The left this, the right that..

Brian?

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Thanks, I appreciate your reply.
To address the bolded part. Immigration I understand, human beings are tribal and we don't like new people arriving into our village and stealing our jobs and womenfolk. We fear and hate anything and anyone who looks different, speaks different and has different customs. It’s simply instinct that we haven’t evolved out of yet.
Immigration is a challenge and it’s true that there has been rather a lot of it, but it is being used as a pawn by right wing parties to garner support, more on that below.
On political correctness, yes, very upsetting I can't call other races sp**s, n*****s, k***s, w***s or p****s and give a woman that grabs my fancy a good slap on the rear anymore. Oh the humanity! Next they'll be wanting acceptance of queers!
Poor economic performance. Well, if you recall that followed the BIGGEST financial crash since 1929. 2008 was brought to you courtesy of one George "Dubya" Bush. Now I think he might have been a Republican.
And his policies of loosening restrictions on Banks might have brought this crash about.
Incidentally, the Republicans also presided over the economic crash of 1929.
And Trump has just rolled back restrictions that should prevent such massive crashes, so I am willing to bet my hat that the next one will be on him.
It also remains to be seen if Mr Trump will manage 8 years of constant, sustainable growth.
So it is pretty well established that Republicans overheat the economy, which leads to massive crashes, which the Dems have to clean up and get blamed for.
On LGBT, if someone has a problem with that, they're the problem. They can grow up or fcuk off. What should the LGBT community do? Crawl back into the shadows?
On liberalism in general. If people are pissed off with an enlightened mindset, equal rights, fairness, equality and protecting the planet, I don't know what to say, other than "Fcuk Off".
On the knuckledragger thing. People who show up at AfD and Pegida rallies are just that. I will not move one iota from that position.
Your thinking on left wingers is also fixated on the very looney end of the spectrum.
Having said that, I would rather be surrounded by people who hold a demonstration about defining 17 genders for cats than with a bunch of thick-browed skinheads in bomber jackets and army boots that are showing off their Hitler salute and are singing the Horst Wessel Song. Those guys can kindly fcuk off and die. In fact I would rather Germany became a Muslim state than a Nazi state.
OK, these guys are the very, very edge of militant right-wingers, but to me the right in general holds very little attraction. And if you think my example is very outlandish, in Dresden and Zwickau it isn’t.
It's all about uniformity. White, Christian values, family, economy and, above all, the defense of these values against anyone who dares to be different.



To address that a little. It is now the same as it was 100 years ago. Except back then people could claim genuine hardship and not “boohoo, I can’t afford the latest iPhone, fcuking immigrants!”
AfD and Pegida use the same tactics as back then. “The world is in sh*t (no it isn’t) and if you vote for us, we will sort it out in 5 minutes! Because we are much more cleverer than ANYONE else in government!” And no matter what the question is, their answer is always the same. All dem immigants fault.
Back then the Nazis promised the exact same. Replace the word Muslim with Jew and you’re smack bang back a hundred years ago. Anti-Semitism didn’t start in the 30’s
How does this work? Well, there does seem to be a cruddy subsoil of disenfranchised oiks who have 2 major attributes. They are very angry and they are very stupid. Promise them nectar and ambrosia and you will get into power.
Here is the beauty of how that works: The people who promise them this paradise (I we can just get rid of all those damn brown people) do not give one solitary sh*t about them or their promises
Do you know how Hitler did it? He put the economy on a course of guaranteed financial ruin! The state started spending money it didn’t even remotely have to simulate a “miraculous” economic recovery. A lot of people are saying “why did Hitler go to war so early when the army wasn’t ready?” He had to! He basically plundered all the countries he invaded. The Jews were turned into subhumans and stripped of their rights, and much more importantly, their wealth and the invaded countries were plundered.
I abhor the fact that all this info is not just staring us in the face, but it’s also screaming into our face and slapping us and we STILL don’t listen!
If that isn’t stupid, I don’t know what is.
And why are intelligent, moderate people voting for those rat-catchers?
What the fcuk are they disenfranchised about? They keep shouting about how everything is sh*t and they are fed up, but apart from “bloody foreigners” they don’t offer anything positive or constructive.
If someone is unhappy with how things are, there at your fingertips is the greatest fcuking democracy the world has ever seen! (well, definitely not the American one) Anyone can lobby, go public and inform without fear of reprisal, start campaigns, demonstrate and even form their own political parties that will stand for what they believe in.
Why do people, if they’re not happy with the way things are, don’t do something positive and constructive?
Why do we not see new political parties that offer sensible, intelligent policies?
One could almost think that voters are massive idiots that will slap their fins together for whoever shouts the loudest and throws the most fisheads their way.
100 years of experience would support that point.
As for my mother’s generation, they are all uniformly scared sh*tless of the new right. They have seen and heard it all before, they would warn us if we just bothered our holes listening to them. They can see where this is all heading. They’re attitude is “well, thankfully I’ll be dead when this sh*t hits the fan”
Remember, Hitler and his merry gang of thugs where a looney fringe group at first, people shouted at them and threw stones at them on the street. Now watch some of those skinhead numbskulls march and shout slogans and throw salutes, it is an exact carbon copy.
It just seems that sometimes people get fed up, get off their arse and start trouble, because we as a primitive, half-evolved ape creature are inherently aggressive and we cannot stand peace and quiet for very long. Don’t tell me there is any other reason for Trump.
Because if this wasn’t the case, we would all work together to find intelligent solutions instead of blaming immigrants, the LGBT community or people who may want to save the planet. And phrases like “sticking it to the libtards” would not exist.

Great post.

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

Iran in particular was well on the right track before the yanks jammed the Shah back in.

Nope, not even close. The "Yanks" came later. It was more the British and the Russians back at the start of the 20th century. The last Shah's dad had taken over from the previous royal house, introduced major secular reforms, which his son continued and pursued further. Throughout these reforms were constantly resisted by the religious leaders and by a large proportion of the population. The Iranian revolution was an extremely popular one.

Before this becomes “blame the yanks”, the Soviet Union royally messed up a fairly secular Afghanistan.

That was more the British again and way before the Soviets got involved. Again the "fairly secular Afghanistan" was mostly confined to the cities and beyond was again resisted by the religious and tribal leaders. It took only the sniff of revolution to bring back burkas and stonings.

Lebanon was modern and liberal before its civil war and is returning that way.

Jesus these really are third hand thumbnail sketches. Lebanon was "modern and liberal" in brief bursts. In this case blame the French... After they fecked off they got into aggro with the newly formed Israel. That led to 100 odd 1000 refugees from the latter ending up in the place. The same Lebanon has lots of religions going on and often going at each other. Sunni, Shia and Christian being the big three. Beirut being reduced to rubble with 70's Mercs flying about spouting AK47's back in the day was one result. Multiculturalism, dontcha just love it...

Outside the Middle East you have Malaysia, a lovely spot. Christian, Taoist and Hindu minorities are very well integrated with the Muslim majority. My favourite country to visit, even during Ramadan.

Malaysia luckily took on much of the existing background Asian culture that helped tone down some of the Islamic stuff.

Turkey, is teetering on the edge but it’s not run by “mad mullahs”.

Eh... Turkey is increasingly fecked and we'll play watch this space and I near guarantee said mad mullahs will be taking over soon enough.

Jordan has a king, again, not too bad.

Egypt is a basket case. But it hasn’t fallen over yet.

Morocco is grand.

Tunisia ditto, after a rough few years. No “mad mullahs”, but I could be wrong.

Algeria is grand. I think.

Libya. A mess. I’ll give you that one.

It’s only really the Gulf States that are horror shows.

We could be here all night...

So loads of countries, same religion. Varying outcomes. Not that I have any time for religions or religious Tom Foolery. Uganda and the Netherlands are both Christian countries, do you fear Christianity?

Oh god, not this hoary old chestnut. The vast majority of Christian nations are democracies, with a consistent and increasing separation of church and state. Consistent over decades even centuries, post Enlightenment. Hell, Christianity as a religion from the very get go was built around the idea - if too often not the practice - of a church/state separation. From the founder's lips: My kingdom is not of this Earth/Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's. For the majority of pre reformation/enlightenment Europe the Church and State operated a two tier political system. European culture is steeped in the notion of separation and the notion of democracy. The degree of which is what varied. Even the twin notions of reformation/enlightenment are near alien to Islamic culture.

This is very different from what is found in Islam and from the very start. It was born, bred and codified as a theocracy under God. That church/state separation is a recently imposed from without notion and never lasts long, soon returning to mad mullahs and/or strongmen and kings. The "plenty of “modern” relaxed Muslim countries" you think of lasted for a decade or two at best. Set against the thousand years plus of anything but relaxed and it's a flash in the pan.

Consider this: Printing and gunpowder. Both those east Asian innovations came along the Silk Road, controlled for much of the way by Islamic cultures and nations. When "Christian" Europe got them they changed the cultural, intellectual and yes the physical maps. The Islamic world? The first printed Quran, their most culturally important book(like the Bible was for Europe and printed in the millions within decades of the printing press being invented) was printed in Russian in the 19th century, the first printed Quran in the Muslim world? Egypt, in the early 20th century.

That's an awful lot of cultural baggage and nonsense to overcome. I have no doubt that down the line it may well be overcome. The Middle East is the cradle of civilisation. All the early greats kicked off there. Back in the day, the Greeks were playing catch up. They're the same people, but the engrained culture is too bloody strong at the moment. And has been for so long.

Never, ever had a fascist system worked for its people.

I fully agree and said that.

Silentcorner

Brian? wrote: »

Great post.

It was a fairly foul mouthed rant loaded with insults and inaccuracies in equal measure, with a strong undercurrent of condescension, a perfect example of just how tolerant the left/liberals have become in fact...

Sweetemotion

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope, not even close.

Wibbed

Brian?

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope, not even close.

Nope. Completely accurate. This entire post was in broad strokes.

The "Yanks" came later. It was more the British and the Russians back at the start of the 20th century. The last Shah's dad had taken over from the previous royal house, introduced major secular reforms, which his son continued and pursued further. Throughout these reforms were constantly resisted by the religious leaders and by a large proportion of the population. The Iranian revolution was an extremely popular one.

I’m not going to document 1000s of years of Iran’s history in one post. Iran was a secular democracy in between Shah rule. The green revolution was popular because the Shah was so unpopular.

That was more the British again and way before the Soviets got involved. Again the "fairly secular Afghanistan" was mostly confined to the cities and beyond was again resisted by the religious and tribal leaders. It took only the sniff of revolution to bring back burkas and Stonings

I don’t really need the history lesson. Afghanistan was on the right path after being messed with by the Bristish, until the Soviets royally messed it up. You’re not really countering my point. So what if it was the cities, that’s where most of the people live.

Jesus these really are third hand thumbnail sketches. Lebanon was "modern and liberal" in brief bursts. In this case blame the French... After they fecked off they got into aggro with the newly formed Israel. That led to 100 odd 1000 refugees from the latter ending up in the place. The same Lebanon has lots of religions going on and often going at each other. Sunni, Shia and Christian being the big three. Beirut being reduced to rubble with 70's Mercs flying about spouting AK47's back in the day was one result. Multiculturalism, dontcha just love it...

I know all this. I’m not sure how you think this rebutts my point.

Malaysia luckily took on much of the existing background Asian culture that helped tone down some of the Islamic stuff.

That’s a massive over simplification. Malaysia had race riots in the 60s and poured huge resources into it never happening again.

Eh... Turkey is increasingly fecked and we'll play watch this space and I near guarantee said mad mullahs will be taking over soon enough.

Teetering on the edge. Ill guarantee you’re wrong.

We could be here all night...

Your choice to grandstand and pontificate horse.

Oh god, not this hoary old chestnut. The vast majority of Christian nations are democracies, with a consistent and increasing separation of church and state. Consistent over decades even centuries, post Enlightenment. Hell, Christianity as a religion from the very get go was built around the idea - if too often not the practice - of a church/state separation. From the founder's lips: My kingdom is not of this Earth/Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's. For the majority of pre reformation/enlightenment Europe the Church and State operated a two tier political system. European culture is steeped in the notion of separation and the notion of democracy. The degree of which is what varied. Even the twin notions of reformation/enlightenment are near alien to Islamic culture.

This is very different from what is found in Islam and from the very start. It was born, bred and codified as a theocracy under God. That church/state separation is a recently imposed from without notion and never lasts long, soon returning to mad mullahs and/or strongmen and kings. The "plenty of “modern” relaxed Muslim countries" you think of lasted for a decade or two at best. Set against the thousand years plus of anything but relaxed and it's a flash in the pan.

Consider this: Printing and gunpowder. Both those east Asian innovations came along the Silk Road, controlled for much of the way by Islamic cultures and nations. When "Christian" Europe got them they changed the cultural, intellectual and yes the physical maps. The Islamic world? The first printed Quran, their most culturally important book(like the Bible was for Europe and printed in the millions within decades of the printing press being invented) was printed in Russian in the 19th century, the first printed Quran in the Muslim world? Egypt, in the early 20th century.

That's an awful lot of cultural baggage and nonsense to overcome. I have no doubt that down the line it may well be overcome. The Middle East is the cradle of civilisation. All the early greats kicked off there. Back in the day, the Greeks were playing catch up. They're the same people, but the engrained culture is too bloody strong at the moment. And has been for so long.

I fully agree and said that.

So you’ve abandoned all hope for Muslim nations. Because some are bad. That’s essentially your point. You’re wrong

dr.fuzzenstein

Just wanted to clarify, I wasn't advocating turning Germany into a Muslim state, but I want Nazi Germany even less.
As for the left, I'd hang out with these people any day:



It's unbelievable just how scared and infuriated people are by a few vegans, drag Queens, environmentalists and women's rights advocates.

Deja Boo

OP forgot to add the Rightwings inexhaustible argument to their "right to bear arms" demands, regardless of the human cost.

...and their thirst for and preference to fund war, over human rights.

.

Brian?

Silentcorner wrote: »

It was a fairly foul mouthed rant loaded with insults and inaccuracies in equal measure, with a strong undercurrent of condescension, a perfect example of just how tolerant the left/liberals have become in fact...

I’d rather a foul mouthed, condescending post that’s accurate than a politely wrong post.

I do appreciate that you said left/liberals though. Rather than left liberals.

ELM327

This is an example of ridiculous "left/liberal" (wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings) pandering that popped up in my facebook feed this morning

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/29/dont-call-pregnant-women-expectant-mothers-might-offend-transgender/

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

I don’t really need the history lesson.

Clearly you do. You can't even get the "which western nation screwed over which Middle Eastern nation" right.

Afghanistan was on the right path after being messed with by the Bristish, until the Soviets royally messed it up.

It might be fun to look to this "right path" of yours. Smacks a bit of western cultural imperialism. But no matter, what went on in Afghanistan between the different factions in Afghanistan in the 20th century would take up pages of back and forth, but that "right path" you speak of had few enough footprints. At best it was an autocratic monarchy. A few lassies wearing short skirts in 60's Tehran is no judge.

You’re not really countering my point. So what if it was the cities, that’s where most of the people live.

Not in Afghanistan.

So you’ve abandoned all hope for Muslim nations. Because some are bad. That’s essentially your point. You’re wrong

Jaysus, Cicero would be proud of that riposte. Not. You completely avoided my points about the deep cultural and political differences going on and glossed over the bit where I said "I have no doubt that down the line [the cultural baggage and nonsense] may well be overcome.". I also didn't go down the emotive "abandon all hope" either. I did point out that the majority of the Islamic world is a deep well of cultural baggage and nonsense that doesn't square with Western democracies and has been for a very long time.

s7ryf3925pivug

ELM327 wrote: »

This is an example of ridiculous "left/liberal" (wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings) pandering that popped up in my facebook feed this morning

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/29/dont-call-pregnant-women-expectant-mothers-might-offend-transgender/

Yeah who do you know that thinks that way though? It's in the papers precisely because it's annoying and absurd and petty and provokes a reaction. That sort of nonsense does not define the left or liberals, no matter how frequently some people try to use it to.

WinnyThePoo

Also facebook gives you content related to what your most attracted to clicking on. So if your obsessed with stories like the one ELM posted. It's most likely you spend alot of time looking for that stuff yourself.

Zorya

Who wouldn't want to be aligned with the 'progressive' left as they lose control of their vowels? :rolleyes:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45810709

ELM327

Zorya wrote: »

Who wouldn't want to be aligned with the 'progressive' left as they lose control of their vowels? :rolleyes:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45810709

And their spelling.
"Spelled" is a derivative of "to spell".
"Spelt" is a grain.

ELM327

Corinne Handsome Joint wrote: »

Yeah who do you know that thinks that way though? It's in the papers precisely because it's annoying and absurd and petty and provokes a reaction. That sort of nonsense does not define the left or liberals, no matter how frequently some people try to use it to.

Well it defines a lot of "liberal/left" people I know indirectly.

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Also facebook gives you content related to what your most attracted to clicking on. So if your obsessed with stories like the one ELM posted. It's most likely you spend alot of time looking for that stuff yourself.

I found it in a group that laughs at this (or should that be ther) type of nonsense.

Danzy

Brian? wrote: »

Jaysus that’s a mad way of thinking. It’s going to take me a while to parse that one.

Here’s a start. There were plenty of “modern” relaxed Muslim countries in the Middle East before they were used as proxies in the Cold War. Iran in particular was well on the right track before the yanks jammed the Shah back in.

Before this becomes “blame the yanks”, the Soviet Union royally messed up a fairly secular Afghanistan.

Lebanon was modern and liberal before its civil war and is returning that way.

Outside the Middle East you have Malaysia, a lovely spot. Christian, Taoist and Hindu minorities are very well integrated with the Muslim majority. My favourite country to visit, even during Ramadan.

Turkey, is teetering on the edge but it’s not run by “mad mullahs”.

Jordan has a king, again, not too bad.

Egypt is a basket case. But it hasn’t fallen over yet.

Morocco is grand.

Tunisia ditto, after a rough few years. No “mad mullahs”, but I could be wrong.

Algeria is grand. I think.

Libya. A mess. I’ll give you that one.

It’s only really the Gulf States that are horror shows.

So loads of countries, same religion. Varying outcomes. Not that I have any time for religions or religious Tom Foolery. Uganda and the Netherlands are both Christian countries, do you fear Christianity?

Never, ever had a fascist system worked for its people.

Many of those countries make Franco's Spain seem open.

Outside if the cold war the Islamic world has been undergoing a religious revival for nearly 90 years.

Roger Hassenforder

ELM327 wrote: »

And their spelling.
"Spelled" is a derivative of "to spell".
"Spelt" is a grain.

Not so fast....
"Spelt" is also acceptable!

ELM327

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Not so fast....
"Spelt" is also acceptable!

Only in British English and only because of mass acceptance of initial incorrect usage

Brian?

Wibbs wrote: »

Clearly you do. You can't even get the "which western nation screwed over which Middle Eastern nation" right.

I’m well aware of the history of Afghanistan. It was screwed over so many times it’s a horror show. Afghanistan was on the right path towards a more secular society before the Russians interfered and decided to make it the lastest Cold War battle ground.

Like most countries in Africa and Asia it suffered terribly in the immediate post colonial era.

It might be fun to look to this "right path" of yours. Smacks a bit of western cultural imperialism.

Ha. That’s first class irony. You’re painting all Islamic nations with the same brush, at the mercy of mad mullahs, and accusing me of “western cultural imperialism”

But no matter, what went on in Afghanistan between the different factions in Afghanistan in the 20th century would take up pages of back and forth, but that "right path" you speak of had few enough footprints. At best it was an autocratic monarchy. A few lassies wearing short skirts in 60's Tehran is no judge. Not in Afghanistan.

Actually yes. In Kabul. I think you may need a history lesson.

Jaysus, Cicero would be proud of that riposte.

Cicero would have actually. He understood that a lengthy argument wasn’t always needed to make a point. Cicero was a great orator and writer, he didn’t hand out one sided history lessons on the internet.

Not. You completely avoided my points about the deep cultural and political differences going on and glossed over the bit where I said "I have no doubt that down the line [the cultural baggage and nonsense] may well be overcome.". I also didn't go down the emotive "abandon all hope" either. I did point out that the majority of the Islamic world is a deep well of cultural baggage and nonsense that doesn't square with Western democracies and has been for a very long time.

I didn’t avoid your point. I think you’ll find you avoided mine. You did a little hand waving about “Asian culture” in relation to Malaysia and completely ignored every other country I mentioned that countered your initial point. You’re waffling on about cultural baggage and ignoring reality in many modern Islamic nations.

Let’s remember where this started. Someonene said they’d rather live in an Islamic country that one run by Nazis. You called that naive.

You’re also ignoring the evidence of Africa which is right in front of your nose. Absolute basket case, because of their colonial past not because of religious affiliation. Which was why I brought Uganda up.

Fundamentalist religious believers don’t square well with western values, full stop.

Brian?

ELM327 wrote: »

This is an example of ridiculous "left/liberal" (wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings) pandering that popped up in my facebook feed this morning

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/29/dont-call-pregnant-women-expectant-mothers-might-offend-transgender/

Thanks for changing to left/liberal. It’s nice to see the point conceded quietly.

ELM327

Brian? wrote: »

Thanks for changing to left/liberal. It’s nice to see the point conceded quietly.

I'm unsure if you have noticed the dripping sarcasm but I'm going to assume given your previous posts that you haven't.

Brian?

Danzy wrote: »

Many of those countries make Franco's Spain seem open.

Outside if the cold war the Islamic world has been undergoing a religious revival for nearly 90 years.

It ebbs and flows. We spend so much time reading about the Middle East, it’s hard to see that.

Saudi Arabia is the progenitor of the most hateful ideology of all, Wahhabism, but even there the laws are staring to slowly liberalise. Slowly, at a snails pace.

Brian?

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm unsure if you have noticed the dripping sarcasm but I'm going to assume given your previous posts that you haven't.

Ah now. There’s no need for that. I was playing the double sarcasm card.

ELM327

Plenty of need for it.
You see today I identify as someone who doesn't care for your liberal agenda.
Who knows, tomorrow I may identify as Hilary Clinton. Or a stone. I thank the lefties for that personal freedom.

From now on I demand that you pander to my need for a personal pronoun of "Zhe" to indicate my general gender & species apathy

Brian?

ELM327 wrote: »

Plenty of need for it.
You see today I identify as someone who doesn't care for your liberal agenda.
Who knows, tomorrow I may identify as Hilary Clinton. Or a stone. I thank the lefties for that personal freedom.

From now on I demand that you pander to my need for a personal pronoun of "Zhe" to indicate my general gender & species apathy

I don't have a liberal agenda. I'm not a liberal, I've explained that already.

You can identify as anything you want. Doesn't bother me, see how easy that is?

jmayo

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

To address that a little. It is now the same as it was 100 years ago. Except back then people could claim genuine hardship and not “boohoo, I can’t afford the latest iPhone, fcuking immigrants!”
AfD and Pegida use the same tactics as back then. “The world is in sh*t (no it isn’t) and if you vote for us, we will sort it out in 5 minutes! Because we are much more cleverer than ANYONE else in government!” And no matter what the question is, their answer is always the same. All dem immigants fault.
Back then the Nazis promised the exact same. Replace the word Muslim with Jew and you’re smack bang back a hundred years ago. Anti-Semitism didn’t start in the 30’s
How does this work? Well, there does seem to be a cruddy subsoil of disenfranchised oiks who have 2 major attributes. They are very angry and they are very stupid. Promise them nectar and ambrosia and you will get into power.

Hitler didn't just get into power based on oiks as you term them, unless of course you also term industrialists, professionals, middle class as oiks.
And before you go off on tirades about uneducated oiks being the worse racists or such, look up how many of the top people involved in dreaming up the haulocaust had third level education to a very high level and came from reasonably privileged backgrounds.

For instance look up who led the Einsatzgruppen and who was at the Wannsee conference.

This is the problem with your mindset you immediately see anyone that doesn't agree with you as an oik and dismiss them.

Problem is by the time you have copped on that a lot of them are far from oiks you are fooked, and so is entire society.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Here is the beauty of how that works: The people who promise them this paradise (I we can just get rid of all those damn brown people) do not give one solitary sh*t about them or their promises
Do you know how Hitler did it? He put the economy on a course of guaranteed financial ruin! The state started spending money it didn’t even remotely have to simulate a “miraculous” economic recovery. A lot of people are saying “why did Hitler go to war so early when the army wasn’t ready?” He had to! He basically plundered all the countries he invaded. The Jews were turned into subhumans and stripped of their rights, and much more importantly, their wealth and the invaded countries were plundered.

He wasn't the first to start that, the Roman Empire was built on conquest. It had to continually add to it to keep the army going, which in turned ensured the survival of the empire.


A lot of people in the western world are facing massive problems due to globalisation and on the horizon automation.
And they see some of the politicians who were supposed to represent them offer platitudes about smart economies, higher value jobs whilst at the same time offering increased immigration for those who will offer even more competition.
And to top it off those same politicians are often arguing about what is gender, or demanding preferential treatment, no not equality, for some minority or other.

People get pis*ed off and even though the only one appearing to listen is a gobshyte and a liar, they will still get a lot of support often just to stick it to the establishment.
Of course there will be some that will agree with and wholeheartedly support the cackeyed, but I believe it is far from the case with all the so called supporters.

Ever notice how Irish have done protest votes in certain referendums or by elections ?

Wibbs

Brian? wrote: »

I’m well aware of the history of Afghanistan. It was screwed over so many times it’s a horror show. Afghanistan was on the right path towards a more secular society before the Russians interfered and decided to make it the lastest Cold War battle ground.

No, it wasn't. You can keep repeating this stuff, but it does not make it close to accurate.

Ha. That’s first class irony. You’re painting all Islamic nations with the same brush, at the mercy of mad mullahs, and accusing me of “western cultural imperialism”

Again you

---

country mile

---

point. Regardless, answer me this simple question if you can: In the last hundred years what has been the trajectory of the majority of Islamic nations as far as secularisation goes? In the last hundred years what has been the trajectory of the majority of Christian nations on the same path?

Cicero would have actually. He understood that a lengthy argument wasn’t always needed to make a point. Cicero was a great orator and writer, he didn’t hand out one sided history lessons on the internet.

Remove the internet part and you'll find - if you've ever read his output beyond bite sized wiki quotes - he was only too happy to hand out one sided history lessons. Usually ones that featured him as the hero.

I didn’t avoid your point. I think you’ll find you avoided mine. You did a little hand waving about “Asian culture” in relation to Malaysia and completely ignored every other country I mentioned that countered your initial point.

Because they quite simply didn't.

You’re waffling on about cultural baggage and ignoring reality in many modern Islamic nations.

Again answer me this simple question if you can: In the last hundred years what has been the trajectory of the majority of Islamic nations as far as secularisation goes?

Let’s remember where this started. Someonene said they’d rather live in an Islamic country that one run by Nazis. You called that naive.

A position I would still hold and for the reasons I gave.

You’re also ignoring the evidence of Africa which is right in front of your nose. Absolute basket case, because of their colonial past not because of religious affiliation. Which was why I brought Uganda up.

Yep it's all Whitey's fault. Doesn't quite explain Ethiopia which was never colonised. Doesn't explain how European colonies in Asia didn't end up as basket cases.

Fundamentalist religious believers don’t square well with western values, full stop.

In the pantheon of fundamentalist nations, how high in the ranking is Christianity, or buddhism, or Hinduism?

Wibbs

jmayo wrote: »

Hitler didn't just get into power based on oiks as you term them, unless of course you also term industrialists, professionals, middle class as oiks.
And before you go off on tirades about uneducated oiks being the worse racists or such, look up how many of the top people involved in dreaming up the haulocaust had third level education to a very high level and came from reasonably privileged backgrounds.

For instance look up who led the Einsatzgruppen and who was at the Wannsee conference.

This is the problem with your mindset you immediately see anyone that doesn't agree with you as an oik and dismiss them.

Problem is by the time you have copped on that a lot of them are far from oiks you are fooked, and so is entire society.

Unfortunately all too true. The same Nazi's were seen as a minor league joke by the German Left and Centre and described as mindless uneducated thugs. Until they were no longer a joke.

jmayo

Brian? wrote: »

Jaysus that’s a mad way of thinking. It’s going to take me a while to parse that one.

Here’s a start. There were plenty of “modern” relaxed Muslim countries in the Middle East before they were used as proxies in the Cold War. Iran in particular was well on the right track before the yanks jammed the Shah back in.

I would love to know your definition of modern and relaxed ?

Brian? wrote: »

Before this becomes “blame the yanks”, the Soviet Union royally messed up a fairly secular Afghanistan.

Ehh as Wibbs said it was in the likes of Kabul, but in the likes of deepest Helmand province not so much.
Much like modern Pakistan for instance.

AFAIK the Soviets invaded to prop up the communist puppet regime, which was the secularist, that was fighting insurrection and increased pressure form islamists.

The Politburo claimed that by overthrowing the leader Amin, they would ease the pace of the communist revolution and thereby protect the communist regime from collapsing due to its domestic unpopularity and the increasing threat of Islamist and Western forces.
Of course it could also have lot to do with protecting it's southern borders from a collapsing proxy state and the chance of an islamist backed US state appearing.

After the invasion the Afghans showed their usual trait of not tolerating outsiders and with much help from US and it's proxies set about dragging the USSR into a war they could never win.

The thing is the US helped create an islamist monster that gained confidence after the ultimate destruction of a western super power.

The result was much the same as to how Asians reacted upon seeing the Western empires and superpowers get their asses handed to them by the Japanese.

Brian? wrote: »

Lebanon was modern and liberal before its civil war and is returning that way.

Outside the Middle East you have Malaysia, a lovely spot. Christian, Taoist and Hindu minorities are very well integrated with the Muslim majority. My favourite country to visit, even during Ramadan.

Turkey, is teetering on the edge but it’s not run by “mad mullahs”.

Jordan has a king, again, not too bad.

Egypt is a basket case. But it hasn’t fallen over yet.

Morocco is grand.

So long as you are not a journalist, living in Western Sahara, aren't a young girl in domestic service and are not proselytizing for religions other than Islam.
The truth though is but for the royal regime and some of these dodgy human rights, it would probably turn into another right wing islamist state, with even worse human rights, much like nearly happened in Egypt.

Brian? wrote: »

Tunisia ditto, after a rough few years. No “mad mullahs”, but I could be wrong.

Just watch out for the beaches with the ISIS supporters.

Brian? wrote: »

Algeria is grand. I think.

Yeah right.
Who could not love the law that a wife has to provide medical confirmation that they have been incapacitated for at least 15 days due to abuse by their husbands before they can file charges. :rolleyes:

Brian? wrote: »

Libya. A mess. I’ll give you that one.

It’s only really the Gulf States that are horror shows.

So loads of countries, same religion. Varying outcomes. Not that I have any time for religions or religious Tom Foolery. Uganda and the Netherlands are both Christian countries, do you fear Christianity?

Never, ever had a fascist system worked for its people.

Ah yes the go to example of Uganda.
10 or 20 islamic states are varying degrees of shtyeholes with very poor rights for minorities and women, but there is always Uganda and the 70 odd members of the Westboro Baptist Church.

dr.fuzzenstein

Wibbs wrote: »

Unfortunately all too true. The same Nazi's were seen as a minor league joke by the German Left and Centre and described as mindless uneducated thugs. Until they were no longer a joke.

It's kind of my point. AfD and Pegida work by the same principle.
You just need a mantra.
"We need to do something, our country is under attack by (insert ethnic group of your (dis)liking here)! The country is in tatters and only we know how to fix it! Vote for us and we'll have this mess sorted pronto! And we'll get rid of a few people we don't like along the way"
No actual fixes are presented, other than blaming migrants or minority group.
This is nothing but a cynical ploy to garner votes.
I never said the right wing parties where stupid, it's more the right wing voters that are the problem, because they keep bying the same snakeoil and utter Horsescutter over and over again.

If you just stand before a group of people, puff yourself up and address the them in a loud, authoratiarian voice, oozing self-confience and keep repeating the above mantra over and over again, you WILL get votes.
People don't like to think for themselves. They just want someone to stand in front of them and deliver easy answers and scapegoats.

People keep falling for this sh*t over and over again. It's not just stupidity, it's (by definition) madness.