Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Realt Dearg Sec

BloodyBill wrote: »

Chicago Bears team of the 70s could cope with that.

*80s was the good Bears defense.

My take on it was that there was very little positive you could reasonably take from last weekend, tactically and in terms of the response to adversity in the second half. But we are often quick to hit the panic button as well, and next week will tell us a lot, because bad results have historically always been followed up by a serious statement next day out, it's a characteristic Cody trait. If we are flat again, and against Tipp in particular, then I'd be more inclined to worry, because while I'm not bothered about fitness issues in February, I would worry about workrate and tactical naivety if we're not seeing improvements.

blackcard

In relation to the skill of handpassing, a large proportion of these are thrown balls or at the very least do not have a clear striking motion. I think it was nearly 60 minutes on Sunday before a free was awarded for a throw ball, the ref should have blown
30 times before that. That and the ignoring the steps rule is a blight on hurling

Cornerback1

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Handpass - I'll give you that, If you read my post from yesterday I mentioned it. But I also gave a reason of how it needs and can improve. All our players can handpass a ball. Mossy Keoghan gave a nice handpass to James Maher for a point in the first half. But its not the handpass itself that is the issue, is it? Its the execution of it. Now more than ever it takes two to make a good handpass because unlike James Maher receiving the ball standing still, the handpass now has to be given on the run to a player taking it on the run in the same direction. This has now become a basic and it goes back to the clubs who are responsible for the basics. How does your own club coach the handpass for example?. I'm sure like pretty much every club in the county. It is being coached with two players running in the opposite direction and handpassing as they head to each other. How often in match does this happen? Really doesn't happen that a teammate comes at pace in the opposite direction to you. The handpass now needs to be coached with two lads moving in the same direction with the receiver moving faster.

Finding A Team Mate: Its a vague enough skill, but maybe our players are more used to having their team mate run towards them in the opposite direction? But I would have said this comes down to tactical teamwork. If all the players are in the wrong place or moving the wrong direction, to me your skillset would be highly challenged. If you consider it a skill, that's fair enough too, but that's one of reason why I'm asking for examples of skill so as we all interpret the same. Off the pace as regards skill was a very general statement. There was no point in disagreeing for the sake of it without specifics.

High Fielding - Could not agree here. Take two of youngest players on Sunday, Tommy Walsh and Michael Carey. Both outfielded their direct opponent in the air. You might reconsider this one.

Rising the Ball - Again couldn't agree. The pace of the game and the rucks means that you could pick on any player from any county including flavour of the month Aaron Gillane and show examples of where they couldn't rise the ball first time. Rucks are part of the game and the ball has to stay in until somebody manages to get it to hand and that rarely happens first time. I would be worried if you come back with an example of one of lads failing consistently to rise the ball when nobody is on him, but I don't recall any of them.

In terms of the handpass, if we're focussing on that now i.e. in training, we're in bother. It should be coached from a very young age in terms of movement and as you say, positioning of other players.

Limerick, and others, have adopted the short handpassing game in their academies. KK, as far as I'm aware, have not. They are all used to it from a young age.

I just don't think we are used to it i.e. the short game. The main point is the movement of the other player is paramount - he actually makes the pass moreso than the player giving the pass.

Cornerback1

blackcard wrote: »

In relation to the skill of handpassing, a large proportion of these are thrown balls or at the very least do not have a clear striking motion. I think it was nearly 60 minutes on Sunday before a free was awarded for a throw ball, the ref should have blown
30 times before that. That and the ignoring the steps rule is a blight on hurling

I think refs were issued with a 'warning' by the big wigs to pull up any 'dodgy' handpasses and any head/helmets strikes i.e. Tony Kelly's one a few weeks ago (wrongly in my opinion) but it'll be interesting to see if this directive keeps pace during the summer.

lim4ev

Limerick man here lads, its possible ye could last longer in championship than us as munster is so close any of the 5 could come out or fail to get out kk won't have that problem I reckon as galway yerselves and wex or Dublin will come through.
I expected more from kk to be honest but reckon when all your players return I think ye will be formidable opposition for anyone ,I can genuinely say we're not getting ahead of ourselves up here we've seen this before all irl champs going so well so early in season there's no all Ireland's handed out in Feb. I'm not for one second saying we haven't a good team as we do but only the great kk team of the 00s could retain it and even nowadays with all the matches its made it even harder. Having said all that Limerick are v driven and are ticking all the right boxes at moment anyway

dubcat51

Up to the few minutes beford half time we were going ok.In the space of a few minutes we fell apart.full back line especially delaney was not strong and aggresive enough.paul murphy has never played well at half back and naher and leahy shoukd be midfield IMO.after that we need richie tj colin joey and buckley to come back and be as good as they were a few years ago.play your best players in their best positions and I think we can still be a match for anyone.

babyjesus14

lim4ev wrote: »

Limerick man here lads, its possible ye could last longer in championship than us as munster is so close any of the 5 could come out or fail to get out kk won't have that problem I reckon as galway yerselves and wex or Dublin will come through.
I expected more from kk to be honest but reckon when all your players return I think ye will be formidable opposition for anyone ,I can genuinely say we're not getting ahead of ourselves up here we've seen this before all irl champs going so well so early in season there's no all Ireland's handed out in Feb. I'm not for one second saying we haven't a good team as we do but only the great kk team of the 00s could retain it and even nowadays with all the matches its made it even harder. Having said all that Limerick are v driven and are ticking all the right boxes at moment anyway

Well said my friend. A lot of hysteria on here over the last few days and it's takes a Limerick man to come on and give a measured bigger picture view. People claiming we won't win an All Ireland for 10 years, we are way off the pace and we will have a short summer. The simple fact remains that under the current structures Galway and Kilkenny have a sizeable advantage of reaching the knockout stages of the All Ireland series over the five Munster teams. I would be shocked if Kilkenny didn't achieve that when you consider a win at home to Dublin and away to Carlow would probably suffice.

And if we have TJ, Richie Hogan and Cillian Buckley back who would be automatic first teamers and Colin Fennelly, Joey Holden and a possible wild card in Adrian Mullen as additional options we will be a much more formidable proposition.

conor05

BloodyBill wrote: »

Skill wise I don't think there was much of a difference. Actually Kilkenny caught more high ball than Limerick. And Kilkenny won most of the messy rucks.. The hand passing and stick passing of Limerick was much better . Their power was superior aswell. Dan Morrissey is in some shape..unbelievable condition. Kilkenny are a bit off in strength and Conditioning in comparison.
For me the biggest difference was confidence. Kilkenny have very little and it's getting drained more and more. Codys fantastic management of great players doesn't transfer as easily to good to average players. Some of these young guys need to be left on even when they aren't playing well. The template of whipping guys off isn't working right now. Imagine the peace of mind a kid gets when being told ..'you 'll play at least 50mins today so relax '.
Kilkenny could beat Limerick if they meet them again. It's obviously possible they could get another pasting too. What I think the major issue is, is there isnt 3 top performances in a row in that team. And that's ok.
A word on Limerick. They are good. As a county they are abit of an anolomy. With the rugby and sport in general being held in such high regard. Limerick people have a wierd collective memory of that great team of the 1930's and the battles with Kilkenny. So they remember Mick Mackey and Jackie Power and the relentlessness of that era so the winning sits easier with them than it does with say Clare . Their backroom team looks like it's on a different planet to Codys. It's like a professional team coming to play ball. Cody needs a bigger backroom .

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a GAA player as conditioned as Dan Morrissey. Massive power built in the gym but not huge bulk of that slows him down.
Some transformation in that man over the last 18 months.
A few others on the limerick team in similar condition to him too.

mullinr2

conor05 wrote: »

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a GAA player as conditioned as Dan Morrissey. Massive power built in the gym but not huge bulk of that slows him down.
Some transformation in that man over the last 18 months.
A few others on the limerick team in similar condition to him too.

Who's our strength and conditioning coach? Our lads are way off the Galway and Limericks lads of similar age

babyjesus14

mullinr2 wrote: »

Who's our strength and conditioning coach? Our lads are way off the Galway and Limericks lads of similar age

Which Kilkenny players are you specifically talking about baring in mind Dan Morrissey is 25 going on 26? You also got to keep in mind every person is physiologically different.

Lefty Bicek

babyjesus14 wrote: »

People claiming we won't win an All Ireland for 10 years, we are way off the pace and we will have a short summer.

The simple fact remains that under the current structures Galway and Kilkenny have a sizeable advantage of reaching the knockout stages of the All Ireland series over the five Munster teams. I would be shocked if Kilkenny didn't achieve that when you consider a win at home to Dublin and away to Carlow would probably suffice.

Nothing you've said contradicts the opinion that 'we won't win an All Ireland for ten years'.

babyjesus14

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Nothing you've said contradicts the opinion that 'we won't win an All Ireland for ten years'.

You did a nice bit of editing on my original post. I also pointed out that when the club tied and injured players returned we will be a much stronger proposition. Does that not go some way to questioning it?

Does a nonsensical over reaction like that need to be "contradicted" ? I think most people would struggle to predict who is going to win it this year, myself included. Would anyone have predicted two years ago that early in 2019 Limerick would be the standout team? So claiming that the most successful team in the history of the sport is not going to win a single title in the next 10 years is just hysteria in my opinion.

greenspurs

Jaysis tis comical in here ….

If Tipp beat us im leaving this forum !!! ~The top class coaches on here will have a field day...……

Lefty Bicek

babyjesus14 wrote: »

You did a nice bit of editing on my original post. I also pointed out that when the club tied and injured players returned we will be a much stronger proposition. Does that not go some way to questioning it?

Does a nonsensical over reaction like that need to be "contradicted" ? I think most people would struggle to predict who is going to win it this year, myself included. Would anyone have predicted two years ago that early in 2019 Limerick would be the standout team? So claiming that the most successful team in the history of the sport is not going to win a single title in the next 10 years is just hysteria in my opinion.

The second-most successful team in the history of the sport hasn't won a single title in 14 years.

TJ and Richie don't have ten years left.

Buckley according to some won't be back this year at all.

babyjesus14

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

The second-most successful team in the history of the sport hasn't won a single title in 14 years.

TJ and Richie don't have ten years left.

Buckley according to some won't be back this year at all.

So because Cork haven't won it in 13 years that means Kilkenny won't win it for 13 years. Explain that one to me? I could counter that by saying the third most successful won it 3 years ago but that is of no relevance to Kilkenny's likely future success.

Can't see where I said Richie and TJ will be around for 10 years.

"According to some", I think one poster said that and unless he's Dr. Crowley I will work off the assumption that Buckley will be back for the Championship until I hear something official from the camp that suggests otherwise.

Do you think we won't win another senior All Ireland in the next 10 years?

Hawkeye6

greenspurs wrote: »

Jaysis tis comical in here ….

If Tipp beat us im leaving this forum !!! ~The top class coaches on here will have a field day...……

To be fair, it should be fun. GAA is a hobby. Although in Kilkenny it is a passionate hobby. Whether you agree with people or not you have to admit everyone is passionate in Kilkenny. I'm my personal opinion there is only a handful of posters who are actually really knowledgeable, but every poster is passionate here. Compare it to similar forums in other counties. Maybe its because we have a lot more wannabe sports journalists than anyone else. Other counties slag Kilkenny for not being good supporters. I think we are the best. They forget that with our small population we would struggle to fill Croke Park whereas these same counties have a population that could fill it a couple of times over. Our supporters analyse a lot more, maybe that's been the key to our success. Some of our neighbours prefer to showboat and make noise. I enjoy the genuine and knowledgeable analysis. I try to avoid tennis comments stuff. (Don't always succeed). So having said all that I did notice you didn't reply to my reply to your "off the pace" post. I thought it was a good reply (I'm biased) but do you think it comical too and not worth discussion? So much for midterm quiet time!

greenspurs

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

To be fair, it should be fun. GAA is a hobby. Although in Kilkenny it is a passionate hobby. Whether you agree with people or not you have to admit everyone is passionate in Kilkenny. I'm my personal opinion there is only a handful of posters who are actually really knowledgeable, but every poster is passionate here. Compare it to similar forums in other counties. Maybe its because we have a lot more wannabe sports journalists than anyone else. Other counties slag Kilkenny for not being good supporters. I think we are the best. They forget that with our small population we would struggle to fill Croke Park whereas these same counties have a population that could fill it a couple of times over. Our supporters analyse a lot more, maybe that's been the key to our success. Some of our neighbours prefer to showboat and make noise. I enjoy the genuine and knowledgeable analysis. I try to avoid tennis comments stuff. (Don't always succeed). So having said all that I did notice you didn't reply to my reply to your "off the pace" post. I thought it was a good reply (I'm biased) but do you think it comical too and not worth discussion? So much for midterm quiet time!

I meant as in, Off the pace of the game that Limerick were playing at ..


Hey, look, I love the updates, and the differences of opinion on here , and I enjoy your measured , knowledgable posts, but its just others seem to get involved in "I know it all, you know nothing" and they tend to take someones questioning of their OPINION as an insult, ….


Anyway. Keep up the good work

Village87

babyjesus14 wrote: »

So because Cork haven't won it in 13 years that means Kilkenny won't win it for 13 years. Explain that one to me? I could counter that by saying the third most successful won it 3 years ago but that is of no relevance to Kilkenny's likely future success.

Can't see where I said Richie and TJ will be around for 10 years.

"According to some", I think one poster said that and unless he's Dr. Crowley I will work off the assumption that Buckley will be back for the Championship until I hear something official from the camp that suggests otherwise.

Do you think we won't win another senior All Ireland in the next 10 years?

Kilkenny might go 10 years without an All Ireland, if Kilkenny fail this year its year 4 without one.

I think this year is Kilkennys best chance of winning one over the next 2/3 years. Kilkenny WILL be in the QF at worst, after that anything can happen and with a full strength team from there on in anything is possible. Realistically TJ is 32 in a few months an Riche Hogan is finding it harder to keep fully fit and i dont see to many forwards out there to replace them yet.

dastardly00

blackcard wrote: »

In relation to the skill of handpassing, a large proportion of these are thrown balls or at the very least do not have a clear striking motion. I think it was nearly 60 minutes on Sunday before a free was awarded for a throw ball, the ref should have blown
30 times before that. That and the ignoring the steps rule is a blight on hurling

Just in relation to hand-passing (throughout inter-county GAA)... a few weeks ago during RTE coverage of a Saturday evening League match, Anthony Daly, Donal Óg Cusack and Derek McGrath were making the point that almost all of the hand-passes in a match are actually legal and they are not thrown. The hand is too quick for the eye to see it. I thought it was interesting that they were all of the same opinion as I would have believed that a lot of them are illegal.

babyjesus14

Village87 wrote: »

Kilkenny might go 10 years without an All Ireland, if Kilkenny fail this year its year 4 without one.

I think this year is Kilkennys best chance of winning one over the next 2/3 years. Kilkenny WILL be in the QF at worst, after that anything can happen and with a full strength team from there on in anything is possible. Realistically TJ is 32 in a few months an Riche Hogan is finding it harder to keep fully fit and i dont see to many forwards out there to replace them yet.

Indeed they might but I would doubt it will happen but then again I have always been a glass half full type of guy when it comes to hurling.

Not meaning to be pedantic but TJ doesn't turn 32 till next November. While every individual is different after all Cha's best years were in his early 20's but Henry won hurler of the year at 33 and played till he was 35. I would hope we will get at least another two years out of TJ after this year at a high level. Though the situation with Richie is less clear due to injuries. And who knows what level the likes of Leahy, Donnelly, Ryan, Mullen, Cody will be operating at in 2 or 3 years time. Nobody can confidently predict what's going to happen this year so if baffles me how people think they can predict 10 years down the line.

Village87

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Indeed they might but I would doubt it will happen but then again I have always been a glass half full type of guy when it comes to hurling.

Not meaning to be pedantic but TJ doesn't turn 32 till next November. While every individual is different after all Cha's best years were in his early 20's but Henry won hurler of the year at 33 and played till he was 35. I would hope we will get at least another two years out of TJ after this year at a high level. Though the situation with Richie is less clear due to injuries. And who knows what level the likes of Leahy, Donnelly, Ryan, Mullen, Cody will be operating at in 2 or 3 years time. Nobody can confidently predict what's going to happen this year so if baffles me how people think they can predict 10 years down the line.

It is harder to win all Irelands now than previously. Galways introduction to Leinster and the game becoming a real force in the 5 Munster counties and Dublin and Wexford have really made it a competitive competition which is great.. Statistically Kilkenny have won an all ireland every 3 years so we are over due one now but i think they are harder won than in previous years. I do think TJ will win one more before he is finished

BloodyBill

It wont be 10 years. Kilkenny have too much going for them for the wait to be a decade. You dont have many rows and the county board usually support the manager. Your underage up to minor is always strong.Youve no 100 year tradition of rugby taking your best athletes like Limerick has.
The likes of Cork are so big and decentralised that things can just drift, which seems to have happened. I'd argue that you could split Cork into a City and West and North and East and have two teams with enough resources to win All Ireland's. It would actually be easier for them then how it currently is. You'd still have two teams with 260,000 each to pick from.
There seems to be no standout marquee forward allright like Richie or TJ coming through. That would be a concern.

laneykin

I have seen comments all week and listened to it on the radio about there being no standout forward coming up and am honestly shocked that nobody has mentioned Adrian Mullen. Alright he hasn't played with the Kilkenny set up yet but watching him play for Ballyhale and underage on school teams etc he is a very promising hurler and I think will do great things with Kilkenny this year if he gets the chance.

babyjesus14

laneykin wrote: »

I have seen comments all week and listened to it on the radio about there being no standout forward coming up and am honestly shocked that nobody has mentioned Adrian Mullen. Alright he hasn't played with the Kilkenny set up yet but watching him play for Ballyhale and underage on school teams etc he is a very promising hurler and I think will do great things with Kilkenny this year if he gets the chance.

Scroll up three messages 😂. Also mentioned him in one of my posts yesterday as a possible wild card come the summer!

Hawkeye6

Some stats for observation in relation to development focusing on the “A” underage competitions for the last 10 years. Also worth remembering that in the 37 History of the Tony Forristal, the winner has NEVER won the Minor 4 years later (3 yrs in 2018)
Tony Forristal
Cork (4), Tipperary (3), Kilkenny (2), Waterford (1)
Arrabawn
Cork (3), Kilkenny (2), Tipperary (2), Clare (1), Dublin (1), Limerick (1)
Minor
Galway (5), Kilkenny (2), Tipperary (2), Waterford (1)
Under-21
Clare (4), Limerick (2), Tipperary (2), Galway (1), Waterford (1)
Senior
Kilkenny (5), Tipperary (2), Galway (1), Limerick (1), Clare (1)

My observations for their worth.
Kilkenny are very consistently successful at underage up to and including Minor.
Cork are most successful up to Minor. Then???
Tipperary are most consistent overall
Limerick success is almost non-existent prior to Under-21

Kilkenny achilles as many point out is Under-21. Now I’ll throw the club question out again. Under-21 club played between November and December!! Any clubs see an issue in that? Anyone aware of clubs doing any special development at this age group? If the County only get one knock out game for whatever reason, it’s a huge area of underdevelopment for Kilkenny especially without a third level institute of our own. If the clubs are not working on this important age bracket where lads decide between a career and a job that incorporates a hobby… Not too easy for the county management to solve the problem.

Cornerback1

dastardly00 wrote: »

Just in relation to hand-passing (throughout inter-county GAA)... a few weeks ago during RTE coverage of a Saturday evening League match, Anthony Daly, Donal Óg Cusack and Derek McGrath were making the point that almost all of the hand-passes in a match are actually legal and they are not thrown. The hand is too quick for the eye to see it. I thought it was interesting that they were all of the same opinion as I would have believed that a lot of them are illegal.

I saw that. It was very interesting indeed. They were all in unison saying that there is so much pressure on players now from the work rate of the opposition that the player in possession has only a millisecond to 'throw' the sliotar up a few mm's before they strike it with the hand.

Game and workrate is so intense nowadays that players don't get the same time as years ago and in reality, they were saying that as the game gets faster, so to does the handpass. It's so fast, we don't see it with the naked eye.

It'd be a good idea for players to meet referees' top assessors at the start of the season and explain their case to them re: handpasses. Usually it's the referees' unit who 'dictate' to the players.

Regardless, of all this, it's still very hard to see the striking motion in real time at a match.

greenspurs

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Some stats for observation in relation to development focusing on the “A” underage competitions for the last 10 years. Also worth remembering that in the 37 History of the Tony Forristal, the winner has NEVER won the Minor 4 years later (3 yrs in 2018)
Tony Forristal
Cork (4), Tipperary (3), Kilkenny (2), Waterford (1)
Arrabawn
Cork (3), Kilkenny (2), Tipperary (2), Clare (1), Dublin (1), Limerick (1)
Minor
Galway (5), Kilkenny (2), Tipperary (2), Waterford (1)
Under-21
Clare (4), Limerick (2), Tipperary (2), Galway (1), Waterford (1)
Senior
Kilkenny (5), Tipperary (2), Galway (1), Limerick (1), Clare (1)

My observations for their worth.
Kilkenny are very consistently successful at underage up to and including Minor.
Cork are most successful up to Minor. Then???
Tipperary are most consistent overall
Limerick success is almost non-existent prior to Under-21

Kilkenny achilles as many point out is Under-21. Now I’ll throw the club question out again. Under-21 club played between November and December!! Any clubs see an issue in that? Anyone aware of clubs doing any special development at this age group? If the County only get one knock out game for whatever reason, it’s a huge area of underdevelopment for Kilkenny especially without a third level institute of our own. If the clubs are not working on this important age bracket where lads decide between a career and a job that incorporates a hobby… Not too easy for the county management to solve the problem.

and speaking of underdevelopment, add in Intermediate .
Only Kilkenny and Cork entered teams.
Does anyone know why it is so disregarded?
Is it seen as a team just made up of lads too old for U21 , and not good enough for Senior?
Surely it could be used better (by other counties especially) for blooding players in an inter county environment ?
Or would it be just more games being played to the detriment of the Clubs ?

babyjesus14

greenspurs wrote: »

and speaking of underdevelopment, add in Intermediate .
Only Kilkenny and Cork entered teams.
Does anyone know why it is so disregarded?
Is it seen as a team just made up of lads too old for U21 , and not good enough for Senior?
Surely it could be used better (by other counties especially) for blooding players in an inter county environment ?
Or would it be just more games being played to the detriment of the Clubs ?

They relaxed the rules a number of years back and a few counties used it as a Senior Development/Under 25 team most notably Tipperary and Galway who won All Irelands using that approach. And as far as I can recollect Kilkenny used a similar approach when they won it two years ago.

I guess when it came down to it there just wasn't enough room in the calendar for County boards to take it too seriously and then there is also the additional cost of running a team that was generating very little income.

JJs Left Hand

Blaming the clubs for the state of U21 in the county is a bit rich when the county board schedule it as straight knock out in the depths of winter. Do you want clubs training at the height of summer for a games that's 6 months away.? The U19 and minor ended up a farce last year due to Kilkennys involvement in the minor back door..
So exactly what are clubs supposed to do? It's the county boards responsibility to schedule the tournaments and enforce the fulfillment of fixtures

babyjesus14

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Blaming the clubs for the state of U21 in the county is a bit rich when the county board schedule it as straight knock out in the depths of winter. Do you want clubs training at the height of summer for a games that's 6 months away.? The U19 and minor ended up a farce last year due to Kilkennys involvement in the minor back door..
So exactly what are clubs supposed to do? It's the county boards responsibility to schedule the tournaments and enforce the fulfillment of fixtures

In fairness the Under 19 was only ever likely to be a one off filler while the gap between Minor and under 21 was 4 years. It got played off in the end.

I know the Minor league had to be regigged due to the new structures at Inter County level but there will always be trickle down teething problems when new structures are put in place.