Travellers want a state apology

work

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You are a martyr to the cause, and everybody appreciates your great effort.[/quote]
Yes your efforts are appreciated as without good mods boards is dead. I think it is poor form however to level cynical remarks at mods. Just state any grievance and move on don't be a funny fool.

All Seeing Eye

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You can’t be racist to travellers as they are white Irish with twisted DNA. Definition of racism “prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior“.

Greyfox

I've never had a nice experience with a traveller. If I walked into a travellers site to ask for directions I would be met with hostility. Travellers have caused people not to like them by deciding they want to be separate from the rest of society as they have created a situation where most settled people don't get a chance meet any nice travellers.

Nitrogan

They're parasites.

If everyone lived like Travellers we'd be eating one another within months.

At some point you have to call their 'culture' out for what it is. They could not survive without handouts from normal society.

Graces7

Nitrogan wrote: »

They're parasites.

If everyone lived like Travellers we'd be eating one another within months.

At some point you have to call their 'culture' out for what it is. They could not survive without handouts from normal society.

Not could disabled folk, pensioners..

suicide_circus

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Not could disabled folk, pensioners..

being old or disabled is not a culture

Gravelly

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Not could disabled folk, pensioners..

Disabled folk and pensioners don't have an overwhelming record of destroying what's given to them, attacking those that help them, living like gangsters, and supplementing what they get with crime though.

Vincent Vega

All Seeing Eye wrote: »

You can’t be racist to travellers as they are white Irish with twisted DNA. Definition of racism “prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior“.

Seems that there are a lot of people here that are really keen on splitting hairs over whether they are the right kind of intolerant or not to be considered racist.

Numerous attempts being made to justify this on here and other Traveller related threads.

If not racist, I'd like to think these same people would have the self awareness, and be proud enough in how and what they think about a whole class of people, to at the very least identify as bigots.

Loves_lorries

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

That's a good idea & sounds like a good place to start. I think your always going to have your nutters who just wont accept certain people no matter how good a person is & law abiding they are. I mean you've still got Loyalists up North who would rather put a bullet in a Catholics head than sit down & have a cup of tea with them just because of the religion they were born into. Still got a lot of racist nutters in the American south who think Obama was a Communist-Nazi spy who was going to steal their guns.

Up until a few decades ago the Irish were discriminated against in Britain really badly, the Guildford Four & Birmingham Six being classic examples of that anti-Irish sentimente & what unregulated hatred & intolerance can do. And they were hated coming of the coffin ships & settling in America in the 19th century.

I just think it's sad that a people who have experienced so much discrimination & intolerance are ready on cue to dish out the same ignorant drivel to the easiest targets themselves.

The Irish in the UK were discriminated against for being Irish, not for anything else. Same with African Americans in the USA, because they were black, not because of anything they did!

Travellers are involved in crime and anti social behaviour on a vast scale, never mind the complete disregard for education, health or tax compliancy.

It's reductive ****e (posing as high minded intellectualism) of the highest order to write off the majority on this thread and in the country as a whole as simply being racists, reductive and arrogant, you help no one with that false narative.

Nitrogan

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Not could disabled folk, pensioners..

Really?

Is that as good a defence you can make for a lifestyle choice dressed up as culture?:rolleyes:

Loves_lorries

Vincent Vega wrote: »

Seems that there are a lot of people here that are really keen on splitting hairs over whether they are the right kind of intolerant or not to be considered racist.

Numerous attempts being made to justify this on here and other Traveller related threads.

If not racist, I'd like to think these same people would have the self awareness, and be proud enough in how and what they think about a whole class of people, to at the very least identify as bigots.

People like you who expect nothing from travellers but expect the rest of us to keep quiet no matter what travellers do are the real bigots.

The tyrany of low expectations.

Galwayguy35

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I noticed this myself, not the "knacker" thing, but you see people can say things about travellers that they couldn't say about other groups of people on boards & not get warnings or bans.

That's a load of bollox, I've seen threads closed down and people given warnings and bans on traveller threads.

In fact they are probably one of the most protected group on this site.

CinemaGuy45

High minded low brow drivel what total nonsense.
A long post with zero content.:D

Galwayguy35

end of the road wrote: »

whether they live off the taxes of working people or not is irrelevant to whether they are open to criticism or not. if they are open to criticism then it's because of actions.

It's far from irrelevant actually, they can't complain about lack of opportunities when they don't even stay in school long enough to do the exams needed to get jobs and yet most of them are quite happy to sit on their holes all day and draw welfare which comes from peoples taxes.

Same with housing they don't have to put any effort into getting a house, it's handed to them and they treat the area around it like a tip until the council eventually have to clean it up for them.

Vincent Vega

Loves_lorries wrote: »

People like you who expect nothing from travellers but expect the rest of us to keep quiet no matter what travellers do are the real bigots.

The tyrany of low expectations.

What.

I'm referring specifically to people who have this always generalised, unwaveringly bigoted view of what in their mind is the 'Traveller' or 'Travellers' that they use to dismiss, disregard, ridicule and denigrate a people as a whole.

And hold the idea that all and anyone who identify as such are both somehow responsible and culpable for the actions of some others who also do.

I fully accept that there are major issues prevalent within the community, but at the same time not exclusively so. Sure, why not go after all Lithuanians for these supposed Lithuanian crime gangs running amok at the moment? Should they not also be held fully accountable for the crimes of their kind?

I simply don't believe that the hateful response from the settled community can go anyway towards resolving these problems, only worsening them.

What we may really be looking at here are a people who perhaps to some degree have had a hand in digging themselves into an inescapable hole over time, cut themselves off, and as generations pass the problems associated with that are effectively snowballing.

From working within the community I can assure you that there is an awful lot of unspoken suffering.
People carrying the burden of generations upon generations of untreated mental illness, undealt with trauma from physical and emotional abuse, both past and ongoing.
It's also mixed up with a tough sense of pride, so seeking and accepting help is far too uncommon, though progress is being made.

And then there's being made to feel like a fúcking pariah for even existing in the world outside as a 'Traveller' due to the actions of others that are far beyond your control.

Basically, what I'm getting at is to suggest that if people genuinely wish to see an overall improvement between settled and Traveller relations, it may be first of all helpful to try to see them as HUMAN BEINGS.

I would never attempt to excuse some of the cruelty, abuse and what I personally would consider sociopathic behaviour I have seen from certain members of the community.
However, I'd like to feel that these problems do originate from somewhere, can be related to and understood, worked with and over time resolved.

No amount of ridicule, hatred or vitriol is ever going to achieve that, it needs to be met with compassion.

CinemaGuy45

Vincent Vega wrote: »

What.

I'm referring specifically to people who have this always generalised, unwaveringly bigoted view of what in their mind is the 'Traveller' or 'Travellers' that they use to dismiss, disregard, ridicule and denigrate a people as a whole.

And hold the idea that all and anyone who identify as such are both somehow responsible and culpable for the actions of some others who also do.

I fully accept that there are major issues prevalent within the community, but at the same time not exclusively so. Sure, why not go after all Lithuanians for these supposed Lithuanian crime gangs running amok at the moment? Should they not also be held fully accountable for the crimes of their kind?

I simply don't believe that the hateful response from the settled community can go anyway towards resolving these problems, only worsening them.

What we may really be looking at here are a people who perhaps to some degree have had a hand in digging themselves into an inescapable hole over time, cut themselves off, and as generations pass the problems associated with that are effectively snowballing.

From working within the community I can assure you that there is an awful lot of unspoken suffering.
People carrying the burden of generations upon generations of untreated mental illness, undealt with trauma from physical and emotional abuse, both past and ongoing.
It's also mixed up with a tough sense of pride, so seeking and accepting help is far too uncommon, though progress is being made.

And then there's being made to feel like a fúcking pariah for even existing in the world outside as a 'Traveller' due to the actions of others that are far beyond your control.

Basically, what I'm getting at is to suggest that if people genuinely wish to see an overall improvement between settled and Traveller relations, it may be first of all helpful to try to see them as HUMAN BEINGS.

I would never attempt to excuse some of the cruelty, abuse and what I personally would consider sociopathic behaviour I have seen from certain members of the community.
However, I'd like to feel that these problems do originate from somewhere, can be related to and understood, worked with and over time resolved.

No amount of ridicule, hatred or vitriol is ever going to achieve that, it needs to be met with compassion.

Again I am calling rubbish on your post.

Statistics are everything I am many others have never had a positive interaction with these people.
I would never want to live near them nor have any dealings with them.
Yet people of your ilk for all your words calling the rest of us hateful will not live beside them either.

When will I start seeing halting sites in Foxrock and Donnybrook?
I will admit I do hate these people and I call them every name.
But I do not rob steal beat up old people kill animals evade every tax throw rubbish everywhere fight piss and **** all over the place.

Most importantly I practice what I preach maybe people like you will have a right to address people like me when you practice what you preach.

I won't be holding my breath however.

iamwhoiam

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

Again I am calling rubbish on your post.

Statistics are everything I am many others have never had a positive interaction with these people.
I would never want to live near them nor have any dealings with them.
Yet people of your ilk for all your words calling the rest of us hateful will not live beside them either.

When will I start seeing halting sites in Foxrock and Donnybrook?
I will admit I do hate these people and I call them every name.
But I do not rob steal beat up old people kill animals evade every tax throw rubbish everywhere fight piss and **** all over the place.

Most importantly I practice what I preach maybe people like you will have a right to address people like me when you practice what you preach.

I won't be holding my breath however.

A member of my family live on the same road as a settled traveller family . They are quiet , clean , generous and friendly
Their children attend the local school and are spotless and well mannered .
Do they deserve your disdain ? Do the children deserve your hate ? Do you feel good about yourself hating them ?

On a personal level I nursed many many traveller children . The vast majority of their mothers ( i say mothers because we seldom saw their fathers ) were grateful and mannerly and appreciate a kind word and treating them as human beings

CinemaGuy45

iamwhoiam wrote: »

A member of my family live on the same road as a settled traveller family . They are quiet , clean , generous and friendly
Their children attend the local school and are spotless and well mannered .
Do they deserve your disdain ? Do the children deserve your hate ? Do you feel good about yourself hating them ?

On a personal level I nursed many many traveller children . The vast majority of their mothers ( i say mothers because we seldom saw their fathers ) were grateful and mannerly and appreciate a kind word and treating them as human beings

Good job at sidestepping my points.

Feelings don't trump facts.
Avoiding these people does not make me feel good or bad but it does make me feel must safer.

Would you like to live next to a halting site?

iamwhoiam

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

Good job at sidestepping my points.

Feelings don't trump facts.
Avoiding these people does not make me feel good or bad but it does make me feel must safer.

Would you like to live next to a halting site?

I think you are the one side stepping . Then your hate for them was not confined to those who commit crime or live on halting sites . It was across the board
But I will not get into an argument on this theme because of my experience on another thread .

Vincent Vega

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

Again I am calling rubbish on your post.

Statistics are everything I am many others have never had a positive interaction with these people.
I would never want to live near them nor have any dealings with them.
Yet people of your ilk for all your words calling the rest of us hateful will not live beside them either.

When will I start seeing halting sites in Foxrock and Donnybrook?
I will admit I do hate these people and I call them every name.
But I do not rob steal beat up old people kill animals evade every tax throw rubbish everywhere fight piss and **** all over the place.

Most importantly I practice what I preach maybe people like you will have a right to address people like me when you practice what you preach.

I won't be holding my breath however.

Cmon now.

You must admit that it is both fairly narrowminded and yes, bigoted, to base your judgement of an entire group of people with as many individual differences as they have similarities on your dealings with a particular few who have come to your attention for whatever reason.

Why is it so difficult for people to understand that individuals are not necessarily representative of the whole?
I would never suggest it was unacceptable to hate or distrust specific Travellers who also happen to be shítty human beings. That's a pretty natural and sensible response.

Like I said in the post you quoted, and from which you most likely cherry picked the things that annoyed you to call rubbish on, disregarding the rest, I also find the behaviour you mentioned to be appalling.

I just honestly can't see why it would be reasonable to hold Travellers in their entirety accountable for those actions and not the specific individuals or specific groups involved.

CinemaGuy45

iamwhoiam wrote: »

But I will not get into an argument on this theme because of my experience on another thread .

I have formed my views based on experience too.
So we will leave it at that.

You never answered my question would you live next to a halting site?
But then we all know the answer to that.

CinemaGuy45

Vincent Vega wrote: »

Cmon now.

You must admit that it is both fairly narrowminded and yes, bigoted, to base your judgement of an entire group of people with as many individual differences as they have similarities on your dealings with a particular few who have come to your attention for whatever reason.

Why is it so difficult for people to understand that individuals are not necessarily representative of the whole?
I would never suggest it was unacceptable to hate or distrust specific Travellers who also happen to be shítty human beings. That's a pretty natural and sensible response.

Like I said in the post you quoted, and from which you most likely cherry picked the things that annoyed you to call rubbish on, disregarding the rest, I also find the behaviour you mentioned to be appalling.

I just honestly can't see why it would be reasonable to hold Travellers in their entirety accountable for those actions and not the specific individuals or specific groups involved.

So a hotel not taking a wedding booking is holding all Travellers accountable for the actions of a few?
Sure there is only a 90% chance of massive damage and trouble.
What a hateful bunch those hotel owners are.:rolleyes:

I have made my point GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR.:D

iamwhoiam

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

I have formed my views based on experience too.
So we will leave it at that.

You never answered my question would you live next to a halting site?
But then we all know the answer to that.

No I wouldn't but doesn't mean I tar them all with the same brush . I also wouldn't live beside a drug dealer but I dont believe his whole wider family are also bad

CinemaGuy45

iamwhoiam wrote: »

No I wouldn't but doesn't mean I tar them all with the same brush . I also wouldn't live beside a drug dealer but I dont believe his whole wider family are also bad

I will give you credit you did answer my question.:)
Like you I do not want an argument so on this subject I will agree to disagree.

Gimme A Pound

I know there are decent travellers and would be as respectful to them on an individual basis if they were to me, but when they are so close-knit and choosing to be on the margins and so much horrendous stuff is accepted in their communities, it's difficult not to be wary of groups and I would keep well away.

Nitrogan

How long does a lifestyle choice take to become a recognised and protected culture?

There are generations of non-traveller families on welfare already, when do they get permission not to look for work as part of their tradition?

Vincent Vega

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

So a hotel not taking a wedding booking is holding all Travellers accountable for the actions of a few?
Sure there is only a 90% chance of massive damage and trouble.
What a hateful bunch those hotel owners are.:rolleyes:

I have made my point GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR.:D

Well yeah, it is really.

I see it as being pretty sad that people can't even seem to empathise with this sort of situation.

Can you not imagine how desperate and embarrassing it must feel for a person genuinely just wanting to celebrate with their loved ones and not being able to get a booking anywhere because of their surname or accent?

Seeing as you seem to like your stats, what if it was found people from a specific area of Dublin, or from a certain social class, nationality were statistically found to cause more problems than those from another.

Would it be reasonable to then refuse all bookings from that area/class/nationality based on this?

Gravelly

I hear stories on here about lovely, kind, generous, hard-working, law-abiding travellers all the time.
I've never seen one, nor has anybody I know in real life, so, like unicorns, leprechauns, and angels, I'll respect anybodies right to tell stories about them, and even believe in them, but until I actually see one with my own eyes, or even see evidence that one exists, I'll assume they are the wishful thinking of naive innocents.

Wibbs

Vincent Vega wrote: »

Seeing as you seem to like your stats, what if it was found people from a specific area of Dublin, or from a certain social class, nationality were statistically found to cause more problems than those from another.

Would it be reasonable to then refuse all bookings from that area/class/nationality based on this?

If the risks were as consistently high of something kicking off? Then quite frankly yes. It would be prudent.

Gunmonkey

Wibbs wrote: »

If the risks were as consistently high of something kicking off? Then quite frankly yes. It would be prudent.

Dont bother, his argument is a childish strawman!

No doubt we will get a response of "ugh then if those groups you refused were black then you're a racist and support Trump and probably love Hitler" and blahblahblahblah.......