Madeleine McCann

Tomw86

Something Else

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Just a reminder, we've been down this neglect avenue already and it looks like it's going done the same path again.


I don't want to see that on the thread as it causes a train wreck.

Sorry, I don't think I saw the previous discussion on it.

I simply quoted a definition of child neglect from the NSPCC in the UK and asked the previous poster to advise how it was not defined as neglect.

Facts and legal definitions cannot be argued with

gozunda

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

I'm not interested in researching those file as they are fundamentally flawed and contaminated.

Eh seriously???? I for one am not going to rely on the tabloid reporting for sure.

The PJ files are the translations of investigation documents officially released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law. The released documents are marked as belonging to the Ministerio Publico in Portimao, Portugal.

The BBC in BBC Panorama programme have also used and detailed the PJ files in the the story "Madeleine McCann: 10 years on"

You could of course take the original documents as written in Portuguese and get them translated for your own perusal if your not happy with the translations...

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

Steve F wrote: »

It wasn't a photo,it was video.It was posted on youtube but I can't remember the channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VlS-gO5Ask

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maebee wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VlS-gO5Ask

Here we go again, taking a 5 second video and wrenching it out of context.

v638sg7k1a92bx

gozunda wrote: »

Eh seriously???? I for one am not going to rely on the tabloid reporting for sure.

The PJ files are the translations of investigation documents officially released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law. The released documents are marked as belonging to the Ministerio Publico in Portimao, Portugal.

The BBC in the BBC Panorama programme have also used and detailed documents taken from the PJ files in the the story "Madeleine McCann: 10 years on"

You could of course take the original documents as written in Portuguese and get them translated for your own perusal if your not happy with the translations...

The PJ files prove absolutely nothing. There is no evidence that Madeline McCann is dead. Their investigation was fundamentally flawed from the outset.

v638sg7k1a92bx

chicorytip wrote: »

A formal suspect for what? The murder itself?? He was accused of falsifying documentation in relation to the case - a charge that, to my knowledge, was not upheld. He had no direct role in the interrogation of the suspects who, by the way, happened to be the mother and uncle of the murdered girl. They had been conducting an incestuous relationship and had been seen having sex by Joana. They decided to kill her to prevent their secret from being exposed.
Amaral did not purport the "freezer" theory in relation to Madeleine. That is something that has been speculated about by investigating journalists and people on internet forums such as this one. He is convinced that the McCann's are lying and that Madeleine died (accidentally) in the apartment.

The mother in that case retracted her confession btw.

Amaral is a convicted perjurer, not the McCann's. So you can save your phoney outrage for another day. Why do you put so much stock in a convicted perjurer peddling his book about a dodgy conspiracy theory based on zero evidence?

Also, the national director of the PJ, Alípio Ribeiro, resigned, citing media pressure from the investigation; he had publicly said the police had been hasty in naming the McCanns as suspects http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7387166.stm

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

Here we go again, taking a 5 second video and wrenching it out of context.

It is what is is. Not at all out of context. Gerry McCann is laughing his head off, days after his 3 year old daughter "has been abducted". Very very strange.

v638sg7k1a92bx

gozunda wrote: »

Eh seriously???? I for one am not going to rely on the tabloid reporting for sure.

The PJ files are the translations of investigation documents officially released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law. The released documents are marked as belonging to the Ministerio Publico in Portimao, Portugal.

The BBC in the BBC Panorama programme have also used and detailed documents taken from the PJ files in the the story "Madeleine McCann: 10 years on"

You could of course take the original documents as written in Portuguese and get them translated for your own perusal if your not happy with the translations...

On 4 August Portugal's Ministério Público released 17 case files containing 11,233 pages on CD-ROM to the media, including 2,550 pages of sightings. The files included a 58-page prosecutors' report, which concluded: "No element of proof whatsoever was found which allows us to form any lucid, sensible, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances."

So much for your PJ files.

v638sg7k1a92bx

maebee wrote: »

It is what is is. Not at all out of context. Gerry McCann is laughing his head off, days after his 3 year old daughter "has been abducted". Very very strange.

So he is supposed to go around in a catatonic state? You have no idea what the conversation is or what the context is.

You really are barrel scraping at this stage.

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

So he is supposed to go around in a catatonic state? You have no idea what the conversation is or what the context is.

You really are barrel scraping at this stage.

No barrel scraping. Abducted child = no laughter - ever.

GM had a long term plan - http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.com/2009/09/gerry-mccann-and-long-term-agenda.html

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

So he is supposed to go around in a catatonic state? You have no idea what the conversation is or what the context is.

You really are barrel scraping at this stage.

No barrel scraping. He is in hysterics 3 days after his 3 year old daughter was "abducted" and possibly in the hands of pedophiles? Unbelievable.

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

https://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.com/2009/09/gerry-mccann-and-long-term-agenda.html

"They refuse to leave Praia da Luz while their precious daughter is still missing"

That changed come Arguido day.

gozunda

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

The PJ files prove absolutely nothing. There is no evidence that Madeline McCann is dead. Their investigation was fundamentally flawed from the outset.

Who say they 'prove' anything? As detailed the files are a record of the interviews and the details of that investigation. The scanned documents simply record the communications and various reports. It also includes the British police's rogatory interviews of the Tapas 7 and others incuding the social worker yiu didnt know existed etc.

It's irrelevant that you believe some conspiracy by the police or whether the child is dead or otherwise. Without a knowledge of these files - you wont have a clue of what is known or who was interviewed. I strongly suggest you do a bit of research and engage with the actual discussion.

Boom_Bap

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

maebee wrote: »

https://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.com/2009/09/gerry-mccann-and-long-term-agenda.html

"They refuse to leave Praia da Luz while their precious daughter is still missing"

That changed come Arguido day.

Well, picture a scenario where they are truthful and honest in what they say and that their daughter was taken from their apartment.


If I was them, I would like the police to focus their attention on finding my daughter rather than them try to pin something on me.

hawkelady

Something Else

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Well, picture a scenario where they are truthful and honest in what they say and that their daughter was taken from their apartment.


If I was them, I would like the police to focus their attention on finding my daughter rather than them try to pin something on me.

The cops didn’t “ try and pin” anything on the parents , I’m sure ! On the limited amount of evidence available to them , they got the impression that the parents could be involved. Nothing unprofessional about that ... the cops keep an open mind , I’m still puzzled why the English cops were only allowed investigate an abduction ..

Boom_Bap

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

hawkelady wrote: »

The cops didn’t “ try and pin” anything on the parents , I’m sure ! On the limited amount of evidence available to them , they got the impression that the parents could be involved. Nothing unprofessional about that ... the cops keep an open mind , I’m still puzzled why the English cops were only allowed investigate an abduction ..

They brought them in for lengthy interviews/questioning and named them as arguidos without any evidence.
Whatever they were doing, they weren't looking for Madeline by the looks of things, and I think that's how the McCann's looked at the situation.....or depending on your stance, how they wanted to appear to look in the situation

gozunda

Something Else

Boom_Bap wrote: »

They brought them in for lengthy interviews/questioning and named them as arguidos without any evidence.
Whatever they were doing, they weren't looking for Madeline by the looks of things, and I think that's how the McCann's looked at the situation.....or depending on your stance, how they wanted to appear to look in the situation

Tbh I reckon they were doing the best they could given the glare of the worlds media and working in Tandem with the UK police on the ground.
The McCanns wern't declared Arguidos until after a considerable period and only then on suspicion that the child may have died accidentally and the body may have been hidden.

It remains that those closest to a victim of a crime are as a rule to be eliminated from an investigation. Unfortunately the parents behaviour in this regard plus I believe a certain arrogance or stupidity on their part (I'm not sure which) running their own (illegal in Portugal afaik) private investigation and using the media despite being advised to not to do so were among some of the things which led them to being declared suspects several months later. And unfortunately rather than working with the investigation to show there were no grounds - least one of then refused to cooperate and they both left Portugal.

v638sg7k1a92bx

gozunda wrote: »

Tbh I reckon they were doing the best they could given the glare of the worlds media and working in Tandem with the UK police on the ground.
The McCanns wern't declared Arguidos until after a considerable period and only then on suspicion that the child may have died accidentally and the body may have been hidden.

It remains that those closest to a victim of a crime are as a rule to be eliminated from an investigation. Unfortunately the parents behaviour in this regard plus I believe a certain arrogance or stupidity on their part (I'm not sure which) running their own (illegal in Portugal afaik) private investigation and using the media despite being advised to not to do so were among some of the things which led them to being declared suspects several months later. And unfortunately rather than working with the investigation to show there were no grounds - least one of then refused to cooperate and they both left Portugal.

You fail to acknowledge the behaviour of the Portuguese police and that of since convicted perjurer Goncalo Amaral and how their manhandling of the entire investigation lead to a complete breakdown in in the relationship between the McCann's and the Portuguese police. Why would they stay and expose themselves to the risk of a since convicted perjurer. Who knows what he would have said or done to implicate the McCann's, lest he might sell more books.

You also fail to acknowledge that it was the Portuguese police leaking to the media (illegal in Portugal afaik) and not the McCanns.

So the only people involved in this investigation who have actually broke Portuguese law, some of whom have been convicted of doing so, are members of the Portuguese police.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Just because we have an absence of evidence doesn't mean that you can fill in the gaps with whatever fairy tale most appeals to you.

This thread reminds me of the Dara O'Bhrian skit about nutritionists. Part of the skits he says that he would put nutritionists, psychics and astrologists in a sack, close it with string and hit the sack with a stick. Anyone in answer to the McCann case that says "oh the parents are guilty, they must be involved, they're hiding something, "MI5 hid the body" "there's no evidence of an abductions", and when I ask, do you have any evidence for that and they say "look at Gerry McCann laughing in this 5 second video", or "their behaviour is very strange" or "I trust dogs over people any day" or "I'm just exploring a theory" - those people also need to get in the sack.

Tomw86

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

Just because we have an absence of evidence doesn't mean that you can fill in the gaps with whatever fairy tale most appeals to you.

This thread reminds me of the Dara O'Bhrian skit about nutritionists. Part of the skits he says that he would put nutritionists, psychics and astrologists in a sack, close it with string and hit the sack with a stick. Anyone in answer to the McCann case that says "oh the parents are guilty, they must be involved, they're hiding something, "MI5 hid the body" "there's no evidence of an abductions", and when I ask, do you have any evidence for that and they say "look at Gerry McCann laughing in this 5 second video", or "their behaviour is very strange" or "I trust dogs over people any day" or "I'm just exploring a theory" - those people also need to get in the sack.

I see you skirted the issue of the definition of child neglect and that the McCanns were GUILTY of that earlier and have moved on.

I agree with above, there is no evidence of the parents being involved, the same way there is no evidence she was taken by a stranger from her bed.

It is very peculiar, but many people have given THEORIES on what they thing happened and why, and you keep attacking the ones you don't agree with. Please get a grip.

Spanish Eyes

Tomw86 wrote: »

I see you skirted the issue of the definition of child neglect and that the McCanns were GUILTY of that earlier and have moved on.

I agree with above, there is no evidence of the parents being involved, the same way there is no evidence she was taken by a stranger from her bed.

It is very peculiar, but many people have given THEORIES on what they thing happened and why, and you keep attacking the ones you don't agree with. Please get a grip.

It is binary now, either you have a brain and are open to theories, or you are dim and believe what you believe without any facts to back it up.

I think the thread will disappear in time anyway. We will never know, and no one has the right to say exactly what happened either. No one knows.

But we can all have our suspicions....

v638sg7k1a92bx

Tomw86 wrote: »

I see you skirted the issue of the definition of child neglect and that the McCanns were GUILTY of that earlier and have moved on.

No skirting involved, see what the mod posted below. Anyway, child neglect is defined as a failure to meet a child’s basic needs, leaving a child alone does not fall into this category so you can type the word in caps all you want, but your understanding of it is still wrong. In Ireland, there isn’t a set legal age for leaving children alone.
I still get surprised by people who make such strong assertions with little or no knowledge of the facts only to dig their heels in more when those facts are pointed out to them.

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Just a reminder, we've been down this neglect avenue already and it looks like it's going done the same path again.
I don't want to see that on the thread as it causes a train wreck.

Tomw86 wrote: »

I agree with above, there is no evidence of the parents being involved, the same way there is no evidence she was taken by a stranger from her bed.
It is very peculiar, but many people have given THEORIES on what they thing happened and why, and you keep attacking the ones you don't agree with. Please get a grip.

Just because there is no evidence doesn’t mean you can fill the gaps with whatever fairy tale appeals to you the most.

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

There are a lot of Myths about this case.

A good read below



Madeleine McCann - Exposing the Myths

http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

v638sg7k1a92bx

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It is binary now, either you have a brain and are open to theories, or you are dim and believe what you believe without any facts to back it up.

I think the thread will disappear in time anyway. We will never know, and no one has the right to say exactly what happened either. No one knows.

But we can all have our suspicions....

Exactly, there are those who have their "theories" about the McCann's that go into the bag along with nutritionists, psychics and astrologists and then there are the people who don't go in the bag that visit real doctors when they are sick, don't get their news from the position of the stars and accept that the McCann's had nothing to do with the disappearance of their daughter.

gozunda

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

Just because we have an absence of evidence doesn't mean that you can fill in the gaps with whatever fairy tale most appeals to you. ...

The same sentiment can be expressed by everyone else on this thread and could just as reliably be turned at anyone involved in the discussion. You are not immune. Btw.

If leaving 3 babies alone in an apartment isn't child neglect wtf is it?

gozunda

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

You fail to acknowledge the behaviour of the Portuguese police and that of since convicted perjurer Goncalo Amaral and how their manhandling of the entire investigation lead to a complete breakdown in in the relationship between the McCann's and the Portuguese police. Why would they stay and expose themselves to the risk of a since convicted perjurer. Who knows what he would have said or done to implicate the McCann's, lest he might sell more books.
(My note: your timeline is wrong - none of this occured until 2008-2009.The McCcann left Portugal end of August 2007)

You also fail to acknowledge that it was the Portuguese police leaking to the media (illegal in Portugal afaik) and not the McCanns.

So the only people involved in this investigation who have actually broke Portuguese law, some of whom have been convicted of doing so, are members of the Portuguese police.

Much of the timeline etc you detail above is wrong btw.

As suggested you need to study the official files to get a grasp on what happened and when.

The facts are:

That Madeleine disappeared whilst supposedly under the care of her parents has nothing to do with Amaral Concalo.

The British poilice were working in conjunction with the Portuguese Police and Mr Concalo from the very start until the McCanns left and continued after that date afaik

Mr Concalo was on the case for only approx 3 months. He was removed after the Mcanns left portugal relating to another case. He was not a convicted perjuer' (sic) at that time. He was not sacked, nor was any book written or published by him at the time the McCanns left Portugal. His book was published much later in late 2008 after he retired from the Portuguese Police.

The investigation was taken over by other police and investigators and continued afterwards

In that timeframe between the Cipriano case with the alleged murder of the child by its parents and when separately the McCanns left Portugal - it is highly unlilkley the mccanns could have known or have been made party to anything regarding to what would have been an internal police matter.

From the records it would appear the McCanns were triggered to leave Portugal by virtue of being made Arguidos.

That much of what you describe above was played out in the media in the aftermath of what happened is evident from the public record.
Much of it is contradictory and nearly impossible to figure out with any reliability tbh.

It would appear that both the some of the McCanns party and some elements within Portugal leaked information to the Press. However there is little hard evidence WHO exactly was responsible for such leaks. Unfortunately we can only speculate.

If you know where Concalo admits to him divulging or leaking information whiostvthe case was ongoing could you provide an official link to the source eg UK police statements and not media speculation.

Afaik the issue of the case with the alleged murder and chopping up of a little Cipriano girl by her parents and what happened with the subsequent internal police matter was not made public until much later and not until after the McCanns left Portugal.

Amaral was not present during an alleged assault in the Cipriano case but was accused of having covered up for other officers which he denied; he was convicted of having falsified police documents in the case and received a suspended sentence in 2009.

This case involving Mr Concalo and the Ciprano case and the ruling on that was some two years after (2009) when the McCanns had already left Portugal and when they had been made arguidos in August 2007

The McCanns arguido status was only removed after their own case was shelved in 2008 due to an apparent lack of evidence and lack cooperation from the parties involved.

Mr Concalos role has been endlessly gone over again and again in this thread and tbh it is largely irrelevant to what I have detailed above.

Rampant speculation on what might or might not have happened is heresy is largely the stuff of the tabloids tbh. I do not use or bother with the largrly unreliable media reports in this case.

goat2

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

I believe the child was taken


Why would the McCannes be keeping this in the news if they had anything to do with her disappearance, they would know where she is and would be keeping quiet in the hope that all would be forgotten by the media,

But they are doing what any parent with a missing child would do, keeping it in the spotlight in hopes of finding her,

there are many children that have been abducted and found, some not found alive.
We really know nothing until she is found alive or dead, hopefully alive

gozunda

Something Else

MonkieSocks wrote: »

There are a lot of Myths about this case. A good read below
Madeleine McCann - Exposing the Myths
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Yeah I've seen it tbh. It's a blog disputing what is said on other blogs regarding the McCann case. Best give the whole lot a wide berth imo.

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

GM planning an anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance .

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id302.htm

"Gerry McCann, 38, said: "One of the ideas is maybe getting all the people who have publicly supported us to come together. I don't just mean from the UK but from different parts of the world. We want a big event to raise awareness that she is still missing.

"We would look at high-profile people who have already pledged support. It will be some sort of focus around an anniversary, to tell people that Madeleine's still missing. I think it would be later this year, once media attention has dropped, to bring it back up, hopefully, for a short period.

Later that year?

So he knew that Madeleine wasn't going to be found until at least later that year.