Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

Pa8301

Leroy42 wrote: »

At every stage of this whole process, the truth, when it eventually does come out, is nearly always way closer to what was aleged than to what Trump claims.

Trump Tower meeting, Cohen, payments to Stormy Daniels, Karen McDougal, stories about Scott Pruitt, fact of Sessions lying to congress, Flynn lying to the FBI.

At everyturn Trump has claimed it all fake news and a witch hunt, and in nearly every case he has been proved to be wrong.

At what point do his supporters start to question his credibility?

I don't think his credibility matters to them. It's all about sticking it to "the left" (which is apparently anyone who doesn't support Trump).

swampgas

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I absolutely am, some laws are unjust, tax laws are at the height of that. When there is so much wreckless government spending going on I very much see th drive to evade taxation.

I see where you're coming from now.

From what I can gather from your posts, the greatest evil the world has ever seen is some dole scrounger spending your hard earned cash.

Tax is evil because some of it goes to dole scroungers, it's morally correct to evade tax because dole scroungers might get a cut of it. Screw funding hospitals, police and infrastructure with your tax dollars because dole scroungers might get some of it too.

So what if Trump threatens to nuke Korea, assaults women, lies every second word, is a racist, is xenophobic, starts trade wars, panders to Russia, and generally brings the US into disrepute, as long as somewhere down the line Trump might find a way to screw over a dole scrounger, he's your guy, right?

Leroy42

Its strange, because I haven't seen many policies from Trump on how is he dealing with this evil of welfare fraud. I know is totally in favour of cutting funds available, but not actually any policies.

What sort of increase in resources has Trump put into dealing with welfare fraud?

Also, still awaiting the number on what welfare fraud is costing the US each year? Bearing in mind that most studies would indicate that spending on welfare is usually spent directly in the economy whilst tax breaks for the wealthy tends to see fund invested in shares and off shore.

Captain Obvious

Eric Cartman wrote: »

What im saying is that you have rotton piles of trash on both sides of an aisle, everyones standing facing one pile and saying how awful it is while the other one is still there not currently being looked at.

I believe trump is inherintly good for america and the market and his policies reflect that . I still think the alternative on the 2016 ballot was much worse

What has been revealed though is that the democrat side is on the level of your average fly tipper compared to the Republicans toxic waste dumping. Election interfering, voter supression, Russian campaign money, NRa money (same thing as Russian money it seems), total abuse of power, major conflicts of interest. The Democrats got rid of Al Franken because of that one picture, the Republicans have literal paedophiles running for them. So you are right, there is two of them in it but the difference in scale

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The ban on people from terror prone states ,

Is there any metric by which this can be deemed as a success?

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the tariffs on chinese steel,

Which has severely damaged industry in the US that is reliant on steel to a greater extent than it has helped the steel industry.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

his tax cuts,

They certainly helped the rich get richer

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the lobbying ban for former senators ,

What need is there for lobbying when you just put the heads of industries directly into the positions?

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the ambitious border wall is starting construction,

Absolute waste of money.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

more resources given to ICE to remove illegal immigrants,

Money paid to private companies to house children in concentration camps run by connected people where the children where treated appallingly.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The results of his policies have been a strong economy, record low black unemployment, increased consumer spending and more money in the pockets of average americans.

The results of his policies haven't been fully experienced yet.

jooksavage

swampgas wrote: »

I see where you're coming from now.

From what a can gather from your posts, the greatest evil the world has ever seen is some dole scrounger spending your hard earned cash.

Tax is evil because some of it goes to dole scroungers, it's morally correct to evade tax because dole scroungers might get a cut of it. Screw funding hospitals, police and infrastructure with your tax dollars because dole scroungers might get some of it too.

Thats the kind of grievance politics that helped elect Trump. NPR, in one of their Embedded podcasts polled some working class whites in 2017 and, though recipients of Obamacare themselves, a few said they would give it up if it meant knocking unemployed latinos and blacks off the system. Insanity.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

But "theft isn't theft" :rolleyes:

Taxation is theft? how will you pay for that border wall?

Eric Cartman wrote: »

It really cant though

Taxation is theft, welfare fraud is theft.
The biggest cause of taxes being unfairly high is welfare funnily enough

everlast75

I listened to an Ex Army General who was contributing to a TV segment and his analysis of Trump and his supporters. It was an idea I had never heard expressed and so I take no credit for it, but it rang completely true to me.

Trump gives them validation, in that they are unhappy but he assures them they need not take any responsibility for their predicament, it is all the fault of the foreigners, the elite, the minorities, those pesky politicians.

It is always his mantra to "blame others", rather than sit up and do something about. They go to the rallies and walk away angry, angry at others though, and Trump is with them, and he is going to do something about it!

jooksavage

everlast75 wrote: »

I listened to an Ex Army General who was contributing to a TV segment and his analysis of Trump and his supporters. It was an idea I had never heard expressed and so I take no credit for it, but it rang completely true to me.

Trump gives them validation, in that they are unhappy but he assures them they need not take any responsibility for their predicament, it is all the fault of the foreigners, the elite, the minorities, those pesky politicians.

It is always his mantra to "blame others", rather than sit up and do something about. They go to the rallies and walk away angry, angry at others though, and Trump is with them, and he is going to do something about it!

That's it in a nutshell really. That's how we've gotten to a situation where poor people will turn a blind eye to billionaire thieves like Wilbur Ross and attack other poor people.

B0jangles

everlast75 wrote: »

I listened to an Ex Army General who was contributing to a TV segment and his analysis of Trump and his supporters. It was an idea I had never heard expressed and so I take no credit for it, but it rang completely true to me.

Trump gives them validation, in that they are unhappy but he assures them they need not take any responsibility for their predicament, it is all the fault of the foreigners, the elite, the minorities, those pesky politicians.

It is always his mantra to "blame others", rather than sit up and do something about. They go to the rallies and walk away angry, angry at others though, and Trump is with them, and he is going to do something about it!

This makes a lot of sense - it also explains why they don't get angry when Trump just makes excuses and blames someone else every time he fails to do what he said he would.

Akrasia

Keira Orange Store wrote: »

But "theft isn't theft" :rolleyes:

Taxation is theft? how will you pay for that border wall?

Mexico's gonna pay. Don't you remember?

jooksavage

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The biggest cause of taxes being unfairly high is welfare funnily enough

Any CBO or OMB figures to back this up?

relax carry on

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Welfare cheating is way worse than tax evasion , tax evasion doesnt put money in the purse, welfare cheating illegally pulls money out .

That's some warped logic right there.

I work in one area with some input into the other and consider both to be "stealing" for brevity. That's disregarding the nuances of each individual case etc.

B0jangles

The key difference is that generally speaking, rich people commit tax evasion, poor people commit welfare fraud.

strandroad

everlast75 wrote: »

I listened to an Ex Army General who was contributing to a TV segment and his analysis of Trump and his supporters. It was an idea I had never heard expressed and so I take no credit for it, but it rang completely true to me.

Trump gives them validation, in that they are unhappy but he assures them they need not take any responsibility for their predicament, it is all the fault of the foreigners, the elite, the minorities, those pesky politicians.

It is always his mantra to "blame others", rather than sit up and do something about. They go to the rallies and walk away angry, angry at others though, and Trump is with them, and he is going to do something about it!

All the while "personal responsibility" remains the Republican mantra. For other people.

Stallingrad

everlast75 wrote: »

but it rang completely true to me.

Very well put piece.

On top of that given the rampant mockery of Trump from the left means that Trump supporters are more likely to 'double down' on Trump, rather than look in the mirror and admit they got it wrong forcing an embarrassing climb down.

Professor Moriarty

Stallingrad wrote: »

Very well put piece.

On top of that given the rampant mockery of Trump from the left means that Trump supporters are more likely to 'double down' on Trump, rather than look in the mirror and admit they got it wrong forcing an embarrassing climb down.

You're right. But it's not the hardcore support that's being chased. They're too conditioned and often too stupid. It's the soft support. And it's turning. 5-10% swing and it's meltdown for the GOP.

Akrasia

jooksavage wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell really. That's how we've gotten to a situation where poor people will turn a blind eye to billionaire thieves like Wilbur Ross and attack other poor people.

If anyone is interested, Bob Altemeyer, a Canadian Psychologist (not Jordan Peterson) wrote a book in 2006 called 'The Authoritarians' which I can't recommend highly enough.
It talks about authoritarian leaders, but also, the kinds of people who are inclined to follow authoritarian leaders.

It explains very well the character traits of people who willingly follow people despite enormous evidence that they are not being honest and truthful.

Here is some of what he had to say in 2016 about Trump and his followers

We know a lot about authoritarian followers, but unfortunately most of what we know indicates it will be almost impossible to change their minds, especially in a few months. Here are some things established by experiments. See if you recognize any of these behaviors in Trump supporters. Compared with most people:

They are highly ethnocentric, highly inclined to see the world as their in-group versus everyone else. Because they are so committed to their in-group, they are very zealous in its cause. They will trust their leaders no matter what they say, and distrust whomever the leader says to distrust.

They are highly fearful of a dangerous world. Their parents taught them, more than parents usually do, that the world is dangerous. They may also be genetically predisposed to experience stronger fear than people skilled at “keeping their heads while others are losing theirs.”

They are highly self-righteous. They believe they are the “good people” and this unlocks a lot of hostile impulses against those they consider bad.

They are aggressive. Given the chance to attack someone with the approval of an authority, they will lower the boom.

They are highly prejudiced against racial and ethnic minorities, non-heterosexuals, and women in general.

They will support their authorities, and even help them, persecute almost any identifiable group in the country.

Their beliefs are a mass of contradictions. They have highly compartmentalized minds, in which opposite beliefs live independent lives in separate boxes. As a result, their thinking is full of double-standards.

They reason poorly. If they like the conclusion of an argument, they don’t pay much attention to whether the evidence is valid or the argument is consistent. They especially have trouble realizing a conclusion is invalid.

They are highly dogmatic. Because they have mainly gotten their beliefs from the authorities in their lives, rather than think things out for themselves, they have no real defense when facts or events indicate they are wrong. So they just dig in their heels and refuse to change.

They are very dependent on social reinforcement of their beliefs. They think they are right because almost everyone they know and listen to tells them they are. That happens because they screen out sources that will suggest that they are wrong.

Because they severely limit their exposure to different people and ideas, they vastly overestimate the extent to which other people agree with them. And thinking they are “the moral majority” supports their attacks on the “evil minorities” they see in the country.

They believe strongly in group cohesiveness, and being loyal. They are highly energized when surrounded by a crowd of fellow-believers because it makes them feel powerful and supports their belief that “all the good people” agree with them.

They are easily duped by manipulators who pretend to espouse their causes when all the con-artists really want is personal gain.

They are largely blind to themselves. They have little self-understanding and insight into why they think and do what they do. They are heavily into denial.

I hasten to add that studies find examples of all these things in lots of others, not just authoritarian followers. But not as consistently, and not nearly as much.

https://theauthoritarians.org/donald-trump-and-authoritarian-followers/

The Author has made the full book available for free here
https://theauthoritarians.org/options-for-getting-the-book/

54and56

The Great Leaders bowels should be stirring in the next 30-60 minutes which as we all know means he'll be firing up the Twitter machine to in order to refute and correct (or possible deflect from) all the wrongs and fake news stories which were bugging him as he tried to get to sleep last night.

Should be fun.

humberklog

Trying to find out on news but can't find answer...are Manafort and Cohen released at the moment awaiting sentence or are they in custody?

prawnsambo

humberklog wrote: »

Trying to find out on news but can't find answer...are Manafort and Cohen released at the moment awaiting sentence or are they in custody?

I think Manafort is in custody. Afaik, he's been in custody for a while now. I doubt Cohen is. He's co-operating and has yet to be sentenced.

Edit: Yes, Manafort is in prison and has been since the trial started. Cohen is currently on $500,000 bail.

Stallingrad

[QUOTE=Je_suis_Jean;107860197
Should be fun.[/QUOTE]

He will flick straight to Fox news and his 'happy place' where a story leads of a brown man killing a white girl.

Trent Houseboat

Manafort had his bail revoked a few months ago for witness tampering and has been locked up ever since.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Had a quick look at the top 15 most frequently visited news sites in the USA. All but one have Cohen and Manafort stories as their top headlines.

Can anyone else guess the "news" site that does not? Fox news. Their top story today is "Illegal immigrant arrested in murder of Mollie Tibbetts..." The Manafort story is second while the Cohen store is the 6th headline!! 14 'fake news' sites I guess.

Water John

Cohen the fixer is his real trouble. The fixer knows everything like the bookkeeper in the mafia.
If what Lammy, Cohen's lawyer, says is true and can be verified, Trump will be the 2nd POTUS to depart by helicopter from the South Lawn. May take until the Spring.

strandroad

Water John wrote: »

Cohen the fixer is his real trouble. The fixer knows everything like the bookkeeper in the mafia.
If what Lammy, Cohen's lawyer, says is true and can be verified, Trump will be the 2nd POTUS to depart by helicopter from the South Lawn. May take until the Spring.

Was Cohen responsible for Trump's property deals as well, or only his personal affairs?

Thepoet85

From The Guardian:

"Since his election, his national security adviser, personal lawyer, campaign chairman, deputy campaign manager and a foreign policy aide have all admitted or been convicted of crimes."

The best people indeed.

Penn

Keira Orange Store wrote: »

Had a quick look at the top 15 most frequently visited news sites in the USA. All but one have Cohen and Manafort stories as their top headlines.

Can anyone else guess the "news" site that does not? Fox news. Their top story today is "Illegal immigrant arrested in murder of Mollie Tibbetts..." The Manafort story is second while the Cohen store is the 6th headline!! 14 'fake news' sites I guess.

Well Hannity started last night by saying he was going to give his viewers the truth, which they wouldn't get anywhere else because the rest of the media were spreading false information and hysteria.

During which, according to HuffPost's summary:

Hannity, who was also a client of Cohen’s, told viewers that he suspected prosecutors “forced” the attorney to say Trump knew about the hush money payments. He also told his viewers that there were lessons to learn from Tuesday’s news, including not lying to the FBI and paying taxes.

ECO_Mental

humberklog wrote: »

Trying to find out on news but can't find answer...are Manafort and Cohen released at the moment awaiting sentence or are they in custody?

I think I heard last night Cohen sentencing isn't until December....pleanty of time for him to cooperate;)

Water John

Lanny Davis said two things. Trump knew of the Trump Tower meeting prior to it happening. The second related to the hacking of the DNC and Hillary's emails.

He said this to the Business Insider;
"Michael Cohen knows information that would be of interest to the Special Counsel regarding both knowledge about a conspiracy to corrupt American democracy by the Russians and the failure to report that knowledge to the FBI," said Davis.

relax carry on

Has someone taken Trumps phone away from him? No tweet in 11 hours.