Madeleine McCann

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

They've always acknowledged that they left the kids alone. Nobody debates this, even the people who suggest that the McCanns' are lying believe them when they say they left their kids alone, which then raises the question that if people choose to question everything else the McCann's say then why selectively choose the believe the McCann's when they say they left the kids alone?

The children were medicated and left alone. The 1.5 hours Madeline cried the night before calling for her father. Show you, you are being lied to by Gerry and the coloring booking timelines. Obviously you don't mind.

Why do you think you shouldn't let small young children completely alone? Accidents happen.

How do you explain the dogs positive indications for cadaver and blood odor in the apartment? Have you got a theory for this too? I'm sure you have a conspiracy theory for this too?

EDit

maebee wrote: »

If Madeleine died or was seriously injured, it was as a direct result of neglect on the part of her parents. All the adults in that group were negligent and therefore culpable. They would have been looking at career ends, possible jail sentences and the possibility of their remaining kids being taken from them. I shudder to think it, but if she died, she wasn't coming back and they did what they felt was necessary .

Utter ****e...so, if I go out for dinner with someone and they leave the table to go off and murder someone in the toilets and then come back, I am culpable for that murder? The other people at the table are only responsible for their own children (if they had any) who were not killed or kidnapped. The only people guilty of neglect in the case of Madeleine were her parents.

hawkelady

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

lol, you seem to have alot of experience in desperation, particularly when it comes to trying to suggest the parents and friends were involved in the disappearance.

The only desperation was that of parents trying to find their missing child, and on the flip side, the desperation of conspiracy theorists trying to suggest the McCann's are responsible by taking every word and action they made and try to wrench it out of context as if it was some indication of guilt.

You forgot about the desperation of deleting phone calls made while they were “frantically” looking for their missing child. Sure it would be top of their list to do that , wouldn’t it? They would only do that if they had something to hide !
I’m sure you’ll come back with an excuse for them though

v638sg7k1a92bx

hawkelady wrote: »

You forgot about the desperation of deleting phone calls made while they were “frantically” looking for their missing child. Sure it would be top of their list to do that , wouldn’t it? They would only do that if they had something to hide !
I’m sure you’ll come back with an excuse for them though

What phone calls did they delete?

v638sg7k1a92bx

OwlsZat wrote: »

The children were medicated and left alone. The 1.5 hours Madeline cried the night before calling for her father. Show you, you are being lied to by Gerry and the coloring booking timelines. Obviously you don't mind.

1. How do you know the kids were medicated?
2. How do you know that they were crying for 1.5 hours the night before?

OwlsZat wrote: »

How do you explain the dogs positive indications for cadaver and blood odor in the apartment? Have you got a theory for this too? I'm sure you have a conspiracy theory for this too?

1. Cadaver dogs are not reliable evidence in their own right, the dogs could have been barking at anything. You would also have to believe that the body had decomposed to such an extent in approx. 2 hours that it left a scent that could be detected by dogs weeks later. Doesn't pass the sniff test to me, bodies don't decompose and stagnate that quickly.

hawkelady

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

What phone calls did they delete?

I’m not here to hold your hand ... also, the holiday makers in the next apartment heard Madeline cry for 1.5 hours the previous night.
I find it strange that you will defend the mccanns to the hilt and then come on here asking questions that should be known to you by the way you defend them. It’s as if you are Gerry !

Are you disputing the phone records are wrong and no calls were deleted the night Madeline disappears?

v638sg7k1a92bx

hawkelady wrote: »

I’m not here to hold your hand ... also, the holiday makers in the next apartment heard Madeline cry for 1.5 hours the previous night.
I find it strange that you will defend the mccanns to the hilt and then come on here asking questions that should be known to you by the way you defend them. It’s as if you are Gerry !

Are you disputing the phone records are wrong and no calls were deleted the night Madeline disappears?

You've no idea what you are talking about, you're making unfounded assertions and can't back them up.

The McCann's never medicated their children and never admitted medicating their children.

Even if they did delete phone calls, phone records can be traced and how is this an indication of their guilt?

1. What phone calls did they delete
2. Who said they deleted phone calls
3. When did they delete them
4. Who said the medicated their children
5. What medication was used
6. etc
7. etc
8. etc

The reason I ask you these questions is to point out that when you start to apply even the slightest bit of logic to accusations around the McCann's, your whole "theory" falls to pieces.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

hawkelady wrote: »

I’m not here to hold your hand ... also, the holiday makers in the next apartment heard Madeline cry for 1.5 hours the previous night.
I find it strange that you will defend the mccanns to the hilt and then come on here asking questions that should be known to you by the way you defend them. It’s as if you are Gerry !

Are you disputing the phone records are wrong and no calls were deleted the night Madeline disappears?

100% Tickers posting non-stop and hasn't the slightest notion of any of the case detail.

v638sg7k1a92bx

OwlsZat wrote: »

100% Tickers posting non-stop and hasn't the slightest notion of any of the case detail.

You just can't provide backup for any of the unfounded assertions. I'm just drilling down into the details because the devil is always in the detail and when we ask the questions like the ones above, you can't provide answers.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

What phone calls did they delete?

Actually study the case files, or easier if people are talking about specific details just stick them into Google for yourself and read up on the subject. Your ruining the thread of those who have.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm

v638sg7k1a92bx

OwlsZat wrote: »

Actually study the case files, or easier if people are talking about specific details just stick them into Google for yourself and read up on the subject. Your ruining the thread of those who have.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm

No ruining involved, just calling people out on their factual inaccuracies. For example, there is no evidence, proof, corroboration, whatever you want to call it, that the McCann's medicated their children and yet this has been repeated ad nausea on this thread.

SusieBlue

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

OwlsZat wrote: »

Actually study the case files, or easier if people are talking about specific details just stick them into Google for yourself and read up on the subject. Your ruining the thread of those who have.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm

You're ruining the thread with your aggressiveness, shutting down any theory you disagree with.
Just cause someone believes something different to you, it doesn't make them wrong.

There is no proof of either scenario so your point is irrelevant. I see the case files in one light, you another.
Neither of us is wrong, as much as you would like to insist otherwise.

v638sg7k1a92bx

For all those conspiracy theorists who say that the UK investigation was scuppered from the start because they were restricted from investigating the McCann's and that their job was to find the McCann's innocent (an oxymoron in itself) because of the UK Government cover up.

Primarily what we sought to do from the beginning is try to bring everything back to the beginning, to zero if you like, and then reanalyse and reassess everything, accepting nothing!

DCI Andy Redwood on Crimewatch UK

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

1. How do you know the kids were medicated?

2. How do you know that they were crying for 1.5 hours the night before?

3. Cadaver dogs are not reliable evidence in their own right, the dogs could have been barking at anything. You would also have to believe that the body had decomposed to such an extent in approx. 2 hours that it left a scent that could be detected by dogs weeks later. Doesn't pass the sniff test to me, bodies don't decompose and stagnate that quickly.

1. The fact that the other two children slept though the entire ransacking of the apartment all the countless visitors, sirens, shouting and commotion and the fact that Kate continually checked the twins for to make sure they were breathing. Something she would be medically trailed to do as an anesthetist.

https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/10/fiona-payne-kate-mccann-kept-putting.html
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

2. The video contains a very impressive passage about a little episode that was reported by Mrs Fenn, the lady that lives in the apartment directly above apartment 5A, in her witness statement to the Polícia Judiciária, on the 20th of August 2007, as follows:

“She [Pamela Fenn] thus mentions that on Tuesday, the 1st of May 2007, and while alone at home, at around 10.30 p.m. she heard a child crying, that by the sound of it seemed to her to be coming from a young child and not from a two-year-old or younger baby. Simultaneously with the crying that lasted for about one hour and 15 minutes, and became increasingly more intense and expressive, the child screamed “daddy – daddy”, the deponent has no doubt that the crying came from the lower floor. At around 11.45 p.m., which is to say, one hour and fifteen after it started, she felt the parents arriving, but didn’t see them, nevertheless she heard the balcony door opening, which she noticed because she was quite worried, given the fact that the crying lasted for over an hour and increased steadily. When asked, she said that she didn’t know the reason for the crying, maybe a nightmare, or any other destabilising factor. She adds that as soon as the parents entered the house, the child stopped crying.” in Process 201/07.0 GALGS, pages 2412-2413

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

3. These Cadavar dogs and blood dogs are excellent, and have solved countless cases, even in Ireland.

http://laidbareblog.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-truth-of-dogs-mccann-case-and-more.html
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm


The only factual inaccuracy is your defense of a position without the slightest notion of the case.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

SusieBlue wrote: »

shutting down any theory you disagree with

Any chance you'll quote where I unfairly shut down a theory I disagreed with?

The only thing I've asked is that people use the word evidence correctly and stay close to the facts.

v638sg7k1a92bx

OwlsZat wrote: »

Any chance you'll quote where I unfairly shut down a theory I disagreed with?

The only thing I've asked is that people use the word evidence correctly and stay close to the facts.

You talk about "facts" and yet you just made the following statement

OwlsZat wrote: »

The children were medicated and left alone. The 1.5 hours Madeline cried the night before calling for her father. Show you, you are being lied to by Gerry and the coloring booking timelines. Obviously you don't mind.

With that in mind, can you please explain as a statement of fact

1. That the children were medicated
2. That the children cried for 1.5 hours calling for their father

Please and thank you

v638sg7k1a92bx

OwlsZat wrote: »

1. The fact that the other two children slept though the entire ransacking of the apartment all the countless visitors, sirens, shouting and commotion and the fact that Kate continually checked the twins for to make sure they were breathing. Something she would be medically trailed to do as an anesthetist.

https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/10/fiona-payne-kate-mccann-kept-putting.html
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

2. The video contains a very impressive passage about a little episode that was reported by Mrs Fenn, the lady that lives in the apartment directly above apartment 5A, in her witness statement to the Polícia Judiciária, on the 20th of August 2007, as follows:

“She [Pamela Fenn] thus mentions that on Tuesday, the 1st of May 2007, and while alone at home, at around 10.30 p.m. she heard a child crying, that by the sound of it seemed to her to be coming from a young child and not from a two-year-old or younger baby. Simultaneously with the crying that lasted for about one hour and 15 minutes, and became increasingly more intense and expressive, the child screamed “daddy – daddy”, the deponent has no doubt that the crying came from the lower floor. At around 11.45 p.m., which is to say, one hour and fifteen after it started, she felt the parents arriving, but didn’t see them, nevertheless she heard the balcony door opening, which she noticed because she was quite worried, given the fact that the crying lasted for over an hour and increased steadily. When asked, she said that she didn’t know the reason for the crying, maybe a nightmare, or any other destabilising factor. She adds that as soon as the parents entered the house, the child stopped crying.” in Process 201/07.0 GALGS, pages 2412-2413

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

3. These Cadavar dogs and blood dogs are excellent, and have solved countless cases, even in Ireland.

http://laidbareblog.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-truth-of-dogs-mccann-case-and-more.html
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm


The only factual inaccuracy is your defense of a position without the slightest notion of the case.

These are not facts, this is hearsay.

1. You have no proof that sleeping children were medicated

2. A woman who hear a crying child in a complex full of families with children means nothing.

3. Cadaver dogs and blood are excellent what exactly?

Still waiting

Boom_Bap

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Can you please move on from this tedious back and forth?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Can you please move on from this tedious back and forth?

Happy to move on but we need to call people out on some of the claims they are making.

For example, a neighbour hears a baby crying in the middle of the night and somehow this is some indication of guilt or suspicious activity.

The twins slept through the commotion of the night and all of a sudden this means the kids were medicated. Anyone who has kids or familiar with children will tell you that kids would sleep through a tornado.

The body was moved in the rental car three weeks after the disappearance while the world was watching them

Gerry McCann dumped the body at sea

The body was kept in a fridge

Cadaver dogs don't lie

They wrote their cover story down in a copy book

We have to ask the question as to what stage does empirical evidence and objectionable facts not matter to people anymore that they will just continue with these wild conspiracy theories and when you grill them on the intricate details i.e. when you ask them to explain the logistics as to how the McCann's could realistically conceal a dead body in a fridge for three weeks, then rent a car, move the body, dump it somewhere that they know it would never be found, in a foreign country, while the police and the world media are watching them, and the response you get it something along the lines of "oh well, they had local help".

Then when you ask them how they would organise something like disposing a body in a foreign country, they spin it into another conspiracy about the Tapas 7 and a pact of silence and how one of them was there before so they could have done it. Then when you ask them why somebody would concoct and maintain a cover story for 12 years and how difficult that would be etc etc, they say that there is some type of police or government cover up to maintain the original cover up.

Tomw86

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

Happy to move on but we need to call people out on some of the claims they are making.

For example, a neighbour hears a baby crying in the middle of the night and somehow this is some indication of guilt or suspicious activity.

The twins slept through the commotion of the night and all of a sudden this means the kids were medicated. Anyone who has kids or familiar with children will tell you that kids would sleep through a tornado.

The body was moved in the rental car three weeks after the disappearance while the world was watching them

Gerry McCann dumped the body at sea

The body was kept in a fridge

Cadaver dogs don't lie

They wrote their cover story down in a copy book

We have to ask the question as to what stage does empirical evidence and objectionable facts not matter to people anymore that they will just continue with these wild conspiracy theories and when you grill them on the intricate details i.e. when you ask them to explain the logistics as to how the McCann's could realistically conceal a dead body in a fridge for three weeks, then rent a car, move the body, dump it somewhere that they know it would never be found, in a foreign country, while the police and the world media are watching them, and the response you get it something along the lines of "oh well, they had local help".

Then when you ask them how they would organise something like disposing a body in a foreign country, they spin it into another conspiracy about the Tapas 7 and a pact of silence and how one of them was there before so they could have done it. Then when you ask them why somebody would concoct and maintain a cover story for 12 years and how difficult that would be etc etc, they say that there is some type of police or government cover up to maintain the original cover up.

These are all theories - they could have happened and could not have. peoples opinions on this vary.

The abduction is also a THEORY.

So before you start attacking everyone who disagrees with you, take a deep breath, maybe 2 and consider a more reasonable response. You are ruining the threat for everyone and coming across as pretty stupid while doing so as you are not familiar with the case and are jumping in two footed on what people are saying without reading responses correctly!

One example of this is people never said it had to be the body in the car - but rather an item of clothing/material which came in contact with the body. You seem oblivious to this and never picked up on.

Again only a THEORY (you should probably actually google the meaning of that word before responding)!

v638sg7k1a92bx

Tomw86 wrote: »

These are all theories - they could have happened and could not have. peoples opinions on this vary.

The abduction is also a THEORY.

So before you start attacking everyone who disagrees with you, take a deep breath, maybe 2 and consider a more reasonable response. You are ruining the threat for everyone and coming across as pretty stupid while doing so as you are not familiar with the case and are jumping in two footed on what people are saying without reading responses correctly!

One example of this is people never said it had to be the body in the car - but rather an item of clothing/material which came in contact with the body. You seem oblivious to this and never picked up on.

Again only a THEORY (you should probably actually google the meaning of that word before responding)!

What about an alien abduction, is that also a theory. Should we take all these theories seriously?

Tomw86

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

What about an alien abduction, is that also a theory. Should we take all these theories seriously?

Yes it is a theory and if you want to engage in that theory then fire ahead.

I don't believe in Aliens so you'll have to find someone else to argue with on that one...maybe a mirror?

gozunda

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

lol, you seem to have alot of experience in desperation, particularly when it comes to trying to suggest the parents and friends were involved in the disappearance.

The only desperation was that of parents trying to find their missing child, and on the flip side, the desperation of conspiracy theorists trying to suggest the McCann's are responsible by taking every word and action they made and try to wrench it out of context as if it was some indication of guilt.

Right you can quit with the personalisation rubbish while your at it.

At this point in time I personally back no single scenario. There are many many questions to be answered with regards to what actually went on that night. It remains that the parents and friends were the last people to see that child alive. Unfortunately as the case stands there are more questions than answers. This is a discussion forum and that's how it is. Deal with it.

The stupidity of assigning 'conspiracy theorists' to anyone who does not subscribe to your opinion is pathetically blinkered imo.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Tomw86 wrote: »

Yes it is a theory and if you want to engage in that theory then fire ahead.

I don't believe in Aliens so you'll have to find someone else to argue with on that one...maybe a mirror?

But that's my point. Some of the theories being put forward are just as plausible as an alien abduction and yet when theses theories are called out the reaction of the people purporting them is to dig their heels in even more and spin that narrative into an even more ridiculous theory.

The problem with these theories is that their intention is not one of genuine concern but rather to try at all costs to implicate the parents in the disappearance which is what Amaral did from the outset.

No matter what way we spin these theories, if we were to do the most basic walkthrough of anyone one of them, be it the Tapas 7, Gerry McCann, the cadaver dogs, the rental car and what that would actually entail to pull something like this off, they fall to pieces within the first few sentences which is why the UK Police and Portuguese police are pursuing an abduction as the most likely scenario but yet people on here will trawl over the same debunked concepts that serious police investigators have looked at in great detail and continue to push this agenda as if people on the internet are going to discover or unearth something that the police haven't already done.

gozunda

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

But that's my point. Some of the theories being put forward are just as plausible as an alien abduction and yet when theses theories are called out the reaction of the people purporting them is to dig their heels in even more and spin that narrative into an even more ridiculous theory.

The problem with these theories is that their intention is not one of genuine concern but rather to try at all costs to implicate the parents in the disappearance which is what Amaral did from the outset.

No matter what way we spin these theories, if we were to do the most basic walkthrough of anyone one of them, be it the Tapas 7, Gerry McCann, the cadaver dogs, the rental car and what that would actually entail to pull something like this off, they fall to pieces within the first few sentences which is why the UK Police and Portuguese police are pursuing an abduction as the most likely scenario but yet people on here will trawl over the same debunked concepts that serious police investigators have looked at in great detail and continue to push this agenda as if people on the internet are going to discover or unearth something that the police haven't already done.

So your role is to close down discussion you do not approve of - or deem implausible? Good luck with that.

A number of inaccurate points - the Portuguese police are not pursuing an 'abduction' theory

The Portuguese police (and not just Amaral) published their findings that they believed the child died accidentally.

The UK investigation has been limited in its scope since it first began. It has never even interviewed the last people to see the child alive. Iwhich is quite incredible tbh. So much for starting from scratch :rolleyes:

chicorytip

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote:

The problem with these theories is that their intention is not one of genuine concern but rather to try at all costs to implicate the parents in the disappearance which is what Amaral did from the outset.

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote:

No matter what way we spin these theories, if we were to do the most basic walkthrough of anyone one of them, be it the Tapas 7, Gerry McCann, the cadaver dogs, the rental car and what that would actually entail to pull something like this off, they fall to pieces within the first few sentences which is why the UK Police and Portuguese police are pursuing an abduction as the most likely scenario but yet people on here will trawl over the same debunked concepts that serious police investigators have looked at in great detail and continue to push this agenda as if people on the internet are going to discover or unearth something that the police haven't already done.

The abduction theory is clearly one that "falls to pieces within the first few sentences". We have evidence of this. The bedroom window and the roll down shutter which, as has been demonstrated in reconstructions, cannot be opened from the outside so therefore could not have been used as a point of entry by a kidnapper. The absence of fingerprints or other DNA on both the inside of the window and the inside of the shutter apart from just one - Kate McCanns. The complete absence of any similar material that could have belonged to an intruder in the room itself. The state of the bedroom as detectives first entered. It had what looked like a very carefully arranged appearance staged to make it appear as if an abduction had taken place. Kate Mc Cann's statement to the PJ and later re-enacted by her in a recorded reconstruction for TV that a strong gust of wind blown through the open bedroom window had caused the partially open door to almost slam in her face as she went to enter and check on the children. The weather reports for the exact period show that it was, in fact, a perfectly calm evening with no wind or gusts blowing.
Amaral has been vilified and destroyed professionally by the British political, police and journalistic establishment purely for carrying out his job in a diligent fashion. The word went out. The McCann's must be found innocent, whatever it takes.

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

chicorytip wrote: »

. The word went out. The McCann's must be found innocent, whatever it takes.

Who sent the word out and why?

gozunda

Something Else

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Who sent the word out and why?

As we seem to have entered into a Test Your Knowledge Quiz phase of the discussion - perhaps you would first answer a question I asked several pages back and as yet have received no answer...

gozunda wrote: »

First you might explain where you abstracted that very strange and bizarre commentary on the Gaspar police interviews

That any of that (in italics) frankly vicious misogyny can be attributed to a professional source is quite unbelievable.

Interestingly the source link you provide does NOT contain any of the commentary on said abstract. eg. 'Woman scorned' :rolleyes:

Can you present a reliable official link for where the detailed police man said that.

Would you be good enough to explain. Thanks.

chicorytip

Something Else

MonkieSocks wrote:

Who sent the word out and why?

British Intelligence (MI6) acting at the behest of it's political masters at the time i.e. senior cabinet members with the assistance of Leicstershire police and the Portuguese embassy in London.

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

chicorytip wrote: »

British Intelligence (MI6) acting at the behest of it's political masters at the time i.e. senior cabinet members with the assistance of Leicstershire police and the Portuguese embassy in London.

Thanks