairs, I am guess less than 50 years unless it happens sooner with a war.

You seriously believe that? Wow...

skooterblue2

kunst nugget wrote: »

You seriously believe that? Wow...

You have some basic maths skills? Look how two child families project into the future compared to four child families. It looks more like binary fission.

1930's Lebanon was the "Paris of the East" a multinational utopia, 1950's they were taking in Palestinian refugees. 1970's civil unrest, 1980's civil war. Its only a matter of time before Syria spills over into Lebanon. You have falling fertility rates in Europe. People are marrying later and having families. Children are living at home well into their 30's.

Meanwhile off the boat, there is a new house for you in Dublin, new Irish have larger rent allowances to rent properties. They cannot celebrate St. Georges Day in the UK without having "racist" being inferred. In Brooklyn they demand schools close for Eid despite no penalty for absence as a compromise.

end of the road

Stephen15 wrote: »

Islam is more than just a religion it's an ideology similar to fascism and communism. Many democratic countries outlaw the ideology of fascism for example but don't outlaw similar ideologies such as Communism and Islam even though they have similar ideals to fascism.

Geert Wilders made an excellent point a few years ago when the Dutch Parliament outlawed 'Mein Kampf' that if 'Mein Kampf' is to be banned than so should the Qur'an to follow up on the policy of banning extreme books.

over-exaggerated guff tbh. yes all religions, at least from my limited understanding of them, will have certain requirements to abide by, however they are still just religions.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Islam poses a threat to western society as Allah promises that one day the entire world will be under Islamic rule meaning that freedom of speech and democracy will be outlawed and women's rights will be violated as there will be Sharia Law which is absolutely not compatible with western values.

tbh this is hysterical guff.
we have plenty of muslims living in the west who are of no threat. those muslims who are a threat are a tiny amount over all and those who have unfortunately acted on their threat, even smaller again.
the west have a majority indigenous population and a minority muslim population. the majority are in no way going to vote for anyone proposing sharia law. in short nope, not going to happen.

Stephen15

end of the road wrote: »

tbh this is hysterical guff.
we have plenty of muslims living in the west who are of no threat. those muslims who are a threat are a tiny amount over all and those who have unfortunately acted on their threat, even smaller again.
the west have a majority indigenous population and a minority muslim population. the majority are in no way going to vote for anyone proposing sharia law. in short nope, not going to happen.

As I have already said I don't have a problem with Muslim people I have a problem with the ideology of Islam which believes people who commit adultery should be stoned, believes gays be thrown from buildings, segrates men and women, cuts people's hands off for stealing, treats non Muslims as second class citizens and believes that people who leave Islam should be exacuted. That's what I disagree with.

I have met plenty of Muslims who are absolutely perfectly fine and have no problem with them but that dosen't mean I agree with their religious beliefs. In fact most of the victims of Islam are actually Muslims.

skooterblue2

end of the road wrote: »

we have plenty of muslims living in the west who are of no threat. those muslims who are a threat are a tiny amount over all and those who have unfortunately acted on their threat, even smaller again.
the west have a majority indigenous population and a minority muslim population. the majority are in no way going to vote for anyone proposing sharia law. in short nope, not going to happen.

The Gardai have estimated that there are 140 Irish Jihadis over in Syria. We had arrests about two years back in Waterford about 2 guys raising funds for bombings. Then you had an American Jihad Jane in Waterford too. You also had two Irish jihadis detained by American forces in Syria. You had Ibrahim Halawa in Egypt trying to over turn the government. You have Sarah Radwan taken outside the mosque in Clonskeagh and given a hiding for talking about gay rights. "Dr" Ali Selim talking about the benefits of FGM...... but you arent interested in any of this?

end of the road

Stephen15 wrote: »

As I have already said I don't have a problem with Muslim people I have a problem with the ideology of Islam which believes people who commit adultery should be stoned, believes gays be thrown from buildings, segrates men and women, cuts people's hands off for stealing, treats non Muslims as second class citizens and believes that people who leave Islam should be exacuted. That's what I disagree with.

I have met plenty of Muslims who are absolutely perfectly fine and have no problem with them but that dosen't mean I agree with their religious beliefs. In fact most of the victims of Islam are actually Muslims.

thankfully acting on any of those beliefs are against the law here in the west. as it should be

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The Gardai have estimated that there are 140 Irish Jihadis over in Syria. We had arrests about two years back in Waterford about 2 guys raising funds for bombings. Then you had an American Jihad Jane in Waterford too. You also had two Irish jihadis detained by American forces in Syria. You had Ibrahim Halawa in Egypt trying to over turn the government. You have Sarah Radwan taken outside the mosque in Clonskeagh and given a hiding for talking about gay rights. "Dr" Ali Selim talking about the benefits of FGM...... but you arent interested in any of this?

i actually am interested. the irish gihadis should be arrested and locked up on their return. those who attacked Sarah Radwan should be arrested and locked up as well if they haven't been already. Ali Selim is a nut who should be ridiculed and challenged every time he opens his mouth.

skooterblue2

end of the road wrote: »

the irish gihadis should be arrested and locked up on their return. those who attacked Sarah Radwan should be arrested and locked up as well if they haven't been already. Ali Selim is a nut who should be ridiculed and challenged every time he opens his mouth.

Why should Jihadis be locked up, paid social welfare and kept at the Irish taxpayers expense? Everyone knows second generation islamist are extremely unhappy once they work out they wont fit in. Denaturalise them and their families and return them from whence they came. It can be done but it is done in closed Cabinet, from what I am told. The person who authorised the disciplinary action is an advisor to the government, that is not going to happen.

batgoat

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Why should Jihadis be locked up, paid social welfare and kept at the Irish taxpayers expense? Everyone knows second generation islamist are extremely unhappy once they work out they wont fit in. Denaturalise them and their families and return them from whence they came. It can be done but it is done in closed Cabinet, from what I am told. The person who authorised the disciplinary action is an advisor to the government, that is not going to happen.

There you go with loads of generalisations again... Also you're proposing denaturalising Irish citizens? Dear Jesus...

professore

Stephen15 wrote: »

As I have already said I don't have a problem with Muslim people I have a problem with the ideology of Islam which believes people who commit adultery should be stoned, believes gays be thrown from buildings, segrates men and women, cuts people's hands off for stealing, treats non Muslims as second class citizens and believes that people who leave Islam should be exacuted. That's what I disagree with.

Read the old testament. Similar stuff in there.

Gravelly

professore wrote: »

Read the old testament. Similar stuff in there.

Anybody you know stoning women and throwing gay people off roofs based on their belief in the Old Testament?

end of the road

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Why should Jihadis be locked up, paid social welfare and kept at the Irish taxpayers expense?

because they are a threat to the state and society, and we are the best chance of them actually being kept from being a threat.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Everyone knows second generation islamist are extremely unhappy once they work out they wont fit in.

i don't care, tbh. as long as they are in jail that's all that matters to me.

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Denaturalise them and their families and return them from whence they came. It can be done but it is done in closed Cabinet, from what I am told. The person who authorised the disciplinary action is an advisor to the government, that is not going to happen.

the reason it's not going to happen is collective punishment is quite possibly against international law, so thankfully that prevents the families being targeted and punished for nothing. the gihadis on the other hand can be punished by being locked up in their home country, which technically is ireland, as chances are they may be second generation.

Gravelly wrote: »

Anybody you know stoning women and throwing gay people off roofs based on their belief in the Old Testament?

they don't need to be doing it for his point to be relevant and accurate.

Gravelly

"end wrote:

they don't need to be doing it for his point to be relevant and accurate.

Of course they do, otherwise you are claiming that actually stoning women and throwing gay people off roofs is the same thing as reading about it.
I know you are desperate to defend islam, but surely you can’t believe that?

VeryTerry

Gravelly wrote: »

Anybody you know stoning women and throwing gay people off roofs based on their belief in the Old Testament?

Gay people have it pretty tough in Uganda, South Sudan and various other countries largely due to Western Christian missionaries.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/how-uganda-was-seduced-by-anti-gay-conservative-evangelicals-9193593.html

https://www.thenation.com/article/its-not-just-uganda-behind-christian-rights-onslaught-africa/

Doctor Jimbob

Gravelly wrote: »

Of course they do, otherwise you are claiming that actually stoning women and throwing gay people off roofs is the same thing as reading about it.
I know you are desperate to defend islam, but surely you can’t believe that?

The fact that both religions have text supporting such practices suggests that it's a societal issue rather than a religious one. If Christianity managed to move on from doing these things, it's illogical to suggest Islam is incapable of doing the same.

Grayson

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Why should Jihadis be locked up, paid social welfare and kept at the Irish taxpayers expense? Everyone knows second generation islamist are extremely unhappy once they work out they wont fit in. Denaturalise them and their families and return them from whence they came. It can be done but it is done in closed Cabinet, from what I am told. The person who authorised the disciplinary action is an advisor to the government, that is not going to happen.

Collective punishment?

What makes our country better than somewhere like saudi is that we have rights. All citizens do. Removing rights from someone is something we should never consider. If someones committed a crime, even terrorism, try them and if they're guilty, lock them up. We have due process for a reason.

Gravelly

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

The fact that both religions have text supporting such practices suggests that it's a societal issue rather than a religious one. If Christianity managed to move on from doing these things, it's illogical to suggest Islam is incapable of doing the same.

Yet the evidence before our eyes is that Islam hasn’t, and in fact would appear to be getting more radical.

Wibbs

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

The fact that both religions have text supporting such practices suggests that it's a societal issue rather than a religious one. If Christianity managed to move on from doing these things, it's illogical to suggest Islam is incapable of doing the same.

A common belief and understandable considering most seem to think of Islam as "ah sure it's kinda like christianity". However the two religions are quite different in a few fundamental ways.

For example: Christianity established a Church/State duality and division very early on. It wasn't always in play of course, but it was there philosophically and theologically. This meant there was an opening for a broadening of the split between church and state. In Islam the religion is the state.

Islam is also more concerned with and drives day to day living, even down to bathing practice. Christianity was much more hands off in this regard. Even simple things like foods were a free for all in Christianity. Beyond fish on Fridays type stuff, you can eat anything and still be a full on Jesus freak.

Islam coming along centuries after Christianity also has more self protection mechanisms going on and with far less wriggle room with interpretation. Consider that from very early in Christianity's history picking apart of the texts was in play and by the Enlightenment objective critique of the texts took off. Even to the point of questioning the existence of Jesus the man(even though there is more evidence such as it is than for the existence of a single Mohammed). That never happened in Islam. The primary text the Quran is considered the original, perfect, direct word of God. The Gospels are considered influenced by God but written by men. That's a huge theological difference. So even devout Christian scholars can debate the origins of Christian texts, even their evolution over time, but that is quite simply unthinkable to devout Muslim scholars. Indeed a few years back in Egypt one scholar asked if some parts of the Quran had evolved over time and for his trouble he was thrown out of a fourth floor window of the university.

For these reasons and a few others Islam never had a Reformation, nor an Enlightenment and it would be extremely difficult to have either within the confines of the faith.

Grayson

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

The fact that both religions have text supporting such practices suggests that it's a societal issue rather than a religious one. If Christianity managed to move on from doing these things, it's illogical to suggest Islam is incapable of doing the same.

There's plenty of christian places where it hasn't moved on. Even in some civilised countries. And there's plenty of people who value rights, even in "uncivilised" countries.

That's the biggest problem with bigotry/racism/etc. It's collectively tarring all people with the same brush. It forgets that all of these people are individuals.

Imagine if someone wanted to bar you from a country, or reduce the rights you have, because of something someone you've never met, in a different country, did/said something and the only thing you have in common with them is that you are both part of a religion that has a billion adherents and a ridiculous amount of variety.

Yet there are people here who think it's fair.

end of the road

Gravelly wrote: »

Of course they do, otherwise you are claiming that actually stoning women and throwing gay people off roofs is the same thing as reading about it.
I know you are desperate to defend islam, but surely you can’t believe that?

i'm not "desperate to defend islam"
i don't have any time for any religion realy, however i'm not going to use religious texts as a justification to claim that people who subscribe to a religion are automatically whatever i decide they are.

Gravelly

end of the road wrote: »

i'm not "desperate to defend islam"
i don't have any time for any religion realy, however i'm not going to use religious texts as a justification to claim that people who subscribe to a religion are automatically whatever i decide they are.

That’s dishonest though. I’m not “using religious texts as a justification” either - the fact is that women and gay people have little or no rights in most Islamic countries. You claimed that this was also the case with the Old Testament and I pointed out that one was a reality that is actually happening, while the other is simply something written down. Apples and oranges.

end of the road

Gravelly wrote: »

That’s dishonest though. I’m not “using religious texts as a justification” either - the fact is that women and gay people have little or no rights in most Islamic countries. You claimed that this was also the case with the Old Testament and I pointed out that one was a reality that is actually happening, while the other is simply something written down. Apples and oranges.

both are a reality that is actually happening, unfortunately.

Odhinn

skooterblue2 wrote: »

You have some basic maths skills? Look how two child families project into the future compared to four child families. It looks more like binary fission.

...............

Immigrant families grow smaller the longer they've been resident in western states. You might consider that fact before dispensing your 'wisdom'.