Travellers want a state apology

Vincent Vega

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Are you claiming that schools, as policy, discriminate against travellers?

I'm not.
Growing up I was advised to keep away from the Traveller kids, to not let them play with us, to not invite them to birthday parties etc.

And I can't imagine I was the only one.

byhookorbycrook

Vincent Vega wrote: »

I'm not.
Growing up I was advised to keep away from the Traveller kids, to not let them play with us, to not invite them to birthday parties etc.

And I can't imagine I was the only one.

By who?

NIMAN

Vincent Vega wrote: »

Having spent a number of years working in a Traveller community organisation, I've gotta say that every time the ever predictable anti-Traveller circle jerk thread pops up I find it so disheartening that I struggle to read through it.

First off, I won't deny that there are MAJOR issues both within the community itself and their interactions with the settled community. Children born into the community have fortune or misfortune of having this cross to bear from the off, and little choice over whether to carry it or not.
Traveller identity may as well be an X tattooed on their head.

It's obvious that plenty of people here have had negative experiences with individual Travellers, but I would bet that the majority would also avoid all interaction with or even prefer to ignore the existence of Travellers unless they are the ones forcing contact.
I think this skews peoples perception somewhat, as they can only relate stories of the time the Traveller engaged with them for a specific reason, and rarely of any form of meaningful or even everyday interaction that wasn't either transactional or disturbance based.

I've found there to be plenty of kind hearted and good minded people within the community, who surprisingly when treated as a human being, listened to, acknowledged, or simply shown the minimum of respect tend to respond in a similar fashion.

I'm not going to try to excuse the many issues people have had with Travellers, but I really wish people would put some thought into how their troubled existence within our society has come about.

And as opposed to the straight out bigotry and mud slinging seen in every second post here, which let be honest, pretty much only helps to further the rift, to try and at least think about some form of compassionate approach to resolving the issues between us and them.

As it stands, to even identify as a Traveller pretty much makes you a pariah. It doesn't matter if you're a good or bad person. Barely anybody will want anything to do with you unless you're making a big enough fuss to be heard.

It may help to imagine this from a child's perspective, going to school and experiencing the effects of it, and then going home to be reminded that that's just how it is. And so the cycle continues.

Do you think that maybe the traveller community could try to do more to help themselves become more accepted?

From the outside it looks like they are doing next to nothing to change peoples perception of them.

The stats don't lie re: crime figures and amount of them in prison or with criminal records.

Perhaps it needs one of their generations to stand up and say enough is enough. We aren't going to live the life of our parents. We are going to get jobs, get our kids educated, live within the laws of the land, not race horses down motorways, not kill each other at social functions..... etc.

As much as there is prejudice against them, they have the ability in their own hands to make positive changes that will be seen within a generation or two.

Vincent Vega

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

By who?

Parents.

It wasn't a comment on systemic discrimination, but on how early interactions between settled and traveller children, and their parents reinforcement help to shape both cultures prejudices.

It was not uncommon for the traveller child in our class to be almost completely excluded in the schoolyard.

freshpopcorn

I live out side a town in Cork.
I get to see a mix of town people and country people's attitude to travellers and various groups.
Back in the 2000's when all the Eastern Europeans came to Ireland. Lots of people were sceptical of them. They wouldn't really would have being trusted.
However they've really gained people's trust. I see people who use them for odd job, go to their garage to get the car fixed, farmers taking them on etc. They'd be involved in community groups and would be friends with various people.
It would be similar with gay people. They'd have had very little time for them in the past and would have being homophobic but now they'd think nothing of a gay couple or voting yes for same sex marriage.
So it's not like you are dealing with very unaccepting people or people who won't change their minds but these people would have very little time for people in the travelling community due to being scalded in the past.

Wheeliebin30

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I live out side a town in Cork.
I get to see a mix of town people and country people's attitude to travellers and various groups.
Back in the 2000's when all the Eastern Europeans came to Ireland. Lots of people were sceptical of them. They wouldn't really would have being trusted.
However they've really gained people's trust. I see people who use them for odd job, go to their garage to get the car fixed, farmers taking them on etc. They'd be involved in community groups and would be friends with various people.
It would be similar with gay people. They'd have had very little time for them in the past and would have being homophobic but now they'd think nothing of a gay couple or voting yes for same sex marriage.
So it's not like you are dealing with very unaccepting people or people who won't change their minds but these people would have very little time for people in the travelling community due to being scalded in the past.

Excellent point, fair play.

freshpopcorn

One thing is also say was the traveller lads in my primary school class weren't much trouble apart from the odd thing.
They were never excluded from things and the teachers always did their best and they nearly always had settled friends to play with in the yard. It wasn't how John Connors described school.
However they never went on school trips or would go to a party if they were invited.
However once they went into secondary school they just stopped going no matter what people tried.

Vincent Vega

NIMAN wrote: »

Do you think that maybe the traveller community could try to do more to help themselves become more accepted?

From the outside it looks like they are doing next to nothing to change peoples perception of them.

The stats don't lie re: crime figures and amount of them in prison or with criminal records.

Perhaps it needs one of their generations to stand up and say enough is enough. We aren't going to live the life of our parents. We are going to get jobs, get our kids educated, live within the laws of the land, not race horses down motorways, not kill each other at social functions..... etc.

As much as there is prejudice against them, they have the ability in their own hands to make positive changes that will be seen within a generation or two.

And what do you know about efforts within the community to bring this about? At a community level there is certainly some progress being made.

The problem with changing settled peoples perception is that it would involve a degree of interaction, interaction which I highly doubt the majority of settled people I've ever met would be even the slightest bit open to.

It's not such a black and white, buck stops here situation as you try to imagine it, and any change is going to be extremely gradual and fraught with issues that need to be ironed out.

All this 'we are going to...' sounds well enough, but try to consider it from the perspective of somebody caught in that position, trying to cut themselves off from the only world they have ever known, the only world they have ever felt a part of or been accepted in.
Even at that it's a fúcking daunting prospect, leaving it all behind. And for what? To attempt to integrate into a society that wants nothing to do with you, based on your cultural identity.
That said, there are plenty that are attempting to do this.
To paint it as the easy and obvious choice though is pretty absurd.

As I said before, there are many issues, disproportionate amount of criminality being one, I would not deny that.
But to believe that these issues are solely rooted in and a product of 'Traveller culture' exclusively, and not the outcome of a far more complex and troubled history involving the rest of society is both a fairly over simplistic and popular reading.

Wibbs

I do hear what you're saying VV, but it needs to be a two way street.

Vincent Vega wrote: »

To attempt to integrate into a society that wants nothing to do with you, based on your cultural identity.

or what one's cultural identity has come to represent in the direct experience of the common mind. Those "settled" Travellers I referenced earlier that I have known told me on a few occasions that because they stopped living in caravans and entered Irish society they got some stick from relatives and friends in that community. Some reactions were quite nasty. These were folks who had various cultural items and stories and memories from their past in their houses and thoughts(and were very Catholic, like 1950's Irish Catholic), but were most definitely seen as sell outs, uppity "Uncle Toms" as it were. Finishing second level, even going on to third and not being up the spout at 16 was apparently deemed dubious.

Now I am quite happy to admit I'm an ardent culturist. Quiet simply I see some cultures as better overall and others as worse overall. Shitty cultures overall are one thing, at arms length, but when shitty cultures butt up against and affect more stable, and yes, better cultures and by doing so affect them negatively, never mind affect those within said cultures negatively, I become even more culturist.

Sassygirl1999

Travellers of Ireland , I apologize to you on behalf of boards

Rikand

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

Travellers of Ireland , I apologize to you on behalf of boards

Would ya g'way outta that

Sassygirl1999

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

Travellers of Ireland , I apologize to you on behalf of boards

Peddling such drivel, you'd make an ideal spokesperson for Pavee Point.

NIMAN

Vincent Vega wrote: »

And what do you know about efforts within the community to bring this about? At a community level there is certainly some progress being made.

The problem with changing settled peoples perception is that it would involve a degree of interaction, interaction which I highly doubt the majority of settled people I've ever met would be even the slightest bit open to.

It's not such a black and white, buck stops here situation as you try to imagine it, and any change is going to be extremely gradual and fraught with issues that need to be ironed out.

All this 'we are going to...' sounds well enough, but try to consider it from the perspective of somebody caught in that position, trying to cut themselves off from the only world they have ever known, the only world they have ever felt a part of or been accepted in.
Even at that it's a fúcking daunting prospect, leaving it all behind. And for what? To attempt to integrate into a society that wants nothing to do with you, based on your cultural identity.
That said, there are plenty that are attempting to do this.
To paint it as the easy and obvious choice though is pretty absurd.

As I said before, there are many issues, disproportionate amount of criminality being one, I would not deny that.
But to believe that these issues are solely rooted in and a product of 'Traveller culture' exclusively, and not the outcome of a far more complex and troubled history involving the rest of society is both a fairly over simplistic and popular reading.

Can I ask you, as someone who has dealings with the traveller community, if there are any strong leaders in it that are trying to do what I suggest?

If they are to change, to reduce their crime figures, complete their educations, stop getting pregnant at 16, hold down careers etc, then they need strong voices to steer them.

The only voices I ever hear representing them are that John Connors bloke and Pavee Point, but imho these 2 voices are very negative and are doing more harm than good.

I would have thought that as the generations pass and we move into new times as a nation, there might have been more people coming to the fore to try to change their lot in life?

NIMAN

I mentioned him, and from what I can see, he's a devisive character, the complete opposite of what his community needs.

Vincent Vega

Wibbs wrote: »

I do hear what you're saying VV, but it needs to be a two way street.

Vincent Vega wrote: »

To attempt to integrate into a society that wants nothing to do with you, based on your cultural identity.

or what one's cultural identity has come to represent in the direct experience of the common mind. Those "settled" Travellers I referenced earlier that I have known told me on a few occasions that because they stopped living in caravans and entered Irish society they got some stick from relatives and friends in that community. Some reactions were quite nasty. These were folks who had various cultural items and stories and memories from their past in their houses and thoughts(and were very Catholic, like 1950's Irish Catholic), but were most definitely seen as sell outs, uppity "Uncle Toms" as it were. Finishing second level, even going on to third and not being up the spout at 16 was apparently deemed dubious.

Now I am quite happy to admit I'm an ardent culturist. Quiet simply I see some cultures as better overall and others as worse overall. Shitty cultures overall are one thing, at arms length, but when shitty cultures butt up against and affect more stable, and yes, better cultures and by doing so affect them negatively, never mind affect those within said cultures negatively, I become even more culturist.

I'd say it's questionable to suggest that the majority of sentiment comes from direct experience.

I would argue that it's predominantly influenced by anecdote which is in turn part product of one-sided media focus. A good Traveller story simply doesn't fit with or reinforce peoples confirmation biases enough to get a second look or achieve anywhere near as much circulation.

As I said before, it doesn't seem likely that the majority of people would interact with Travellers in an everyday getting to know you manner, so stories of Traveller interaction tend to come primarily in the form of incidents.

The issues you mention between Travellers turned settled-Travellers and other Travellers rings true.
It does seem to create a lot of tension and division within the community and I'd see it as one of the major obstacles in the road ahead.

It shouldn't come as much of a surprise though, that a person or people that choose to relinquish their identity are met with hostility from some of those who wish to retain it.
That would be the same across any culture, and is certainly not confined to Travellers.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

I mentioned him, and from what I can see, he's a devisive character, the complete opposite of what his community needs.

He's typical of what they have to be honest. Empty vessels

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

Do you think that maybe the traveller community could try to do more to help themselves become more accepted?

From the outside it looks like they are doing next to nothing to change peoples perception of them.

The stats don't lie re: crime figures and amount of them in prison or with criminal records.

Perhaps it needs one of their generations to stand up and say enough is enough. We aren't going to live the life of our parents. We are going to get jobs, get our kids educated, live within the laws of the land, not race horses down motorways, not kill each other at social functions..... etc.

As much as there is prejudice against them, they have the ability in their own hands to make positive changes that will be seen within a generation or two.

Every so often i come across a common sense post on boards that fills my heart with glee.

Rikand

NIMAN wrote: »

I mentioned him, and from what I can see, he's a devisive character, the complete opposite of what his community needs.

John Connors

Carsanal

John have you seen this

Carsanal

Remove comment. It was a test message to John.

NIMAN

I'll tell you another thing they could do, stop holding the likes of Margaret Cash up as some sort of model traveller, a great example to all. She's not.

She is the complete opposite imho, but perhaps that just makes me a racist or bigot?

Signore Fancy Pants

Carsanal wrote: »

Remove comment. It was a test message to John.

LOL

c.p.w.g.w

Sassygirl1999 wrote: »

very good at acting the gangster though

Yeah "acting"

Vincent Vega

NIMAN wrote: »

Can I ask you, as someone who has dealings with the traveller community, if there are any strong leaders in it that are trying to do what I suggest?

If they are to change, to reduce their crime figures, complete their educations, stop getting pregnant at 16, hold down careers etc, then they need strong voices to steer them.

The only voices I ever hear representing them are that John Connors bloke and Pavee Point, but imho these 2 voices are very negative and are doing more harm than good.

I would have thought that as the generations pass and we move into new times as a nation, there might have been more people coming to the fore to try to change their lot in life?

Personally I wouldn't expect a strong spokesperson(s) to be catalyst to major change, or having the authority to speak on behalf of all and every Traveller.
No more than a spokesperson for the settled community would.
Any of the spokespeople that regularly get named here and elsewhere have been met with a fair divide in opinion from my experience.

I'd see it as a poison chalice to attempt to pick up as no matter ones good intentions you inevitably become a focal point for all related criticism from both settled people and Travellers alike.

Any change will come gradually at grass-roots level through community involvement and it won't be in the form of some grand occurrence reported through media. There are plenty of good things going on in the background like men's sheds, sporting teams, women's social clubs. This may not seem like much, but community outreach is really important in how it helps address many other issues.

I wouldn't claim to have any easy answers or solutions, the main thing I'm trying to get at here is that the settled community have a significant role to play in order for progress to be made.

I just don't see the current climate of constant ridicule, hatred and discrimination as being conducive to anything other than more of the same.

If you want people to change, the very least you could do is provide some sort of assurance that you'll accept them if and when they do.

And if not, why should anybody be eager or willing to change?

NIMAN

Vincent Vega wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't expect a strong spokesperson(s) to be catalyst to major change, or having the authority to speak on behalf of all and every Traveller.
No more than a spokesperson for the settled community would.
Any of the spokespeople that regularly get named here and elsewhere have been met with a fair divide in opinion from my experience.

I'd see it as a poison chalice to attempt to pick up as no matter ones good intentions you inevitably become a focal point for all related criticism from both settled people and Travellers alike.

Any change will come gradually at grass-roots level through community involvement and it won't be in the form of some grand occurrence reported through media. There are plenty of good things going on in the background like men's sheds, sporting teams, women's social clubs. This may not seem like much, but community outreach is really important in how it helps address many other issues.

I wouldn't claim to have any easy answers or solutions, the main thing I'm trying to get at here is that the settled community have a significant role to play in order for progress to be made.

I just don't see the current climate of constant ridicule, hatred and discrimination as being conducive to anything other than more of the same.

If you want people to change, the very least you could do is provide some sort of assurance that you'll accept them if and when they do.

And if not, why should anybody be eager or willing to change?

I think if travellers were indistinguishable from everyone else in society then they would have most people willing to accept them without any problem.

whisky_galore

NIMAN wrote: »

I think if travellers behaved themselves as a whole, pulled their weight and didn't expect special treatment from everyone else in society then they would have most people willing to accept them without any problem.

FYP

B.A._Baracus

Give an inch take a mile. No truer words have been spoken when it comes to travellers.

They'd love to get an official apology. Milk some money out it (reparations)

But out of the 600 plus votes so far at least 20 people think they should. One born every minute.

Dr Brown

Will pavee point ever apologize for traveller criminality ?

Will they f**k. So why then are we expected to apologize to travellers.

byhookorbycrook

Vincent Vega wrote: »

Parents.

It wasn't a comment on systemic discrimination, but on how early interactions between settled and traveller children, and their parents reinforcement help to shape both cultures prejudices.

It was not uncommon for the traveller child in our class to be almost completely excluded in the schoolyard.

Then get your parents to apologize, not the state.

italodisco

NIMAN wrote: »

I think if travellers were indistinguishable from everyone else in society then they would have most people willing to accept them without any problem.

That would mean they'd have to stop wearing Slazenger, not gonna happen!