Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

billy few mates

I'm guessing one of the first things Kieran Mulvey advised them to do was dial down the rhetoric and stop trying to 'spin' their way out of this with a Trump style Twitter flame war.
There hasn't been a single tweet, statement or interview all week with any of the trigger phrases (unnecessary strike, small percentage of our pilots, unwanted interference, Aer Lingus pilots union etc) and now (subject to ballot) it looks like they've finally come to an amicable agreement.
They now need to bury the hatchet and come out with a joint statement to give the public some confidence that these problems are firmly in the past to restore the trust so people can get booking again.
A one million seats for a fiver sale might also help...

LeChienMefiant

There are two parties to the dispute. Both have been quite well behaved (publicly) since talks started.

Hellrazer

I did say over a month ago that mediation with someone from the WRC would be the only way to resolve this.

Whatever your opinion on this both sides need to get together as soon as possible and fix this before next week. Maybe some sort of mediation by the WRC would be preferable to both sides.

Took them both long enough to get there.
At least now a resolution has been found.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107435117&postcount=73

billy few mates

Hellrazer wrote: »

I did say over a month ago that mediation with someone from the WRC would be the only way to resolve this.



Took them both long enough to get there.
At least now a resolution has been found.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107435117&postcount=73

Yes, it's a pity Ryanair rejected the suggestion of third party intervention for so long before eventually embracing it and then even trying to pretend the whole thing was their idea...

Once the dust finally settles on this whole fiasco some serious questions need to be asked about the management and their handling of this dispute, they were found clearly wanting...

CoisFharraige

Hellrazer wrote: »

Took them both long enough to get there.
At least now a resolution has been found.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107435117&postcount=73

I don't know about that - the pilots need to ballot it, and if they're not 100% happy with it, as we've seen around Europe, they could just dismiss it as an f you to Ryanair and we're back to square 1 again. Not over by a long shot. At least it's a bit of a temporary resolution.

billy few mates wrote: »

Yes, it's a pity Ryanair rejected the suggestion of third party intervention for so long before eventually embracing it and then even trying to pretend the whole thing was their idea...

Yes it was hilarious to be honest; doing things 'The Ryanair Way'.

LeChienMefiant

No shortage of rhetoric here as usual. I'd otherwise be disappointed, to be honest.

billy few mates

CoisFharraige wrote: »

I don't know about that - the pilots need to ballot it, and if they're not 100% happy with it, as we've seen around Europe, they could just dismiss it as an f you to Ryanair and we're back to square 1 again. Not over by a long shot. At least it's a bit of a temporary resolution.




Yes it was hilarious to be honest; doing things 'The Ryanair Way'.

At least the union were able to come to some sort of an agreement they were at least able to offer to their members which has to be seen as a good sign, the rest is up to them now to decide.
The fact that they're also having to ballot the members on it suggests there might also be compromise on some of the demands rather than outright compliance...?

Bob24

CoisFharraige wrote: »

I don't know about that - the pilots need to ballot it, and if they're not 100% happy with it, as we've seen around Europe, they could just dismiss it as an f you to Ryanair and we're back to square 1 again. Not over by a long shot. At least it's a bit of a temporary resolution.

It is a possibility indeed, but unless the union is misjudging what the pilots’ expectations are (which is possible but hopefully not the most likely scenario), why would they ballot them on a deal which they are not fairly confident will be accepted? A rejection would basically mean pilots think the union hasn’t done a good job, which would be ackward as they are just through the door.

Hellrazer

billy few mates wrote: »

Yes, it's a pity Ryanair rejected the suggestion of third party intervention for so long before eventually embracing it and then even trying to pretend the whole thing was their idea...

Once the dust finally settles on this whole fiasco some serious questions need to be asked about the management and their handling of this dispute, they were found clearly wanting...

Ah come on. Both sides are to blame. Forsa didnt do anything constructive to move things on either.

Bazzy

As sure as eggs is eggs if its going to cost ryanair more money to fly them planes, the cost will be passed onto Joe Public

mattser

Bazzy wrote: »

As sure as eggs is eggs if its going to cost ryanair more money to fly them planes, the cost will be passed onto Joe Public

Tough titties Joe. You never realised bow good you had it.

Comhrá

Bazzy wrote: »

As sure as eggs is eggs if its going to cost ryanair more money to fly them planes, the cost will be passed onto Joe Public

That's what happens in virtually every industry around the world. Energy prices fluctuate from time to time and when the price of a barrel of crude goes up, Joe Public picks up the tab for fuel, electricity, gas etc.

Joe Public still has very affordable air fares, strikes or no strikes and even if Ryanair fares increase by 5 -10%, the 737s will still be nearly full and life will continue as before.

billy few mates

Hellrazer wrote: »

Ah come on. Both sides are to blame. Forsa didnt do anything constructive to move things on either.

From the outset Forsa highlighted the fact that Ryanair were inexperienced at this type of negotiation and suggested third party intervention, Ryanair rejected this before eventually accepting it.
As far as I'm aware the only time Forsa refused to meet with Ryanair was when they tried to impose preconditions on thise meetings which is fully understandable...

billy few mates

Bazzy wrote: »

As sure as eggs is eggs if its going to cost ryanair more money to fly them planes, the cost will be passed onto Joe Public

No problem, €1 per ticket would easily cover the additional costs with enough left over to cover the management bonuses. The travelling public wouldn't notice another €1 on a fare and even if they did it would hardly be a deal breaker. If anything it would be a small price to pay if it meant their flight was going to actually operate...

Under His Eye

2018 Strike Levy!

Widdensushi

billy few mates wrote: »

No problem, €1 per ticket would easily cover the additional costs with enough left over to cover the management bonuses. The travelling public wouldn't notice another €1 on a fare and even if they did it would hardly be a deal breaker. If anything it would be a small price to pay if it meant their flight was going to actually operate...

But the strike was not about money!!!!

Brendan Bendar

Widdensushi wrote: »

But the strike was not about money!!!!

Pal, we know that,but the settlement cost will up the operational cost base.

So to cover those costs and remain competitive prices will have to rise.

Got it?

Widdensushi

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Pal, we know that,but the settlement cost will up the operational cost base.

So to cover those costs and remain competitive prices will have to rise.

Got it?

I got it from the start,it was always about money one way or the other

billy few mates

Think of it as more of a redistribution of wealth...

billy few mates

Widdensushi wrote: »

But the strike was not about money!!!!

It wasn't about pay, it was about an open and transparent seniority system that wouldn't cost a penny...

billy few mates

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Pal, we know that,but the settlement cost will up the operational cost base.

So to cover those costs and remain competitive prices will have to rise.

Got it?

Not really.
Care to give us a breakdown of these additional costs..?

vectorvictor

billy few mates wrote: »

No problem, €1 per ticket would easily cover the additional costs with enough left over to cover the management bonuses. The travelling public wouldn't notice another €1 on a fare and even if they did it would hardly be a deal breaker. If anything it would be a small price to pay if it meant their flight was going to actually operate...

If only it was that easy , if it was they would already be doing it. As a load factor aggressive, yield passive airline, Ryanairs yield management is tuned to within an inch of its life to get the aircraft full and ancillary sales in.

Believe it or not , adding a €1 across the board to each fare would have disastrous effects on load factor. Sounds bizzare for such a small sum but that is the reality of what it takes to achieve their load factors

Brendan Bendar

billy few mates wrote: »

Not really.
Care to give us a breakdown of these additional costs..?

Cannot do without knowing the settlement terms ,dude.

However, think it’s fair to assume that the conditions folk went on strike to achieve will add cost to the cost base?

Like, it’s pretty obvious, dude.

billy few mates

vectorvictor wrote: »

If only it was that easy , if it was they would already be doing it. As a load factor aggressive, yield passive airline, Ryanairs yield management is tuned to within an inch of its life to get the aircraft full and ancillary sales in.

Believe it or not , adding a €1 across the board to each fare would have disastrous effects on load factor. Sounds bizzare for such a small sum but that is the reality of what it takes to achieve their load factors

You're right, I don't believe it, maybe you could explain to me how a €1 levy on every ticket to find the shortfall in their social obligations and go a long way towards ensuring industrial harmony can be so harmful to the business model when a similar wheelchair levy on every ticket isn't...?

billy few mates

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Cannot do without knowing the settlement terms ,dude.

However, think it’s fair to assume that the conditions folk went on strike to achieve will add cost to the cost base?

Like, it’s pretty obvious, dude.

If it's that obvious you should be able to point out where the additional costs might lie regardless of the settlement terms, dude.
How would you cost a seniority list..?

Brendan Bendar

billy few mates wrote: »

If it's that obvious you should be able to point out where the additional costs might lie regardless of the settlement terms, dude.
How would you cost a seniority list..?

Maybe you know the settlement terms , but until the details are out, and voted on,the cost for a “seniority list”,whatever that means, would be the paper and ink it’s printed on, plus the time taken to collate the “list” dude.

vectorvictor

billy few mates wrote: »

You're right, I don't believe it, maybe you could explain to me how a €1 levy on every ticket to find the shortfall in their social obligations and go a long way towards ensuring industrial harmony can be so harmful to the business model when a similar wheelchair levy on every ticket isn't...?

You would need to think through the maths and how load factors work and the fact that the charges you have mentioned are irrelevant when the base fare has to be reduced to make the overall fare meet the requirement of delivering the desired load factor .

For a simple example €100 base fare plus let's say €10 of made up charges (wchr,your levy etc..). Yield management detects that the rate of sale (number of seats booked by each day prior to departure) is below that required to achieve the desired load factor. Yield management reduces the base fare to €90 to stimulate demand. The overall fare will always be the maximum the market can bare to achieve the load factor - it's just the composition of it that will be different if you add extra charges but the end fare will always be the same. In this example if that maximum the market for a particular sector can bare is €100 then that is the maximum you can achieve. It doesnt matter whether you charge €100 all in or €50 plus €50 charges. You will not (when aggregated and averaged) ever be able to achieve €101.

Why do you think there are so many seat sales. It is because the algorithm has detected that the fare being offered will not complete the flight load factor and it tests the market by reducing yield to increase load factor and then increasing once the rate of sale brings the sector back on track with its lf target.

Ryanair would not being saying no to €130,000,000 extra revenue per year if your idea was as simple as you make it out. Doing what you've suggested would decimate load factor.

billy few mates

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Maybe you know the settlement terms , but until the details are out, and voted on,the cost for a “seniority list”,whatever that means, would be the paper and ink it’s printed on, plus the time taken to collate the “list” dude.

Oh I get it now, pass off any old rubbish as a statement of fact without any evidence to support it and when challenged to stand over it just respond by saying "it's obvious" like that somehow makes it credible...:D
Carry on dude...

Brendan Bendar

billy few mates wrote: »

Oh I get it now, pass off any old rubbish as a statement of fact without any evidence to support it and when challenged to stand over it just respond by saying "it's obvious" like that somehow makes it credible...:D
Carry on dude...

Don’t know how you can ‘challenge’ something not in the public domain.

What you seem to want is to hand someone a closed bag of goods, and ask them to give you a cost ?

C’mon dude, you are better than that, surely.

Tenger

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Cannot do without knowing the settlement terms ,dude.

However, think it’s fair to assume that the conditions folk went on strike to achieve will add cost to the cost base?

Like, it’s pretty obvious, dude.

I think it’s fair to assume that Ryanair will claim its will cost them. But the issue of whether it’s a 1 time set up costs for a new admin system or an ongoing alteration to their recruitment and employment procedure.

While the Irish strike was focused on gaining a company wide seniority list the actual negotiations may have extended to other flashpoint issues from FR flight crew in other countries.

I personally can’t understand how Ryanair handled this so badly. They are usually such a slick operation. They accepted recognition of unions last year after the staffing debacle. It was almost as if they were unprepared for a fight with unions. I can understand their initial refusal but in this situation they look like they conceded by going for 3rd party intervention. I could well be wrong on that, just my opinion.