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David Drumm guilty

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    #182
    Field east
    Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭Field east


    AllForIt wrote: »
    Ok, I don't know all ins and outs of this case but I just want to comment on the judges summing up comments.

    "Time spent in a US prison - should stand to his credit"

    "Oh - he has suffered socially because of this"

    The sympathetic tone here to me is just unbelievable. Especially the second comment I quoted - that applies to anyone who has been convicted who hitherto had an unblemished record and now outed as a criminal. Perhaps some have but this point was so prominent in news reports today. Clearly if one is upper/middle class the judge will take into account their social standing more so than if one were a working class criminal. It's just disgusting really.

    Is there any other way of treating individuals found guilty of ‘breaking the law’. Ireland is apparently totally hung ho in relation to using prison only for all guilty parties. We seem to want to use jail in all cases for our own satisfaction.
    This raises the following two issues for me and I will use the jailing of David Drumm to make the points

    (1) Ireland’s jails are full to capacity- some are at over capacity. The cost per prisoner is astronomical. They are a ‘hive of activity ‘ for drugs - both taking them , organising shipments, distribution, etc. , organising criminal activity, etc. All this puts a lot of pressure on prison management to keep things in order.
    This begs the following question.
    Is there another way to ‘punish’ people besides sending them to prison with a view to reducing costs and making management tasks much easier
    (1) a lot of prisoners are not a physical threat to society and a lot have abilities / skills that can be used for the common good

    So, taking the David Drumms’ of this world, would it not make much more sence to , say, put him in jail for ,say, 6 months and 5 and a half months of supervised community service, picking up litter , help managage a community programmer or whatever. He is being discrased in public and when he has served his time he , hopefully, will be in a better position, to contribute to society/ the economy in general- having hopefully learnt his lesson, then if he spent all of his time in prison. The same would , hopefully ,apply to all such cases.
    Prison management can then concentrate more on the ‘hard’ cases.
    I rest my case


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    #183
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,889 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    what article did you get those quotes from?




    I heard it on radio news yesterday morning before he was actually sentencedI'd imagine it was quoted in several papers. It's what his defense team said to the judge


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    #184
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,164 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I heard it on radio news yesterday morning before he was actually sentencedI'd imagine it was quoted in several papers. It's what his defense team said to the judge




    Well that is what i thought as well and had seen reported. The comments were by his barrister. The post i quoted claims they were comments by the judge and decided to roundly condemn the judge because of them.


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    #185
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,889 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    ohnonotgmail wrote:
    Well that is what i thought as well and had seen reported. The comments were by his barrister. The post i quoted claims they were comments by the judge and decided to roundly condemn the judge because of them.

    I think you are correct. I definitely heard the comments came from his legal team. It's possible that judge repeated the comments at the time of sentencing but I didn't hear it that way myself


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    #186
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,164 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I think you are correct. I definitely heard the comments came from his legal team. It's possible that judge repeated the comments at the time of sentencing but I didn't hear it that way myself


    That is entirely possible. The judge may have quoted the statements by his barrister in her summing up. that doesnt mean she agrees with them.


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    #187
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,288 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Well that is what i thought as well and had seen reported. The comments were by his barrister. The post i quoted claims they were comments by the judge and decided to roundly condemn the judge because of them.

    I went to the trouble of double checking this. I looked back at the RTE six-one report on the RTE player to see what was said in a long report. The reporter speaking live from outside the court said that the Judge said was I said she said. Now whether the reporter didn't relay this accurately I don't know but it could be a possibility. It could very well be she (the judge) was just reflecting back what his barrister said but I still don't know for certain either way.

    In any case I still feel my point applies. It is up to the judge when summing up in mitigation what they choose to say. Anyone who's been convicted in a crime is going to be effected socially by being exposed so it's kinda of a non-point really when it's universal but the judge in this case elected to state it where I doubt the point is made in every case.


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    #188
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,164 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    AllForIt wrote: »
    I went to the trouble of double checking this. I looked back at the RTE six-one report on the RTE player to see what was said in a long report. The reporter speaking live from outside the court said that the Judge said was I said she said. Now whether the reporter didn't relay this accurately I don't know but it could be a possibility. It could very well be she (the judge) was just reflecting back what his barrister said but I still don't know for certain either way.

    In any case I still feel my point applies. It is up to the judge when summing up in mitigation what they choose to say. Anyone who's been convicted in a crime is going to be effected socially by being exposed so it's kinda of a non-point really when it's universal but the judge in this case elected to state it where I doubt the point is made in every case.


    it is up to the judge to choose what they say. part of that is repeating the claims in mitigation by the defence. If they omit this it can the basis of an appeal as the defence can say that the judge ignored the claims. If they reference the claims and explain why they do not apply then this cannot happen. Unless the judge explicitly said that there was merit in the mitigation claims i dont see that you have anything to complain about.


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    #189
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Any expressions of regret ought to be taken with a grain of salt. Millions are yet to be recovered and up to the end he was still trying to claim the house in Dublin for his wife.

    The judge said the fraud he was on trial for ultimately failed and on that point he is wrong. Certainly Drumm`s attempt to save Anglo failed but the fraud not only succeeded, it created a vortex in the matrix that is political cowardice that ultimately sucked in tens of billions more in tax payers money.

    What people may not realize is that in the past, had Ireland been in a lot of debt it would have done what any other country would do at recessionary times, it would print money until things stabilize. Nowadays, Ireland is in the Euro and when things turn bad next time, Ireland and the med countries will call for more QE and the German`s, Finn`s and Dutch will resist that. It could lead to the break up of the EU. Ireland will probably fall back on it`s pre EU relationship with the UK then.


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    #190
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,852 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Drumm pleaded guilty on further charges today.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2018/0629/974132-david-drumm/

    Everything in Anglo-Irish all wrapped up now.


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    #191
    benny79
    Registered Users Posts: 3,105 ✭✭✭benny79


    And they all more or less got slaps on the wrists!! All still multi-millionaires.. Great dy to be Irish!


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    #192
    GhostyMcGhost
    Registered Users Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭GhostyMcGhost


    benny79 wrote: »
    And they all more or less got slaps on the wrists!! All still multi-millionaires.. Great dy to be Irish!

    Bankrupt yourself and a company and don't worry about it. The Irish will pick up the tab and not a damn thing anyone will have the balls to do about it

    Ps... You can have your pension early too if you want. We'll even throw in free legal aid

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/jailed-david-drumm-will-get-to-keep-his-44m-pension-pot-37074513.html


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    #193
    benny79
    Registered Users Posts: 3,105 ✭✭✭benny79


    How the fcuk was he granted free legal aid?? Seriously what a joke! boils my blood..


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    #194
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    benny79 wrote: »
    How the fcuk was he granted free legal aid?? Seriously what a joke! boils my blood..

    Let me start by saying I'm not defending David Drumm but..................

    Almost everybody gets free legal aid. Even if you are rich, you still get it in most cases.

    That's because it could cost you hundreds of thousands to defend yourself in court. Drumm's case was one of the longest and most complicated in Irish legal history. The longer and more complicated the case, the more it costs to defend.

    Put aside emotion, and forget it is David Drumm we are talking about for a minute. Supposing it was Mr BattleCorp on trial here. Before and during the trial, Mr BattleCorp is considered to be innocent until proven guilty (no matter what the charge). Under that assumption, would it be fair to expect someone to stump up hundreds of thousands to defend themselves. What if he was found not guilty (and therefore innocent in the eyes of the law)? Would that be fair that he has to pay his legal costs that could be hundreds of thousands?

    That's why even rich people get legal aid (most of the time).


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    #195
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,852 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Sentencing later today.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/former-anglo-ceo-david-drumm-to-be-sentenced-today-for-providing-unlawful-loans-to-maple-10-37095274.html


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    #196
    benny79
    Registered Users Posts: 3,105 ✭✭✭benny79


    taught he already got sentenced?


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    #197
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,164 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    benny79 wrote: »
    taught he already got sentenced?




    The sentencing today is for separate offences regarding illegal loans.


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    #198
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,422 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    benny79 wrote: »
    taught he already got sentenced?
    Who taught you that?


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    #199
    Odyssey 2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,065 ✭✭✭✭Odyssey 2005


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    The sentencing today is for separate offences regarding illegal loans.

    Sentencing me hole. 15 months suspended. You'd get that for speeding ffs.


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    #200
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Can we call that the biggest joke if a sentence in the history if the state?

    Anyone involved in that sentencing should be booted out of their profession immediately.

    Six years for smuggling garlic, but nothing for the worst financial crime in the history of the country that brought us incredibly close to absolute ruin.


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    #201
    Johnnycanyon
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭Johnnycanyon


    Typical Irish sentence for a corrupt banker! If it were social welfare fraud a jail term would be almost guaranteed.


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    #202
    Dr. Bre
    Registered Users Posts: 7,541 ✭✭✭Dr. Bre


    And he gets a pension of a couple of million when he gets out. Defo worth doing a crime for this ..


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    #203
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Total joke of a sentence. The judicial sysyem of this country needs a complete enema.

    Drumm is probably the worst white collar criminal this country has ever seen. In the USA, he would be looking at life.


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    #204
    bear1
    Registered Users Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Would any of us ordinary folk get the same 15 months suspended sentence I wonder...
    Farce.


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    #205
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Dr. Bre wrote: »
    And he gets a pension of a couple of million when he gets out. Defo worth doing a crime for this ..

    Gets out of where? The sentence is suspended, making it even worse.


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    #206
    the purple tin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,943 ✭✭✭✭the purple tin


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Total joke of a sentence. The judicial sysyem of thks country needs a complete enema.

    Drumm is probably the worst white collar criminal this country has ever seen. In the USA, he would be looking at life.
    In China he'd have been taken out and shot!


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    #207
    bear1
    Registered Users Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Gets out of where? The sentence is suspended, making it even worse.

    But isn't he serving 6 years as well?


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    #208
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    bear1 wrote: »
    But isn't he serving 6 years as well?

    Apologies, I had misread this as overruling that sentence. I'd like to say your correcting me makes me feel better about the situation but... :o


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    #209
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,755 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    the purple tin wrote: »
    In China he'd have been taken out and shot!
    In the old days they'd have sent his family the bill for the bullet too, because collective responsibility.

    Nowadays they'd sell his organs.


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    #210
    washman3
    Registered Users Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    Odyssey 2005 wrote: »
    Sentencing me hole. 15 months suspended. You'd get that for speeding ffs.

    Not if you play golf with the judge....;)


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    #211
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Dr. Bre wrote: »
    And he gets a pension of a couple of million when he gets out. Defo worth doing a crime for this ..

    Gets out of where? The sentence is suspended, making it even worse.
    bear1 wrote: »
    Would any of us ordinary folk get the same 15 months suspended sentence I wonder...
    Farce.

    Even if the sentence was 15 month is in jail (not suspended), realistically he wouldn't be spending any more time in jail as he is doing 6 years at the moment.


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