Pittsburgh synagogue shooting

Widdershins

This thread is satirical, isn't it?


So hopefully anyone with genuine curiosity/confusion will look for information somewhere legitimate like the international definition of antisemitism. You might recognise some of the sentiments you read there. It doesn't feel safe to speak on Boards.

Zionist is not a dirty word (except sometimes on internet sites, or maybe people who watch conspiracy theory films) it generally means someone who supports the state of Israel , with a right of return for Jewish people (as a safe haven for Jews if necessary, and as it doesn't exclude others from any aspect of public life- the right of return is not racist nor is there apartheid-which is one of the accusations described in the definition of antisemitism, by the way.) That obviously means taking into account their side of the story, and not expecting them to be downtrodden and weak, but does not mean you *have to* support any particular government/policies.

I think this is my first comment with my own view other than my 1st comment (about antisemitism in the Left) so I certainly have not '''professed'' to be an authority nor accused anyone in particular of anything. It doesn't feel safe to comment which tells me more than anything that's been said. Usually, on other subjects, it's the other way around, with critics of a culture/place/people being held to a very high and narrow standard.

nullzero

Widdershins wrote: »

This thread is satirical, isn't it?


So hopefully anyone with genuine curiosity/confusion will look for information somewhere legitimate like the international definition of antisemitism. You might recognise some of the sentiments you read there. It doesn't feel safe to speak on Boards.

Zionist is not a dirty word (except sometimes on internet sites, or maybe people who watch conspiracy theory films) it generally means someone who supports the state of Israel , with a right of return for Jewish people (as a safe haven for Jews if necessary, and as it doesn't exclude others from any aspect of public life- the right of return is not racist nor is there apartheid-which is one of the accusations described in the definition of antisemitism, by the way.) That obviously means taking into account their side of the story, and not expecting them to be downtrodden and weak, but does not mean you *have to* support any particular government/policies.

I think this is my first comment with my own view other than my 1st comment (about antisemitism in the Left) so I certainly have not '''professed'' to be an authority nor accused anyone in particular of anything. It doesn't feel safe to comment which tells me more than anything that's been said. Usually, on other subjects, it's the other way around, with critics of a culture/place/people being held to a very high and narrow standard.

Yet again criticising Israel is equated to conspiracy theory, the bare faced cheek of you to drag the conversation down to that level. You always have to take the moral high ground don't you? You should be ashamed of yourself yet again, your posting here has been condescending and ill informed and the above is a continuation of that trend.

Israel is an apartheid state that does not respect the basic human rights of Palestinians, this is not a conspiracy theory, even black Jews are discriminated against in Israel. Israel is demonstably an apartheid state regardless of how often you plunge your head into the sand on the issue regurgitating nonsense about Israel being a refuge for Jewish people.

As for it not seeming safe to speak on boards, you have got to be having a laugh. I have had incidents with the administration/moderation team on this forum in the past but they have allowed this discussion (which is extremely sensitive) to flow openly, which I feel they should be commended for. You just can't counter anything I've put to you with a reasonable response. Who needs facts when you can use emotive language and crib about the site not being "safe". This is a discussion forum, you have failed to discuss/debate the issue so now you're crying about not being able to "win".

Yet again you have not addressed the fact that Donald Trump is an avowed Zionist, and you have not clarified one important issue, do you believe israels treatment of Palestinians is justified? You claim to be a zionist, so I would assume you do. The definition of anything changes with time, being a zionist one hundred years ago meant what you outlined, these days Zionism encapsulates the behaviour of the right wing Israeli government.

Your argument has been extremely weak, you fail to counter anything put to you and then advise people to search externally for the material you believe in to get the "truth".

Shame on you Widdershins.

Odhinn

Widdershins wrote: »

This thread is satirical, isn't it?


So hopefully anyone with genuine curiosity/confusion will look for information somewhere legitimate like the international definition of antisemitism. You might recognise some of the sentiments you read there. It doesn't feel safe to speak on Boards.

Zionist is not a dirty word (except sometimes on internet sites, or maybe people who watch conspiracy theory films) it generally means someone who supports the state of Israel , with a right of return for Jewish people (as a safe haven for Jews if necessary, and as it doesn't exclude others from any aspect of public life- the right of return is not racist nor is there apartheid-which is one of the accusations described in the definition of antisemitism, by the way.) That obviously means taking into account their side of the story, and not expecting them to be downtrodden and weak, but does not mean you *have to* support any particular government/policies.

I think this is my first comment with my own view other than my 1st comment (about antisemitism in the Left) so I certainly have not '''professed'' to be an authority nor accused anyone in particular of anything. It doesn't feel safe to comment which tells me more than anything that's been said. Usually, on other subjects, it's the other way around, with critics of a culture/place/people being held to a very high and narrow standard.

The facts (some of them, for brevity) - There are two sets of laws in the occupied territories, often settler only areas and roads, checkpoints for palestinians only and so on. That is apartheid, and no amount of screeching otherwise is going to change it.

nullzero

Odhinn wrote: »

The facts (some of them, for brevity) - There are two sets of laws in the occupied territories, often settler only areas and roads, checkpoints for palestinians only and so on. That is apartheid, and no amount of screeching otherwise is going to change it.

Well said. Although according to Widdershins logic that's anti semitic.

Here's the thing, we're the roles reversed and Palestinians we're inflicting this horrendous abuse on Israel's it would still be wrong and I for one would be just as furious about that. This has nothing to do with religion, ethnicity or anything like that, it's about injustice plain and simple. Nobody should be subjugated anywhere for any reason, it isn't an issue of anti semitism and never has been.

Odhinn

nullzero wrote: »

Well said. Although according to Widdershins logic that's anti semitic.

Here's the thing, we're the roles reversed and Palestinians we're inflicting this horrendous abuse on Israel's it would still be wrong and I for one would be just as furious about that. This has nothing to do with religion, ethnicity or anything like that, it's about injustice plain and simple. Nobody should be subjugated anywhere for any reason, it isn't an issue of anti semitism and never has been.

True. Thngs are beginning to turn though. The israeli state are terrified of BDS catching on.



For anyone who thinks I'm making this apartheid comparison up, or wants to know more

https://www.btselem.org/topic/settlements

Widdershins

Yes I would encourage anyone to seek ''external information'' and only suggested the definition of antisemitism which is not biased. Even Labour UK have accepted this definition so even by the standards of a party that has been dogged by antisemitism, this thread is extremely questionable. Much of the conversation here is listed in the definition. So there's no doubt who has the agenda on this thread. So even leaving aside the grotesque behaviour on the thread and just focusing on that, it is very interesting that Boards moderators have decided to ''let this conversation flow''.

Odhinn

Widdershins wrote: »

Yes I would encourage anyone to seek ''external information'' and only suggested the definition of antisemitism which is not biased. Even Labour UK have accepted this definition so even by the standards of a party that has been dogged by antisemitism, this thread is extremely questionable. Much of the conversation here is listed in the definition. So there's no doubt who has the agenda on this thread. So even leaving aside the grotesque behaviour on the thread and just focusing on that, it is very interesting that Boards moderators have decided to ''let this conversation flow''.

Yes, it is. Maybe because it helps expose whats really going on, and that some shouting "antisemitism" at the drop of a hat isn't grounds to end the discussion.


Here's the attitude taken by Israeli forces with an 8 year old Palestinian girl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MWiPhRylGg

and heres the attitude shown to masked stone throwing settlers/colonists

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLRpZVGKW64

I don't think "apartheid" is too harsh a description - not harsh enough perhaps.

PlaneSpeeking

And once again it is shown that there are posters on here who decree what views are allowed.

I support Israel. End of story.

Odhinn

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And once again it is shown that there are posters on here who decree what views are allowed.

I support Israel. End of story.

You support the colonisation of the west bank, golan and the other occupied territories?

Widdershins

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And once again it is shown that there are posters on here who decree what views are allowed.

I support Israel. End of story.

Agh run the Boards Inquisition will be here any moment

Widdershins

I came here to add this news, further to my point about antismitism in the Left, which riled some people up so much.

''Scotland Yard has opened a criminal investigation into allegations of antisemitic hate crimes linked to Labour party members, according to the commissioner of the Metropolitan police.

Cressida Dick said officers had reviewed a leaked party dossier detailing 45 cases of alleged antisemitism that was passed to her in September by the radio station LBC.

The UK’s most senior police officer told the BBC she believed there could be a case to answer and, as a result, the force was consulting with prosecutors on the next steps.

“We have been assessing some material that was passed to me, in a radio studio of all things, about two months ago and we are now investigating some of that material because it appears there may have been a crime committed,” Dick said.

“We are liaising immediately with the Crown Prosecution Service and I hope we will be able to clear that up very quickly.”

LBC received an internal Labour dossier detailing 45 cases involving messages posted by party members on social media, including one that read: “We shall rid the Jews who are a cancer on us all.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/02/met-police-opens-criminal-inquiry-into-labour-antisemitism-claims?CMP=share_btn_fb&fbclid=IwAR0u6xsvt0U2dNceU2SvAmiBbXstMt3I2maLGu7672xs210-XL2C0hxxwAk

mcmoustache

So a right-wing gab poster goes on a shooting spree and the conversation is about people's views on the Israeli occupation of Palestine? That level of whataboutery and derailment is impressive.

Odhinn

Widdershins wrote: »

I came here to add this news, further to my point about antismitism in the Left, which riled some people up so much.

'(.............)

There are anti-semites on the left. However BDS, criticism of Israeli policy as regards the occupied territories & Palestinians, or armed resistance to that regime, are not anti-semetic. Thats what "riled" people, and rightly so.

James Brown

It's unfortunate the Israeli flag of hate was seen at the remembrance ceremonies. Puts any idea of cross religion brotherhood to bed.

The Jewish place of worship 'should have armed guards'. What could Trump say? One of his own white, gun nut. Great to see people protest his not denouncing white supremacists. Once again decent people pay the price.

Widdershins

Best one yet. Armed resistance presumably an allusion to Hamas terrorism (the very reason for Israel's checkpoints and the Iron Dome)? Not antisemitic? I haven't accused a single person here of antisemitism. I can draw my own conclusions but I will not enter into grotesque arguments about Israel on such a thread. This is a thread about murdered Jews in America. I continue to support Israel the Jewish homeland and see the need for it more and more at times like these, after those tragic deaths.

James Brown

Widdershins wrote: »

Best one yet. Armed resistance presumably an allusion to Hamas terrorism (the very reason for Israel's checkpoints and the Iron Dome)? Not antisemitic? I haven't accused a single person here of antisemitism. I can draw my own conclusions but I will not enter into grotesque arguments about Israel on such a thread. This is a thread about murdered Jews in America. I continue to support Israel the Jewish homeland and see the need for it more and more at times like these, after those tragic deaths.

You are a resistance fighter when fighting invading land stealing animals on your own land, IMO.

Israel needs to stop insulting good Jewish people by always affiliating anything Jewish as being associated with the murderous Israeli state, IMO.
If seven day Adventists were stealing the land and butchering civilians, I'm sure they'd be getting the same. It's not the religion, it's the deeds carried our by people not their faith. Not all Jews murder and steal land, Israelis do. Most are Jewish.

Some Jewish people in Pittsburgh were murdered. What kind of environment gives rise to such a thing needs looking at.

fxotoole

What’s a gab account?

Odhinn

Widdershins wrote: »

Best one yet. Armed resistance presumably an allusion to Hamas terrorism (the very reason for Israel's checkpoints and the Iron Dome)?

There was checkpoints long before hamas, nor are they the only palestinian group - the occupation began in 1967 after all.

Widdershins wrote: »

Not antisemitic? I haven't accused a single person here of antisemitism.

You insinuated that BDS is anti-semetic.

Widdershins wrote: »

I can draw my own conclusions but I will not enter into grotesque arguments about Israel on such a thread. This is a thread about murdered Jews in America. I continue to support Israel the Jewish homeland and see the need for it more and more at times like these, after those tragic deaths.

On a thread about non-israelis, wishing to conflate jewishness and all jews with Israel (which, funny enough, would in my view be quite an anti-semetic view to espouse).

Odhinn

fxotoole wrote: »

What’s a gab account?

Twitter for nazis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gab_(social_network)

Widdershins

Utter nonsense. My first comment about Israel was a response to other comments about Israel, namely the question ''what's wrong with being anti zionist''. Denmark and more and more countries would agree with the idea that BDS is anti semitic and supports terrorism.

It's the perpetuation of lies and half truths, ''pallywood'' propaganda, and conspiracy theories that lead to ignorance and killings like the Pittsburgh murders. In Muslim grooming gang cases there's a moratorium on reporting the trials, and a hesitance to ''inflame'' racist sentiment by covering negative incidents. Despite the endless incidents of antisemitic hate and violence (statistically the most common form of racism), there is no hesitance to slander Israel (not that Israel is comparable to grooming gangs anyway). Israel is dear to many Jews. It's sheer arrogance to suggest those Jewish people are not ''good Jews''. And beyond arrogance and irony to accuse anyone of antisemitism after the repeated perpetuation of antisemitic tropes as laid out in the international definition.

It's fascinating that some people can imagine that the international definition of antisemitism would list examples like the slurs used against Israel in this thread, if they were true and accurate. How did that happen? How did the definition come to include these slurs if they are true?

Again people should educate themselves on both Israel and the history of antisemitism, from external sites. Boards/After Hours have no standards that I can see, and it's not an appropriate source of information.

Had those poor people been murdered in an Israeli synagogue (like many Israelis have been murdered by Hamas terror) it seems according to the above comments that the murderer would be a ''resistance fighter'' and they ''animals''. Unless the poster is confused and under the impression that Israeli citizens are not the targets of Hamas attacks. I can only hope they are confused.

nullzero

Widdershins wrote: »

Utter nonsense. My first comment about Israel was a response to other comments about Israel, namely the question ''what's wrong with being anti zionist''. Denmark and more and more countries would agree with the idea that BDS is anti semitic and supports terrorism.

It's the perpetuation of lies and half truths, ''pallywood'' propaganda, and conspiracy theories that lead to ignorance and killings like the Pittsburgh murders. In Muslim grooming gang cases there's a moratorium on reporting the trials, and a hesitance to ''inflame'' racist sentiment by covering negative incidents. Despite the endless incidents of antisemitic hate and violence (statistically the most common form of racism), there is no hesitance to slander Israel (not that Israel is comparable to grooming gangs anyway). Israel is dear to many Jews. It's sheer arrogance to suggest those Jewish people are not ''good Jews''. And beyond arrogance and irony to accuse anyone of antisemitism after the repeated perpetuation of antisemitic tropes as laid out in the international definition.

It's fascinating that some people can imagine that the international definition of antisemitism would list examples like the slurs used against Israel in this thread, if they were true and accurate. How did that happen? How did the definition come to include these slurs if they are true?

Again people should educate themselves on both Israel and the history of antisemitism, from external sites. Boards/After Hours have no standards that I can see, and it's not an appropriate source of information.

Had those poor people been murdered in an Israeli synagogue (like many Israelis have been murdered by Hamas terror) it seems according to the above comments that the murderer would be a ''resistance fighter'' and they ''animals''. Unless the poster is confused and under the impression that Israeli citizens are not the targets of Hamas attacks. I can only hope they are confused.

There were questions posed to you a few days ago that you haven't answered.
You're back to spouting your nonsense yet again without addressing the questions.
You were saying boards isn't "safe to post on" because people wouldn't allow you to accuse people of anti semitism for not agreeing with you.

You really do have a brass neck to preach to people here when you can't cobble together a reasonable argument and instead acuse anyone who doesn't agree with you of being anti semitic.

If anybody here is in need of education you have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that it is you.

You cherry pick the facts you want to suit your agenda. Why do you suppose there are Hamas terrorist attacks? I'm not excusing terrorist attacks but Hamas are the embodiment of Palestinian desperation which is expressed violently, just as the IDF attack Palestinians. There is blame on both sides but Israel is not an innocent victim, yet again you fail to give a balanced account.

Do Palestinians have basic human rights?
Please answer the question.

nullzero

mcmoustache wrote: »

So a right-wing gab poster goes on a shooting spree and the conversation is about people's views on the Israeli occupation of Palestine? That level of whataboutery and derailment is impressive.

The man was left wing.
The conversation developed to include Zionism as Trump is an avowed Zionist which made the claim that he was encouraging anti semitic violence ridiculous. Zionism and the israeli discussion blossomed from that, not to mention everything being judged to be anti semitic by some posters.

Widdershins

I haven't accused anyone of antisemitism on Boards. I keep my personal opinions to myself. I simply pointed out your rude manner.

Behaving like the inquisition isn't conducive to conversation, and your ''questions'' are fundamentally flawed. Not to mention inappropriate. Rather than setting out to rubbish my post, it would be lovely if you would actually think about it. When others brought Israel (and zionism) up I hoped to gently offer my experience/views, not incite the kind of thing that has been going on here. It's very disrespectful. But also an important insight.

You won't bait me no matter what you say.

I'm not religious, but I'll be thinking of the victims of antisemitism everywhere, again, after this disturbing thread.

steddyeddy

Widdershins wrote: »

Utter nonsense. My first comment about Israel was a response to other comments about Israel, namely the question ''what's wrong with being anti zionist''. Denmark and more and more countries would agree with the idea that BDS is anti semitic and supports terrorism.

It's the perpetuation of lies and half truths, ''pallywood'' propaganda, and conspiracy theories that lead to ignorance and killings like the Pittsburgh murders. In Muslim grooming gang cases there's a moratorium on reporting the trials, and a hesitance to ''inflame'' racist sentiment by covering negative incidents. Despite the endless incidents of antisemitic hate and violence (statistically the most common form of racism), there is no hesitance to slander Israel (not that Israel is comparable to grooming gangs anyway). Israel is dear to many Jews. It's sheer arrogance to suggest those Jewish people are not ''good Jews''. And beyond arrogance and irony to accuse anyone of antisemitism after the repeated perpetuation of antisemitic tropes as laid out in the international definition.

It's fascinating that some people can imagine that the international definition of antisemitism would list examples like the slurs used against Israel in this thread, if they were true and accurate. How did that happen? How did the definition come to include these slurs if they are true?

Again people should educate themselves on both Israel and the history of antisemitism, from external sites. Boards/After Hours have no standards that I can see, and it's not an appropriate source of information.

Had those poor people been murdered in an Israeli synagogue (like many Israelis have been murdered by Hamas terror) it seems according to the above comments that the murderer would be a ''resistance fighter'' and they ''animals''. Unless the poster is confused and under the impression that Israeli citizens are not the targets of Hamas attacks. I can only hope they are confused.

So by your definition people who criticise Palestine or the idea of Palestine are anti-arabic.

nullzero

Widdershins wrote: »

I haven't accused anyone of antisemitism on Boards. I keep my personal opinions to myself. I simply pointed out your rude manner.

Behaving like the inquisition isn't conducive to conversation, and your ''questions'' are fundamentally flawed. Not to mention inappropriate. Rather than setting out to rubbish my post, it would be lovely if you would actually think about it. When others brought Israel (and zionism) up I hoped to gently offer my experience/views, not incite the kind of thing that has been going on here. It's very disrespectful. But also an important insight.

You won't bait me no matter what you say.

I'm not religious, but I'll be thinking of the victims of antisemitism everywhere, again, after this disturbing thread.

You have continuously failed to answer basic questions and your attempt to take the moral high ground is laughable.

WinnyThePoo

What widershins has attempted to do is take a thread about a nut job who killed innocents from a synagogue into some sort of left wing anti semitism angle.

It's transparent. The man posted on gab. A very far right wing site. Baffling seeing people take widershins seriously.

shady acres

lads none of you have ever been to Israel
don't believe everything you hear on your msm
i was there and travelled north, south, east and west for work
it's the same as every other country

Arthur Daley

steddyeddy wrote: »

So by your definition people who criticise Palestine or the idea of Palestine are anti-arabic.

Well actually they are anti-semitic, as the people there are semitic.

super_furry

fxotoole wrote: »

What’s a gab account?

It's Twitter for racists, nazis and anti-semites.

nullzero

shady acres wrote: »

lads none of you have ever been to Israel
don't believe everything you hear on your msm
i was there and travelled north, south, east and west for work
it's the same as every other country

It's the same as every other apartheid state that is armed to the teeth and aggressive towards all of its neighbours.