Pittsburgh synagogue shooting

Widdershins

Human Sausage wrote: »

#202 is your own post. :pac:

And it's obvious you're trolling, albeit in a very ham-fisted and obvious manner. Why else lie about what someone said in such an egregious way and then not even apologise when it's been pointed out?

The whole thread you've been desperately baiting people into admitting to saying things they haven't. Then, when that didn't work, you just outright lied about what I said.

Excuse me. I am aware that is my own post. I was asked why I had supposedly not given an example of what I felt was possibly an agenda driven comment, because I was repeatedly accused of having an agenda for expressing an opinion, once. You're not half as clever as you think you are, petal.

I can only guess you strongly feel you are a Leftist and are having an apoplexy because I said there's an antisemitic menace among the Left. Why do you feel so strongly that you and your lackeys have pestered me with daft comments ad nauseum?

The only comments I directly replied to were comments quoting me so no I have not been trying to make anyone say anything.

You and your ilk are hostile in the extreme and then demand people justify their opinion, after hectoring them for it in the first place. I don't know about other people but I don't log into Board to be mind-f*cked.

Widdershins

Reality check.
It's not about Trump.
Quote of the day.

"Last week, a Pakistani Muslim man beat an elderly Jewish man in the middle of a traffic-filled Brooklyn street in broad daylight. The attacker shouted “Allah” and something about Israel. (No one helped the man except another Jewish man).

The next day in Crown Heights, a Black young man chased a Jewish man with a stick — this on the heels of “punch a Jew” which has featured Black youth knocking out Jews in New York.

Yesterday, a White nationalist murdered 11 Jews in a Pittsburgh synagogue right before yelling, “all Jews must die.”

(Hamas in Gaza is launching missiles at Israeli civilians while you read this post).

Again, that’s just the past week.

For those who want to blame your ‘favorite’ person/group for the rise of anti-Semitism — the oldest hatred on the planet — you’re wasting your time."

Pastor Dumisani Temsgen Washington
Stockton, California

Human Sausage

Widdershins wrote: »

Excuse me. I am aware that is my own post. I was asked why I had supposedly not given an example of what I felt was possibly an agenda driven comment, because I was repeatedly accused of having an agenda for expressing an opinion, once. You're not half as clever as you think you are, petal.

I can only guess you strongly feel you are a Leftist and are having an apoplexy because I said there's an antisemitic menace among the Left. Why do you feel so strongly that you and your lackeys have pestered me with daft comments ad nauseum?

The only comments I directly replied to were comments quoting me so no I have not been trying to make anyone say anything.

You and your ilk are hostile in the extreme and then demand people justify their opinion, after hectoring them for it in the first place. I don't know about other people but I don't log into Board to be mind-f*cked.

nullzero

Anthracite wrote: »

Agreed. Headbangers.

Could you clarify that you agree that Palestinians deserve to be treated as human beings or were you in agreement with the idea that Jewish conspiracies are nonsense?

nullzero

Widdershins wrote: »

Have you not read this thread?
Comments like, Israel treats Palestinians like vermin, could be seen as agenda driven on a thread about dead American Jews. But they are accepted while a comment saying there is serious antisemitism also on the left, receives numerous replies about using the dead Jews for an agenda.

Not sure what your problem is but you're repeating the same nonsense at me so I have to ignore you.

The issue of Trumps affiliation to Israel was raised as Trump was being a cussed of being an anti Semite.
It is an unfortunate truth for those trying to blame Trump for an anti semitic terrorist attack.
Trump is a cretin in my opinion, he is an unpleasant individual and loves nothing more that stirring as much sh1t as he can but in relation to Trump being anti semitic, this is demonstrably not the case, to the contrary he is an avowed Zionist.

My issue is that people jump to conclusions based on nothing more than their own confirmation bias, someone says Trump hates Jews and because he's an unpleasant character then of course he hates Jews, it makes sense, until you think about it critically and you realise his daughter converted to Judaism and is married to hawkish Zionist.
All the talk of dog whistles in relation to this are completely irrelevant as Trumps actions have been pro Israel and in no way damaging to Jews.

The posting style of individuals supporting this motion has been anywhere from openly hostile and condescending to passive aggressive and belittling.

Anyone disagreeing is being told they "don't understand the discussion" and spoken down to.
What I can see is a number of posters here can't comprehend some extremely basic information that instantly deconstructs the notion of Trump stirring up anti semitic sentiment in America and ploughing ahead bull headedly in an attempt to brow beat and condescend to anyone with a contrary opinion to their own.

Odhinn

Widdershins wrote: »

Excuse me. I am aware that is my own post. I was asked why I had supposedly not given an example of what I felt was possibly an agenda driven comment, because I was repeatedly accused of having an agenda for expressing an opinion, once. You're not half as clever as you think you are, petal.

I can only guess you strongly feel you are a Leftist and are having an apoplexy because I said there's an antisemitic menace among the Left. Why do you feel so strongly that you and your lackeys have pestered me with daft comments ad nauseum?

The only comments I directly replied to were comments quoting me so no I have not been trying to make anyone say anything.

You and your ilk are hostile in the extreme and then demand people justify their opinion, after hectoring them for it in the first place. I don't know about other people but I don't log into Board to be mind-f*cked.

Yep, no thread hijack here at all.

Widdershins

Odhinn wrote: »

Yep, no thread hijack here at all.

If anyone's hijacking the thread it's you as you were the first to quote my first comment to make a ridiculous snide and offensive remark about an agenda & using the victims.

You and other posters have got progressively weirder.

I don't care what's in any of your heads and it didn't even occur to me there might be anything odd going on in there until one of you started chuntering about me trying to trip you up/make you say something.

Is this how you all always behave when you sense any challenge to the political left?

Odhinn

Widdershins wrote: »

If anyone's hijacking the thread it's you as you were the first to quote my first comment to make a ridiculous snide and offensive remark about an agenda & using the victims.

......................

Let's take a look at that again -

I find it weird that the far right are consistently implicated in these discussions while the antisemitic menace of the far left are let off the hook. I've heard the killer was anti-Trump and possibly a far leftist himself.

Yep, shoehorning your agenda on a thread about the massacre of 11 people.

Human Sausage

Widdershins wrote: »

If anyone's hijacking the thread it's you as you were the first to quote my first comment to make a ridiculous snide and offensive remark about an agenda & using the victims.

You and other posters have got progressively weirder.

I don't care what's in any of your heads and it didn't even occur to me there might be anything odd going on in there until one of you started chuntering about me trying to trip you up/make you say something.

Is this how you all always behave when you sense any challenge to the political left?

Grayson

To be fair, anti semitism is a weird bigotry. The far right, people who hate Muslims, also hate jews. The far left even have people who hate jews. And extremist muslims don't like jews for completely different reasons. Yet for some reason the three groups intersect in their hatred of jews.

Trying to point to a muslim attack on a jew to try and say that Trump had nothing to do with a different attack is wrong. It just doesn't make sense.

I do think Trump may be partially responsible. Not I'm saying "may be" and "partially". The reason is that we don't know the whole story. When you see someone like this, there's always a number of contributing factors. Some affect more than others. Trump was probably in the mix, it's probably a small amount, but we can't say how much.

He's definitely a greater motivational factor in the bomber guy.

Human Sausage

To be sure, antisemitism isn't something confined to just one 'side' of politics. It's a bigotry that's been deeply rooted for hundreds of years in various European cultures. A lot of Jewish communities can be quite insular and, as we've seen time and again, people are quick to make up wild stories about those that keep to themselves but don't harm anyone.

On the far right you have mostly white supremacists, white nationalists, neo-Nazis, etc. who just carry on that old hatred; the idea that Jews secretly control governments or control the financial industry. Ignoring, of course, that Jews have done well in finance for, among other reasons, the historical restrictions on trades they could practice in Europe (most notably, permitted to engage in usury), and a strong history of good record keeping in their religious institutions.

On the left, I don't think it's as simple. You do get people like the above but from what I've seen, at least, it's mostly rooted in anger at Israeli military actions and government actions. That's not to justify that antisemitism, mind, I'm just positing a possible explanation for it.

And as for Trump, well, anyone can see he hasn't been promulgating Jewish stereotypes. But he has been happy to court the support of white nationalists and supremacists. And although some, like Robert Bowers, will hate Trump because he doesn't go far enough, it'd be a mistake to dismiss the possibility of influence. I'd certainly agree with you in that.

Trump is happy to denounce specific instances of left-wing violence but will give a mealy-mouthed 'both sides' appeal when it's the far-right like in Charlottsville. It sends a message to these people.

Widdershins

Odhinn wrote: »

Let's take a look at that again -




Yep, shoehorning your agenda on a thread about the massacre of 11 people.

Right near the end of a page full of opinions about the politics of terror incidents like this, but it was my comment that you saw as shoehorning an agenda. That won't wash when political opinions that agree with yours are fine by you. Please drop it now. Even some of your fellow pesterers are showing that they can be halfway reasonable by now.

Widdershins

Is it ok to share this article by my friend Karen Harradine?
I found it food for thought and hope others might, too.https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/this-terrible-and-inevitable-attack-on-jews/?fbclid=IwAR2KHoXurnyKOgDPIChgzvTEhvdlPc0dORbryRWtQuRE_luVsj-bx8bsT8k

Odhinn

Widdershins wrote: »

Right near the end of a page full of opinions about the politics of terror incidents like this, but it was my comment that you saw as shoehorning an agenda. That won't wash when political opinions that agree with yours are fine by you. Please drop it now. Even some of your fellow pesterers are showing that they can be halfway reasonable by now.

I'm afraid that's exactly what you were/are doing - its in your post, so its not guesswork.

I find it weird that the far right are consistently implicated in these discussions while the antisemitic menace of the far left are let off the hook. I've heard the killer was anti-Trump and possibly a far leftist himself.

Also, where did you "hear" that the killer was a "far leftist"?

Igotadose

Widdershins wrote: »

Is it ok to share this article by my friend Karen Harradine?
I found it food for thought and hope others might, too.https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/this-terrible-and-inevitable-attack-on-jews/?fbclid=IwAR2KHoXurnyKOgDPIChgzvTEhvdlPc0dORbryRWtQuRE_luVsj-bx8bsT8k

Dalia Lithwick over at Slate has an article in the same vein, though more pointedly about Trump's followers. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/squirrel-hill-shooting-trump-anti-semitism-america.html

Human Sausage

Careful - Slate is one of the sources of left-wing propaganda while a site called Conservative Woman, on the other hand, is obviously completely unbiased. So unbiased, in fact, that even in the face of the killer himself stating explicitly that he took issue with immigration, she claims it has nothing to do with immigration.

In fact, just to remind everyone, here's the last post the killer made on Gab before going on his spree:

https://archive.is/1gI5n

HIAS likes to bring invaders in that kill our people.
I can't sit by and watch my people get slaughtered.
Screw your optics, I'm going in.

Seems pretty damn well clear to me that immigration was a core motivating factor.

Edit:

The point being that if we want to stop this kind of thing happening again, we need to address the causes of it. MI5 in the UK, for example, has taken over in investigating far-right terrorists. You don't stop this kind of thing happening by appeasing these people. Their beliefs, as right-wingers are so fond of saying, are incompatible with Western values.

Human Sausage

I would just love, once, for ****ing someone to answer me why we can never talk about the causes of right-wing terrorism. Why is it the right rushes to assure us it isn't the time to find the causes? When is the right time? When can we start stopping this **** at the source?

Where are those of you who condemn every Islamist attack and call for the expulsion of Muslims? Where are those of you who pick and pry at every last detail of the causes? We are being crushed under the ****ing enormity of your silence on this issue.

And if I sound angry then it's because I damn well am. This is what the rise of the far-right in Europe means. This is the kind of thing we're going to start seeing here. I mean Christ alive a British MP, Jo Cox, was assassinated but all people do is wring their hands about ah shure he had mental issues and he's not representative.

Some of us have to be afraid of people like that. Because you're Jewish or you're black, you're an LGBT person, whatever it is, and we're told that it's not the time to discuss the causes of why people like Robert Bowers do what he did. How many more have to die or be beaten or threatened and intimidated before you're willing to admit there's a problem?

Shame on you, all of you.

Widdershins

Igotadose wrote: »

Dalia Lithwick over at Slate has an article in the same vein, though more pointedly about Trump's followers. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/squirrel-hill-shooting-trump-anti-semitism-america.html

I think they're quite different then as Karen is saying that this was motivated by Jew-hatred and she's against making political capital from it.

To the other poster, labeling people, Karen is not politically right wing. That comment just illustrates her point.

Sweetemotion

Human Sausage wrote: »

I would just love, once, for ****ing someone to answer me why we can never talk about the causes of right-wing terrorism. Why is it the right rushes to assure us it isn't the time to find the causes? When is the right time? When can we start stopping this **** at the source?

Where are those of you who condemn every Islamist attack and call for the expulsion of Muslims? Where are those of you who pick and pry at every last detail of the causes? We are being crushed under the ****ing enormity of your silence on this issue.

And if I sound angry then it's because I damn well am. This is what the rise of the far-right in Europe means. This is the kind of thing we're going to start seeing here. I mean Christ alive a British MP, Jo Cox, was assassinated but all people do is wring their hands about ah shure he had mental issues and he's not representative.

Some of us have to be afraid of people like that. Because you're Jewish or you're black, you're an LGBT person, whatever it is, and we're told that it's not the time to discuss the causes of why people like Robert Bowers do what he did. How many more have to die or be beaten or threatened and intimidated before you're willing to admit there's a problem?

Shame on you, all of you.

I think. You've had enough Internet for the day.

Grayson

Sweetemotion wrote: »

I think. You've had enough Internet for the day.

He has a point. People tend to focus on islamic extremism but right wingers are responsible for more attacks than islamists in the US and even a lot of the time in Europe. Yet for some reason they're seen as less important.

We've had a mass mailbombing attempt and a synagogue shot up in the last few days and people are making excuses. Hell, for a while after all we heard was that the bombings were a false flag.

wexie

Grayson wrote: »

He has a point. People tend to focus on islamic extremism but right wingers are responsible for more attacks than islamists in the US and even a lot of the time in Europe. Yet for some reason they're seen as less important.

Just gonna throw it out there as a thought....but could it be a lot of people see the people committing these acts as 'misguided good guys' rather than the Muslim terrorists (for example) who are clearly the bad guys?

Human Sausage

Of course it is.

I see it all the time, the faux-caring about people Islamists hate (typically LGBT people and women) but when the far-right turns on us, they're silent or they deflect. They don't care. We're just a convenient stick to beat innocent Muslims with and I'm tired of being used like that.

I'm tired of people saying we need to address their concerns. By their nature, you can't address the concerns of extremists. How do you address the concerns of someone who believes that Jews control the world? Or that every immigrant is an invader? Or that LGBT people are "degenerates" who need to be wiped out?

Why is it so much to ask the right to condemn these people?

Widdershins

Human Sausage wrote: »

Of course it is.

I see it all the time, the faux-caring about people Islamists hate (typically LGBT people and women) but when the far-right turns on us, they're silent or they deflect. They don't care. We're just a convenient stick to beat innocent Muslims with and I'm tired of being used like that.

I'm tired of people saying we need to address their concerns. By their nature, you can't address the concerns of extremists. How do you address the concerns of someone who believes that Jews control the world? Or that every immigrant is an invader? Or that LGBT people are "degenerates" who need to be wiped out?

Why is it so much to ask the right to condemn these people?

Antisemitism is not new, that's what people are saying, or what I take from what I've read. So ''the rise of the far right'' is not resonating because it's *not new* and comes from every part of society. Despite what some posters here say I don't agree that it's a bigger threat than anything else. The fact that the label ''right wing'' in itself is like a dirty word shows that there is abundant condemnation and loathing and assumptions of racism etc for anyone in that group.

How would you know if someone is ''faux caring'' about Islamist homophobia etc?
And their reasons? You're not psychic. What you describe is known as virtue signalling and is more prevalent among lefty acquaintances of mine than righty acquaintances!

Grayson

wexie wrote: »

Just gonna throw it out there as a thought....but could it be a lot of people see the people committing these acts as 'misguided good guys' rather than the Muslim terrorists (for example) who are clearly the bad guys?

I don't think so, but it could be it. I think people tend to focus on differences maybe. So We tend to notice it more when it's not a white guy.

the media does play a large part in it. There's along story here about a guy that just corrects inaccurate media stories about muslims.

And before anyone else says that I'm lessening islamic terrorism, I'm just saying that muslims in general are turned into a boogyman by the press. I'm not saying that there are some that are violent and to commit attacks. The other side is that right wing extremists are generally ignored.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/oct/18/miqdaad-versi-very-polite-fight-against-british-media-islamophobia

Human Sausage

Widdershins wrote: »

Antisemitism is not new, that's what people are saying, or what I take from what I've read. So ''the rise of the far right'' is not resonating because it's *not new* and comes from every part of society. Despite what some posters here say I don't agree that it's a bigger threat than anything else. The fact that the label ''right wing'' in itself is like a dirty word shows that there is abundant condemnation and loathing and assumptions of racism etc for anyone in that group.

Maybe because it does mostly come from the right. That you don't want to acknowledge that uncomfortable truth isn't my problem.

Even now you can't stop with the bull**** equivocations.

How would you know if someone is ''faux caring'' about Islamist homophobia etc?

Because they dismiss any other instances of homophobia, quite simply. Or they don't listen to LGBT people. They're happy to use us as pawns, that's all.

And their reasons? You're not psychic. What you describe is known as virtue signalling and is more prevalent among lefty acquaintances of mine than righty acquaintances!

'Virtue signalling' is the insult the right uses against people that care about things they don't. It's the most empty, meaningless cynicism; it's impossible for anyone to sincerely care about things you don't so it has to be 'virtue signaling'.

Odhinn

Human Sausage wrote: »

Of course it is.

I see it all the time, the faux-caring about people Islamists hate (typically LGBT people and women) but when the far-right turns on us, they're silent or they deflect. They don't care. We're just a convenient stick to beat innocent Muslims with and I'm tired of being used like that.

I'm tired of people saying we need to address their concerns. By their nature, you can't address the concerns of extremists. How do you address the concerns of someone who believes that Jews control the world? Or that every immigrant is an invader? Or that LGBT people are "degenerates" who need to be wiped out?

Why is it so much to ask the right to condemn these people?

A stiff left jab, followed immecdiately on connection by a left hook?

Widdershins

Speaking of ignoring certain types of hatred, I don't think I've ever seen a terror attack, stabbing, vehicle attack, suicide bombing etc on Israel by a Hamas recruit, mentioned in the Irish media or even Boards. In light of the fact that they were going on long before jihad came to the West, I don't think it's surprising that people aren't suddenly convinced the far right are the new big threat to Jews.

Widdershins

Human Sausage wrote: »

Maybe because it does mostly come from the right. That you don't want to acknowledge that uncomfortable truth isn't my problem.

Even now you can't stop with the bull**** equivocations.



.

Not in our experience, clearly not others, people worry about what they see or experience problems from not what you tell them to worry about or complain that they're not worrying about enough.

Ok then if you must e persistently rude I'll ignore you. It would be so easy to engage in that myself and point out your illogical mistakes and claims but I'm not going to sink to that level.

Grayson

Widdershins wrote: »

Speaking of ignoring certain types of hatred, I don't think I've ever seen a terror attack, stabbing, vehicle attack, suicide bombing etc on Israel by a Hamas recruit, mentioned in the Irish media or even Boards. In light of the fact that they were going on long before jihad came to the West, I don't think it's surprising that people aren't suddenly convinced the far right are the new big threat to Jews.

It's in the news. I subscribe to the IT and see it there. As for the reason there aren't threads on it? Does there have to be? I've started feck all threads, was I supposed to be keeping a running total going? Or should we take turns?
Or is your post whatabouttery? Are you trying to deflect by saying that the Irish media, the entirety of the irish media, never reports on attacks on Israelis? Because you have to know that's not true.

Human Sausage

Widdershins wrote: »

Speaking of ignoring certain types of hatred, I don't think I've ever seen a terror attack, stabbing, vehicle attack, suicide bombing etc on Israel by a Hamas recruit, mentioned in the Irish media or even Boards. In light of the fact that they were going on long before jihad came to the West, I don't think it's surprising that people aren't suddenly convinced the far right are the new big threat to Jews.

And now, having nothing else left, you return to trying to drag the thread off-topic onto the subject of Israel. Inventing, once again, complete fabrications in the face of evidence that's publicly available for anyone to find. What you will not find and what I suspect you're desperately looking for, is a one-sided account of events solely in favour of Israel.

Israel is not unique in the world, it is not above the same criticism that any other country which engages in atrocities receives. If someone kills innocent people, then they deserve to be condemned. Perhaps you feel differently, perhaps you feel that certain people should be allowed kill with impunity. That would certainly explain your unwillingness to unequivocally condemn the shooting. I imagine, however, that most people would say no one should be allowed kill whomever they want without at least facing criticism.

Ignore me if you want but you're only showing that you can't possibly countenance right-wing violence and when asked to condemn it you instead bring up unrelated subjects to avoid talking about it. You will do anything—absolutely anything—to avoid having to admit that there might be people on the right who aren't good people.

I was a fool to think engaging with you honestly again would result in anything more than you returning to your lies. I sincerely hope you enjoy yourself, perpetuating this unadulterated bull****.