Madeleine McCann

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chicorytip wrote: »

The body could have been removed and concealed by the parents before they raised the alarm. This could have been accomplished with the help of somebody local, already known to the couple who perhaps had access to a vacant property which contained a freezer. It's not clear whether their entire movements were being monitored by police during the period beginning three weeks after the disappearance when they were driving the hired car and staying in a rented villa. They were no longer formal suspects at that stage so it's unlikely. An opportunity to finally dispose of the corpse could have arisen.

So how would that pan out, call up the local body disposal company when you're on holidays???

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

chicorytip wrote: »

The body could have been removed and concealed by the parents before they raised the alarm. This could have been accomplished with the help of somebody local, already known to the couple who perhaps had access to a vacant property which contained a freezer. It's not clear whether their entire movements were being monitored by police during the period beginning three weeks after the disappearance when they were driving the hired car and staying in a rented villa. They were no longer formal suspects at that stage so it's unlikely. An opportunity to finally dispose of the corpse could have arisen.

The McCann's must be great at networking. Arrive on evening of 28th April - check - Local with freezer equipped vacant property located and suborned within 4 days - check; holiday sorted.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cnocbui wrote: »

The McCann's must be great at networking. Arrive on evening of 28th April - check - Local with freezer equipped vacant property located and suborned within 4 days - check; holiday sorted.

Is this really what you are going to hinge on for why they didn't do it? The body would have been so dam hard to find hide for 9 adults. They simply couldn't not have pulled this off. Eh really?

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

it's got nothing to do with hinges and everything to do with complexity and Occam's Razor favouring the abduction scenario.

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OwlsZat wrote: »

Is this really what you are going to hinge on for why they didn't do it? The body would have been so dam hard to find hide for 9 adults. They simply couldn't not have pulled this off. Eh really?

9 adults engaged in a conspiracy, none of whom have come forward after 12 years?

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

9 adults engaged in a conspiracy, none of whom have come forward after 12 years?

By their own admission, they engaged in a "pact of silence".

gozunda

Something Else

cnocbui wrote: »

it's got nothing to do with hinges and everything to do with complexity and Occam's Razor favouring the abduction scenario.

I'm not sure you know too much about Occam's razor tbh - as detailed earlier this theorises that simpler solutions are more likely to be correct than complex ones.

However Occam's razor would normally only be used to adjudicate between theories that have already passed theoretical scrutiny tests and are equally well-supported by evidence.

So far in this case neither of those criteria have been met in respect of any of the listed scenarios (abduction included) imo.

With regard to the postulated use of a freezer / fridge to help dispose of a body. Really cant understand how some are so completely focused on only this to the exclusion of everything else as if it proves definitely and shows that somehow an abduction happened - wtf?

Is such a scenario as incredible as the possibility that some abductor was able to run in between all the alleged checks by the parents etc grab the child and run out and not be seen and leave no trace? Yes it is. Are both still possible? Yes they are.

Not ruling out any possibilities and that's the point. At the present time the paucity of real information as to what happened that night means that they are all more or less unlikley and / or plausible imo.

Something Else

Hiding a body is not the impossible task that people on here seem to make out.
People were looking for a lost or abducted girl.
The McCanns were out on their own in the early hours of the morning on 4th May,
It’s not like there was absolutely no opportunity.

I do admit that it would be difficult to do.
It’s also difficult to abduct a child from an apartment that 3 adults had been inside in the space of 50 minutes, as well as several people on the street. And they left absolutely no evidence and nobody in the underworld knows a thing about it.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deleted User wrote: »

Hiding a body is not the impossible task that people on here seem to make out.
People were looking for a lost or abducted girl.
The McCanns were out on their own in the early hours of the morning on 4th May,
It’s not like there was absolutely no opportunity.

I do admit that it would be difficult to do.
It’s also difficult to abduct a child from an apartment that 3 adults had been inside in the space of 50 minutes, as well as several people on the street. And they left absolutely no evidence and nobody in the underworld knows a thing about it.

You have a funny idea of 'alone': The friends they were dining with, the nannys, several other staff from MW resort, then 9 GNR showed up, then the PJ. They were not just looking for a live girl, they searched through rubbish in bins and looked in drains for the possibility of a body.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

9 adults engaged in a conspiracy, none of whom have come forward after 12 years?

Who said they are all involved? I'd suggest 4 or them know and 5 have suspicions.

Like what if all 9 were involved. What would you expect? Inaccuracies in statements? Rejecting doing a reconstruction? Contradictions? Obvious lies?

We have all those things. It smacks of a cover up to the high heavens. The writing is so firmly on the wall. At this point it would be more outrageous if it wasn't a cover up.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hiding a body is not the impossible task that people on here seem to make out.
People were looking for a lost or abducted girl.
The McCanns were out on their own in the early hours of the morning on 4th May,
It’s not like there was absolutely no opportunity.

I do admit that it would be difficult to do.
It’s also difficult to abduct a child from an apartment that 3 adults had been inside in the space of 50 minutes, as well as several people on the street. And they left absolutely no evidence and nobody in the underworld knows a thing about it.

Don't assume a timeline of the death.

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maebee wrote: »

By their own admission, they engaged in a "pact of silence".

The McCanns kept saying "We'll leave no stone unturned" but their group kept their pact of silence and took no part in a re-construction.

"Pact of silence" - a 4 year old has disappeared, presumed abducted and her parents and friends chose to remain silent. Crazy.

When did they admit that? I'd be interested to see that.

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/03/madeleine-case-pact-of-silence.html

Boom_Bap

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Is it not a pact of silence towards the media?

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Is it not a pact of silence towards the media?

Exactly,

Plus

Judicial secrecy laws forbade them from divulging anything about the case to the general public.

It didn't however stop Goanco leaking info to the media.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cnocbui wrote: »

You have a funny idea of 'alone': The friends they were dining with, the nannys, several other staff from MW resort, then 9 GNR showed up, then the PJ. They were not just looking for a live girl, they searched through rubbish in bins and looked in drains for the possibility of a body.

Once again you are assuming the time of death. Please stop doing that.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Exactly,

Plus

Judicial secrecy laws forbade them from divulging anything about the case to the general public.

It didn't however stop Goanco leaking info to the media.

Did the judicial secrecy laws prevent them doing a reconstruction? No they didn't and under huge pressure from the public they did one. Not with the PJ as requested but with a UK based TV station. Then the inevitable happened and Jane contradicted the story, and hung Gerry out twice as a liar. She clearly didn't go over the notes well enough.

SusieBlue

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

OwlsZat wrote: »

Once again you are assuming the time of death. Please stop doing that.

What's with the attitude? Are you not ALSO assuming here? Just like the rest of us?
Its all mere speculation. You have no more idea what happened than the rest of us, stop trying to shut down reasonable lines of thought.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

SusieBlue wrote: »

What's with the attitude? Are you not ALSO assuming here? Just like the rest of us?
Its all mere speculation. You have no more idea what happened than the rest of us, stop trying to shut down reasonable lines of thought.

Its the same point repeated over and over which isnt a fact. They announced she was missing. That could be well off from when she died. So the idea of refusing a theory based off a non fact is ludicrous. The only way to advance everyones understanding is to stay to the facts. Most especially when shutting someone else down.

SusieBlue

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

OwlsZat wrote: »

Its the same point repeated and over which isnt a fact. They announced she was missing. That could be well off from when she died. So the idea of refusing a theory based off a non fact is ludicrous. The only way to advance everyones understanding is to stay to the facts. Most especially when shutting someone else down.

This whole thread is endless repetition, from both sides.
She was undisputedly alive and well up until 6pm. They sat down to dinner at 8:30pm.
If we are to believe they killed her, its reasonable to assume she died between 6pm and 8:30pm.
Now of course, they also could have killed her during their sporadic checks of the apartment between 8:30-10pm, but that requires even more mental gymnastics to rationalise.
Not impossible, but not very likely at all.

It isn't wild speculation to assume its most likely she died between 6-8:30pm if indeed her parents were responsible for her death.
I don't understand why you are trying to shut down the idea so fiercely.

gozunda

Something Else

MonkieSocks wrote: »

...

Judicial secrecy laws forbade them from divulging anything about the case to the general public.

It didn't however stop Goanco leaking info to the media.

Funny the same laws didn't stop them using the media for their own ends from the get go

When did he admit that? I'd be interested to see that.

chicorytip

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote:

So how would that pan out, call up the local body disposal company when you're on holidays???

cnocbui wrote:

The McCann's must be great at networking. Arrive on evening of 28th April - check - Local with freezer equipped vacant property located and suborned within 4 days - check; holiday sorted.

OwlsZat wrote:

Is this really what you are going to hinge on for why they didn't do it? The body would have been so dam hard to find hide for 9 adults. They simply couldn't not have pulled this off. Eh really?

It was David Payne who recommended Praia Da Luz and made arrangements for the entire group so he would have a good knowledge of the area and, presumably, would know English speaking locals. I think it may have been the McCann's first visit but, anyway, finding a burial location that could remain unearthed for ever might not be that difficult in this part of southern Portugal.
It would not require the skillset or techniques employed by the Sicilian mafia "disposal" units, for example.

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

OwlsZat wrote: »

Did the judicial secrecy laws prevent them doing a reconstruction? No they didn't and under huge pressure from the public they did one. Not with the PJ as requested but with a UK based TV station. Then the inevitable happened and Jane contradicted the story, and hung Gerry out twice as a liar. She clearly didn't go over the notes well enough.

So they did a reconstruction that would be viewed by the General Public on TV.

The are always contradictions in peoples memories of events.

If they were conspiring together, they would have rehearsed it, but they didn't.

Occam's Razor says they weren't in cahoots.



McCanns did appeal on TV to ask for help in their missing child, as people usually do in missing people cases

Doctor Groanco did reveal privileged and confidential info in an ongoing investigation to the Press

gozunda

Something Else

chicorytip wrote: »

It was David Payne who recommended Praia Da Luz and made arrangements for the entire group so he would have a good knowledge of the area and, presumably, would know English speaking locals. I think it may have been the McCann's first visit but, anyway, finding a burial location that could remain unearthed for ever might not be that difficult in this part of southern Portugal.
It would not require the skillset or techniques employed by the Sicilian mafia "disposal" units, for example.

Gerry had holidayed in the area previously on a 'golfing holiday afaik'. Plus the couple and others of the group went out running when there. It doesn't take a bunch of rocket scientists to figure out the geography of a relatively low density small seaside town tbh. Plus whoever was responsible for the disappearance of the child may just have been lucky and have got away with it to this day...

gozunda

Something Else

MonkieSocks wrote: »

So they did a reconstruction that would be viewed by the General Public on TV.The are always contradictions in peoples memories of events.If they were conspiring together, they rehearsed it, but they didn't.Occam's Razor says they weren't in cahoots.McCanns did appeal on TV to ask for help in their missing child, as people usually do in missing people cases

Doctor Goanco did reveal privilegedinfo to the Press

The McCanns et al ran to the media even when they were told not to do so.

Only Gerry and Jane Tanner got together for a TV programme to revisit the Tanner sighting. They couldnt agree on anything. Looks like the other party of that incident - Jez doesn't agree either. The group never returned to Portugal to do a proper reconstruction to help with the investigation.

There are so many contradictions and inconsistencies in their accounts - you could drive a bus through them. And it's not just some posters here saying that - the initial investigation also came to the same conclusion.

I reckon you need to study a bit more about occams razor before using it as some type of defence tbh

"Goanco"? I presume you mean Goncalo Amaral

Where does Goncalo Amaral admit that? I'd be interested to see that.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

OwlsZat wrote: »

Once again you are assuming the time of death. Please stop doing that.

I have never in 12 years assumed death. How about you stop making statements that have not even a passing resemblance to reality.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

OwlsZat wrote: »

Did the judicial secrecy laws prevent them doing a reconstruction? No they didn't and under huge pressure from the public they did one. Not with the PJ as requested but with a UK based TV station. Then the inevitable happened and Jane contradicted the story, and hung Gerry out twice as a liar. She clearly didn't go over the notes well enough.

Explain why the PJ didn't do a reconstruction while all relevant parties were still in PDL? Why did they wait almost a full year and after everyone relevant had returned to the UK before suggesting one? Why did they let the resort ship the two nannies off to Greece the next day?

RollieFingers

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Haven't looked in this thread in a while because it just goes round in circles, but are people actually saying that because the McCanns allegedly aired their car boot out, that that is a sign they killed their daughter? Or that they just happened to have some unknown local accomplice that they gave a call to help conceal and dispose of the body? And this local accomplice has never ever been traced? That is just outrageous.

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RollieFingers wrote: »

Haven't looked in this thread in a while because it just goes round in circles, but are people actually saying that because the McCanns allegedly aired their car boot out, that that is a sign they killed their daughter? Or that they just happened to have some unknown local accomplice that they gave a call to help conceal and dispose of the body? And this local accomplice has never ever been traced? That is just outrageous.

That amongst other things. Some of the suggestions are farcical i.e.
They had local help to dispose of the body

That Gerry McCann disposed of the body at sea and swam/rowed back in time for dinner at 8:30;

That there has been a pact of silence between the Tapas 7 for the past 12
years and not one has since come forward or caved under police questioning, leaving aside that it's extremely difficult for two people to keep a secret and virtually impossible for seven;

That the body was kept in a fridge for three weeks undetected;

That the McCann's moved the refrigerated body in a rental car while the world was watching them;

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

The point I'm making is that Madeline may have died much earlier in the night. Madeline last seen at 5.30. Could easily have been dead by 7 allowing loads of time to hide the body. There might even have enough time left over to reconvene in the apt and write out a version of events!

Can you honestly imagine your little girl goes missing so you sit down and write out an exact timeline of events on a colouring book? If it's the truth. Why does it need to be written down?

It needs to be written down because they needed a hard written version of events to reherse from. A version of events that didnt make them look like neglectful parents. They needed a script to regale to their friends and PR team during the night instead of going out looking. The exact thing you would do if you thought for a moment you had actually lost your daughter.


https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2014/11/02/when-was-madeleine-last-seen/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/crimerocket.com/2019/03/20/its-the-simplest-question-of-all-where-was-madeleine-mccann-last-seen-can-you-answer-it/amp/

https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/09/crying-shame.html?m=1