Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

kyler_87

Red all day long. Just take the incident on its own merits. Richie cocked the elbow intentionally, I'd have more sympathy if it was straight shoulder contact

BOSTIK

bruschi wrote: »

I often find this thread amusing in so much that there are such polarising views from supporters of the same county. I actually think some of the best posters are on here. Whilst I also think some of the worst posters are also on here. Seems to be no middle ground!

But some of ye are embarrassing yourselves and your other followers. And what's worse, but some of the former Kilkenny players are completely embarrassing in what they are throwing out on social media. Barretts tackle wasnt a red card offence. It was a borderline yellow, which to be honest, I felt it should have been given as a yellow. Richies was an open and shut red card. All this bluster about he didnt see it, video ref and Dickie Murphy telling him it was a red. Christ lads, give it a rest.

I didnt expect Kilkenny to make either final, so great credit is due to them both for that. I didnt expect either to win, but I also didnt expect either to be well beaten. Still, it has been a decent year for Kilkenny despite the naysayers and forecasters of doom.

I think this is very fair comment.

JJs Left Hand is spot on too.

Village87 is being a bit pessimistic about KK's immediate future, KK have improved year on year from 2017 and I'd expect some of the younger forwards to be more physically ready for senior intercounty hurling in 2020.

SteJer

Village87 wrote: »

The whole Richie Hogan thing is completely overshadowing Kilkennys inept performance on the field and on the sideline.
Kilkenny had 5/6 lads in there 30s another 5/6 lads between 27/29 and badly need new players to step up. I highlighted the lack of class on the Kilkenny team,we rely on teams having off days and dogging other teams and over relying on TJ to get wins.
I can see things getting a lot worse before they improve. There must 10/11 lads between Dicksboro and and Bennetsbridge on the panel and Buckley is the only one getting a game and he is in big bother as his mobility is leaving him down. The panel is very poor and TJ is 33 next year. I am not very optimistic for the future.

Also our style of hurling is terrible

To be fair we were level at the time of the red card. If Tipp had been well ahead at that stage one could only assume they would have gone on to win easily anyway. However, the fact it was level and the wind died down in the second half means we will never know for sure what the real outcome would have been.

SteJer

kyler_87 wrote: »

Red all day long. Just take the incident on its own merits. Richie cocked the elbow intentionally, I'd have more sympathy if it was straight shoulder contact

Not many people are disputing that. However, if one head high tackle is punished by brandishing a red card Barrett’s head high tackle on Hogan should have been punished with a red card too.

dirkmeister

I think Barrett’s challenge on Hogan was a yellow.

I also think Tipp’s backs should have seen at least 2 yellows before the Kilkenny red.

Barry Heffernan just dragged TJ to the ground at one stage.

I couldn’t believe Owens wasn’t taking out a card there.

Our forwards were winning frees during a horrible, wet afternoon. Lads saying Kilkenny weren’t scoring from play need to look at where those frees were awarded.

Bar the goal, Tipp weren’t scoring from play either.

Whether or not we’d have won is something we’ll never know, but I saw one lad claim that Kilkenny still had 6 backs so the red card didn’t influence the result. Absolutely mad stuff.

Hope Joey Holden’s injury isn’t too bad. He was excellent I thought.

premiertipp

tibruit wrote: »

You know, as I was at the game and I haven`t watched the full replay, I`m not exactly sure. But I`m guessing that Tipp were a point ahead. Given yere inclination to buckle down the final stretch in tight games over the years, I`d say we were still in with a shout until the ref intervened.[/quote

Tipp didn't buckle against Wex when down to 14 men and 5 points down....I was at the match in Lower Cusack so didn't see red card incident until later...we could argue all day whether it was red/yellow...what struck me at the time and since was the response from KK...at half time we all were talking about how Cody will have them fired up for the second half...
I couldn't understand the tactic of playing ball after ball down to the extra man..no working through the lines..no running at Tipp...it was like there was no Plan B ....contrast how Tipp mentor ran on quickly to switch Paudie and Seamus K....don't know what Cody and mentors were doing...it was obvious tactics needed to change after sending off

JohnCougar

Village87 wrote: »

The whole Richie Hogan thing is completely overshadowing Kilkennys inept performance on the field and on the sideline.
Kilkenny had 5/6 lads in there 30s another 5/6 lads between 27/29 and badly need new players to step up. I highlighted the lack of class on the Kilkenny team,we rely on teams having off days and dogging other teams and over relying on TJ to get wins.
I can see things getting a lot worse before they improve. There must 10/11 lads between Dicksboro and and Bennetsbridge on the panel and Buckley is the only one getting a game and he is in big bother as his mobility is leaving him down. The panel is very poor and TJ is 33 next year. I am not very optimistic for the future.

Also our style of hurling is terrible

Whats your point about the Dicksboro and Bennettsbridge lads on the panel??

In relation to Cillian Buckley, he played matches last year with injections in his knee when he should not have played.
He played 3 weeks in a row against Galway twice and Limerick. He felt he had to play as he was captain.
Cillian has killed himself to get back to where he was but if finding it difficult at the moment to do that. Hopefully it will come back soon.

tibruit

bruschi wrote: »

It's very clear.



Plus the appropriate rule would be the following:


some are trying to portray this as a "strike" under rule 5.17 which has a red card offence to it. It wasnt. It was an attempted flick of the ball that missed. Therefore in my opinion it was not a deliberate attempt to hit a player, but it was a careless use of the hurl. Multiple players get hit playing hurling. It doesnt automatically mean that because you get hit or suffer a head injury that it is a red card. The ball was there, he tried play it and missed. IMO it should have been a yellow for careless use, however you could strongly argue there was no intent and therefore no need to issue a card.

Richie Hogan made no attempt whatsoever to either play the ball or the man by legal tackling means. By throwing up the elbow in the manner he did, whilst also connecting with the players head, automatically means that is a red.

I was on about this earlier and it was rule 5.32 that I had in mind, but 5.17 covers it too because I don`t see how Barrett could have connected with the ball without first striking Hogan in the head. Surely a player in front is entitled to some duty of protection from an opponent taking ahead high swing from behind him. And it clearly wasn`t a flick.

The "careless" rule is benign here because it doesn`t deal with an injury. Once you have a resultant injury then it`s surely reckless. You don`t want to be sending anyone off early on in an All Ireland final if you can avoid it and the sensible position in all this is that both incidents should have been yellows even though they were both technically reds.

With regard to what someone else said about a video ref in the stand. Owens was looking up into the stand and holding in his earpiece before he made the decision as if he was getting info from somewhere. If there was a video ref, first of all shouldn`t that be common knowledge beforehand and also why didn`t he call Owens attention to the earlier Barrett incident? I`d say that if Owens had a clearer understanding of the early incident and had given Barrett a yellow for it, then he would have given Hogan the benefit of the doubt too.

Mantis Toboggan

Hitchens wrote: »

Barret's play acting yesterday will follow him in the years to come like a bad smell. If a KK player did something like that I'd disown him.


the match outcome was decided right there, a full half of 14 men against 15 (or some might say 16)

Some man to play act after taking an elbow to the jaw.

Lads ye were beaten by a better team, time to move on.

Ye are in transition, done fantastically well to even make the final.

This is a young kilkenny team, they'll be all the better for it over the next few years, I've no doubt ye'll win one in the next 3 years.

Gentleman Off The Pitch

Unfortunately we and Richie cannot complain about him getting the line since it qualifies as a red as per the rules, there was contact with arm to the faceguard.

By it is fair to question why the same rules were not applied for the worse incidents that occurred during the year, even when the same referee was involved, and also to acknowledge the difference in the behaviour of Hogan when clattered by Cooper vs Barrett's reaction when clipped by Hogan and the repeated checking if the ref has made his mind up before deciding to jump up afterwards. Sadly it is clear which type of reaction pays dividends

The sending off devastated the team, surprisingly, how badly we dealt with the blow is the most disappointing thing.

blackcard

Last Stop wrote: »

Fort Stranger wrote: »

I think when he walked back to look at Barrett and he was still lying down that made his mind up.

Barrett was standing up when he went back to check. Don’t think there was too much wrong with him tbh. Naturally he had to go through the concussion protocols.

The concussion protocol states that if a player has suspected concussion, he should not return to play. Barrett says that the reason he stayed down so long was because he was dazed. Barrett also stated that he thought the blow to Hogan was from his wrist rather than his hurl.

mullinr2

I think some people need to be a bit more gracious in defeat. Any team who wins the All Ireland are considered the best team for the year. Tipp won and were the best team this year. They scored over 30pts in what was it, 5 games. They deserve huge credit.
They have hammered us in two finals and it is very hard to take, but we need to get over it.
Teams get players sent off all the time and some go on to win matches. Tipp went down to 14 against Wexford plus 5 points down and still won. When we went down to 14 men it highlighted our limitations. We do not have enough point/goal getters on the team to win an All Ireland.

tibruit

premiertipp wrote: »

tibruit wrote: »

You know, as I was at the game and I haven`t watched the full replay, I`m not exactly sure. But I`m guessing that Tipp were a point ahead. Given yere inclination to buckle down the final stretch in tight games over the years, I`d say we were still in with a shout until the ref intervened.[/quote

Tipp didn't buckle against Wex when down to 14 men and 5 points down....I was at the match in Lower Cusack so didn't see red card incident until later...we could argue all day whether it was red/yellow...what struck me at the time and since was the response from KK...at half time we all were talking about how Cody will have them fired up for the second half...
I couldn't understand the tactic of playing ball after ball down to the extra man..no working through the lines..no running at Tipp...it was like there was no Plan B ....contrast how Tipp mentor ran on quickly to switch Paudie and Seamus K....don't know what Cody and mentors were doing...it was obvious tactics needed to change after sending off

Tipp beat Wexford because they are a fair bit better than them overall and because Wexford ran out of steam after 60 minutes because they continually ran the ball upfield in 2s and 3s instead of letting the ball do the work. It`s a consequence of the dreaded sweeper system and why ultimately the system fails in latter stages of the championship. If that had been a league game in March I`d say that after the sending off, Tipp would have thrown their hands up in the air and said "Sure maybe we`ll beat Cork the next day". Then you`d have the sweeper advocates on about how great they all are when the reality is that when you get to Croke Park in August with a dry ball and no back door for the opposition, then it`s a completely different story.

I`m pissed about Hogan being sent off in the final because it ruined the game as a contest and a spectacle. However I don`t begrudge ye winning it because I like the way ye play and ultimately ye`re up there with Limerick at the top of the table and unlike some of the doom merchants on here, I think that all things being equal we`re there or thereabouts too.

After Hogans exit, I didn`t see how we could win, given what was required to limit the supply to ye`re inside line. Some have said we should have worked the ball out from the back, but ultimately when faced with the extra man, the turnovers and clearances would find some of our defenders out of position and there`s only going to be one result to all of that. There`s no doubt we were wasteful with deliveries and in hindsight I think we could have played without any full forward line at all and just deliver ball onto a crowded Tipp half back line. That would have made the aerial contests more competitive and we might have hoped to run at ye from there with any possession. But realistically after the sending off, the game became a dead rubber.

Saddleview

https://twitter.com/hogie81/status/1163548647415586816?s=20

1373

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Some man to play act after taking an elbow to the jaw.

Lads ye were beaten by a better team, time to move on.

Ye are in transition, done fantastically well to even make the final.

This is a young kilkenny team, they'll be all the better for it over the next few years, I've no doubt ye'll win one in the next 3 years.

Looks shoulder to shoulder to me

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Refs make mistakes. That there was once a mistake made in the past re a red card doesn’t mean that this decision was unjustified. If that’s the criteria then no cards are justified if the ref has previously made a mistake.

Kilkenny were clobbered anyway. 14 men or no.

Hawkeye6

Thank you to all the players and management teams of both the Senior and Minor Kilkenny teams for giving us a great year of intercounty hurling yet again and making sure we got the maximum number of teams to All-Ireland day. Second best is very good, not the best but definitely very good. (I’m sure Limerick, Cork, Waterford, Wexford and Clare would love one of those places, bearing in mind Limerick and Cork were the favourites at the start of the year)

Congratulations to Tipperary. The record will state Tipperary All-Ireland senior hurling champions 2019, the best in Ireland, similar to what it has been for us 36 times in the past. Not to be forgotten!

As regards the red card for Hogan. Yes it was red. Kilkenny people need to accept it. As per current cold rules and on the VIDEO EVIDENCE it is red. This applies to any head strike, either accidental or intentionally. No argument!!! However, in REAL TIME, it is Not red. Nobody can honestly claim that red was on their mind. To be fair to both ref and linesman, I do not believe they made this decision. The decision could only be made by someone who had access to replay the video over a period of one minute and relay the call, hence the delay.

Conspiracy??? Look back at the game and check the last few minutes when Callanan pushed Lawlor in front of the Nally. No free. No signal of advantage. Callanan heads towards goal with the ball and is obviously fouled himself. Referee blows the whistle and strangely gives free to Kilkenny where Lawlor was fouled. Now what made him go back?? No linesman or umpire intervention was there? Shouts from Kilkenny Supporters don’t usually change the ref’s mind. Strange.

James Owens only a few minutes prior to sending Richie off, blew immediately when Barret hit Richie across the head with the hurley. (Remember accident/intent are the same above the head) He saw it and blew. He clearly saw Richie was bleeding from the head, so no doubts of where the strike was. He immediately sent Richie to the line (Is Richie the first player to be sent to the line twice in the One All-Ireland final?). James Owens incorrectly applied common sense and didn’t even give a yellow card. Richie was a man and did not lay down crying. Even the perpetrator Cathal Barrett is on record as saying any strike to the head must be a red card. Moments later, and coincidently the same two players are involved again. Barrett lays down crying after suffering a “massive concussion”. The ref and linesman are not convinced. Ref looks at Barrett. This was irrelevant when he looked at Richie. The message is relayed to Owens during that minute break, “apply the rules to the letter of the law” this time. “Rules are rules”. Which he did. The common sense which he has applied in the past not just in this game was taken off the table. Owens normally doesn’t do red in these situations to be fair, often to our angst. If there was no communication, it would then reflect James Owens in a very poor light.

For those that think this could not possibly happen… Who knew before the semi-final that play could be brought back by Hawkeye (aka Dickie Murphy) for a ball that has gone over the bar (Brian Hogan catches). I certainly didn’t. This is new. And it’s happened twice now. It didn’t happen when Eoin Murphy caught Pauric Mahoney’s free in Thurles a few years ago. Who knows, real time versus video… The Issue here is people don’t realise VAR (I hate the Cromwellian Premiership term) is unofficially in operation for the All-Ireland final. Tipp lads might be smiling but the next time it could be them or some other county. So really ALL counties should be asking the questions surrounding the decision making process for not sending off Barrett and then sending off Richie. It is relevant although it will not change history for us.

I personally think it is great that the Tipp lads (and others) really believe they would have still won 15v15. I personally have no idea. I’d like to think we would have, but to be fair we didn’t handle the 14 man situation very well. These Tipp lads should really do the lotto, if they are so certain without seeing. As a Kilkenny supporter I would encourage them to keep thinking that way. Opportunity to get in under the radar again next year. Of course ye would have won handy. Don’t mind us lads.

Two other observations from Sunday. The occasion is too big for Under-17 finals! It is really not fair on any Under-16 (possibly 15) on the losing side from any county to be distraught in front of so many people, both there and watching on TV. Once again, Liam Sheedy showed no respect to Brian Cody by sauntering off to the middle of Croke Park before the customary congratulatory handshake at the final whistle. I have no problem with the immediate celebration with his management team, but Cody should not have to chase him so far to congratulate him. I’m sure that a mental note has been made.

Congratulations to our Camogie team who did beat Tipp with 15v15, no assumptions needed there. Good luck to them in Final v Galway.

MfMan

SteJer wrote: »

Of course there is. Barrett struck Hogan on the head with his hurl and didn’t receive a red card. Hogan struck Barrett on the head with his elbow and received a red card. Tipp have James Owens to thank for winning this All-Ireland and I think they already know that.

In a spirit of revisionism can we also allocate an asterisk mark against Tipp's 1989 win because... you know...

Final word from me on it; Cillian Buckley's elbow in the semi' v Limerick was definitely worse than Hogan's, and if the latter's was a Red then Buckley's was too. Would Limerick subsequently have beaten 14-man KK than day?

Gentleman Off The Pitch

MfMan wrote: »

In a spirit of revisionism can we also allocate an asterisk mark against Tipp's 1989 win because... you know...

Final word from me on it; Cillian Buckley's elbow in the semi' v Limerick was definitely worse than Hogan's, and if the latter's was a Red then Buckley's was too. Would Limerick subsequently have beaten 14-man KK than day?

If Buckley's wasn't a red, then Hogan wasn't either? See, it's the inconsistency that's the biggest problem

adrian522

MfMan wrote: »

Final word from me on it; Cillian Buckley's elbow in the semi' v Limerick was definitely worse than Hogan's, and if the latter's was a Red then Buckley's was too. Would Limerick subsequently have beaten 14-man KK than day?

Yeah, Buckleys was one of about 5 such incidents this year but I can only think of the one red card. I agree if Buckley had been sent off Limerick probably would have won.

BOSTIK

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Thank you to all the players and management teams of both the Senior and Minor Kilkenny teams for giving us a great year of intercounty hurling yet again and making sure we got the maximum number of teams to All-Ireland day. Second best is very good, not the best but definitely very good. (I’m sure Limerick, Cork, Waterford, Wexford and Clare would love one of those places, bearing in mind Limerick and Cork were the favourites at the start of the year)

Congratulations to Tipperary. The record will state Tipperary All-Ireland senior hurling champions 2019, the best in Ireland, similar to what it has been for us 36 times in the past. Not to be forgotten!

As regards the red card for Hogan. Yes it was red. Kilkenny people need to accept it. As per current cold rules and on the VIDEO EVIDENCE it is red. This applies to any head strike, either accidental or intentionally. No argument!!! However, in REAL TIME, it is Not red. Nobody can honestly claim that red was on their mind. To be fair to both ref and linesman, I do not believe they made this decision. The decision could only be made by someone who had access to replay the video over a period of one minute and relay the call, hence the delay.

Conspiracy??? Look back at the game and check the last few minutes when Callanan pushed Lawlor in front of the Nally. No free. No signal of advantage. Callanan heads towards goal with the ball and is obviously fouled himself. Referee blows the whistle and strangely gives free to Kilkenny where Lawlor was fouled. Now what made him go back?? No linesman or umpire intervention was there? Shouts from Kilkenny Supporters don’t usually change the ref’s mind. Strange.

James Owens only a few minutes prior to sending Richie off, blew immediately when Barret hit Richie across the head with the hurley. (Remember accident/intent are the same above the head) He saw it and blew. He clearly saw Richie was bleeding from the head, so no doubts of where the strike was. He immediately sent Richie to the line (Is Richie the first player to be sent to the line twice in the One All-Ireland final?). James Owens incorrectly applied common sense and didn’t even give a yellow card. Richie was a man and did not lay down crying. Even the perpetrator Cathal Barrett is on record as saying any strike to the head must be a red card. Moments later, and coincidently the same two players are involved again. Barrett lays down crying after suffering a “massive concussion”. The ref and linesman are not convinced. Ref looks at Barrett. This was irrelevant when he looked at Richie. The message is relayed to Owens during that minute break, “apply the rules to the letter of the law” this time. “Rules are rules”. Which he did. The common sense which he has applied in the past not just in this game was taken off the table. Owens normally doesn’t do red in these situations to be fair, often to our angst. If there was no communication, it would then reflect James Owens in a very poor light.

For those that think this could not possibly happen… Who knew before the semi-final that play could be brought back by Hawkeye (aka Dickie Murphy) for a ball that has gone over the bar (Brian Hogan catches). I certainly didn’t. This is new. And it’s happened twice now. It didn’t happen when Eoin Murphy caught Pauric Mahoney’s free in Thurles a few years ago. Who knows, real time versus video… The Issue here is people don’t realise VAR (I hate the Cromwellian Premiership term) is unofficially in operation for the All-Ireland final. Tipp lads might be smiling but the next time it could be them or some other county. So really ALL counties should be asking the questions surrounding the decision making process for not sending off Barrett and then sending off Richie. It is relevant although it will not change history for us.

I personally think it is great that the Tipp lads (and others) really believe they would have still won 15v15. I personally have no idea. I’d like to think we would have, but to be fair we didn’t handle the 14 man situation very well. These Tipp lads should really do the lotto, if they are so certain without seeing. As a Kilkenny supporter I would encourage them to keep thinking that way. Opportunity to get in under the radar again next year. Of course ye would have won handy. Don’t mind us lads.

Two other observations from Sunday. The occasion is too big for Under-17 finals! It is really not fair on any Under-16 (possibly 15) on the losing side from any county to be distraught in front of so many people, both there and watching on TV. Once again, Liam Sheedy showed no respect to Brian Cody by sauntering off to the middle of Croke Park before the customary congratulatory handshake at the final whistle. I have no problem with the immediate celebration with his management team, but Cody should not have to chase him so far to congratulate him. I’m sure that a mental note has been made.

Congratulations to our Camogie team who did beat Tipp with 15v15, no assumptions needed there. Good luck to them in Final v Galway.

You were going great till the 3rd paragraph.

Powerhouse

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

However, in REAL TIME, it is Not red. Nobody can honestly claim that red was on their mind.

What a load of nonsense. If red was not on someone’s mind Hogan wouldn’t have been sent off.

Tombo2001

MfMan wrote: »

In a spirit of revisionism can we also allocate an asterisk mark against Tipp's 1989 win because... you know...

Final word from me on it; Cillian Buckley's elbow in the semi' v Limerick was definitely worse than Hogan's, and if the latter's was a Red then Buckley's was too. Would Limerick subsequently have beaten 14-man KK than day?

Well look - the counter argument to "Tipp would have won easily anyway" is that the first half of the Limerick match was very similar to the first half of the Tipp match.

With the exception of the sending off, and the Fennelly goal chance.

Personally, I was neutral as to who won these games. I just wanted to see a good match.

In the semi-final, I believe Kilkenny beat a team that had better players than them. They beat them by disrupting them, and by disrupting their game plan.

They set out to do the same against Tipp, but with a man down they couldn't do it. It just wasn't going to work.

If KK had a player sent off against Limerick, yes I reckon that Limericks short passing game would have been much more difficult to deal with in that second half and they would have been comfortable winners.

I have and had no problem with the result, or the red card. But it just annoyed me when I saw Cathal Barrett commenting about it, given what had happened earlier.

To go back 10 years - in the 2009 final the red card was a major moment in that game, and while you had sympathy for the guy, there was no debate about it - but for sure I don't remember any KK player coming out afterwards saying "yeah he deserved the red".

JohnCougar

We all have to get real here and look at the way the hurling rules have gone.

The one thing that is missing is consistency among the referees on these rules.

You can't touch the head or pull the helmet.

Under the rules Richie Hogan was sent off correctly.

Cathal Barrett should have got a red for his tackle on Richie.

Jason Forde should have got a red for his tackle on Eoin Murphy.

Cillian Buckley only got a yellow for his elbow v Limerick, should have been a red.

Bill Copper only a got a yellow for his tackle on Richie Hogan and should have been a red in the Cork game.

Field east

SteJer wrote: »

That photo clearly shows the linesman could not have known for sure if Hogan connected with Barrett or not as Hogan himself would have unsighted him. I’m convinced an official watched the incident on TV and made the decision. Also, Barrett crouching down made it easier for Hogan to connect with his head.

If you saw a player coming towards you and u are in no position to meet the shoulder or whatever head on I would expect that you would do as Barrett did - pull yourself in ,arms tightened up head pulled down to the neck, crouch down a bit until the body is now ‘ more compact’ to best withstand whatever is coming at it. All of the muscles would be tightened up. I assume that u are not suggestiog that Barrett crouched, if he did, to make sure that Hogan would give him a ‘bit of a clip’

bruschi

JohnCougar wrote: »

Jason Forde should have got a red for his tackle on Eoin Murphy.

ah here. more of this crap still going. There is no way in any rules or regulations that Forde should have got a red. He put his arms out and Murphy lunged in and grabbed Forde and threw himself down. Mark Fanning did something very similar in the semi final with Callinan. To be honest, they are borderline fouls, its a means to try force a free where a player just charges in, grabs and arm and falls over. It was in no way shape or form a red card.

SteJer

MfMan wrote: »

In a spirit of revisionism can we also allocate an asterisk mark against Tipp's 1989 win because... you know...

Final word from me on it; Cillian Buckley's elbow in the semi' v Limerick was definitely worse than Hogan's, and if the latter's was a Red then Buckley's was too. Would Limerick subsequently have beaten 14-man KK than day?

No because Hegarty should have received a red card for his head high tackle too. I'm sure people see where all the debate on here is going, round and round like a circle. I think that shows exactly the point being made about the red card shown to Hogan. Too many head high tackles went unpunished all year. In the biggest game of the year someone got in the ear of Owens and instructed him to send Hogan off but Owens himself did nothing about Barrett's head high tackle on Hogan. If every head high tackle in 2019 was punished in the exact same way I'd have no complaints. However, this is not the case so people are entitled to feel aggrieved.

Realt Dearg Sec

Well lads, with a couple of days to let reality settle in, is it maybe time to park the endless red card discussion? I think that if KK want to step up and win it next year there needs to be much more reflection on how we responded, rather than lingering on the rights and wrongs of the decision itself.

Brian Hogan was once asked something about who was reffing one of our matches, and in the interview he said that this was a decision that was out of their control, so they just didn't pay it any attention. The point was psychological: players need to focus on the controllables, the things you can influence, rather than the things you can't, which are just excuses at the end of the day.

Every match, as the cliche goes, "takes on a life of its own". All that means is that you need to be able to adapt to circumstance, even when that circumstance is sh1te. Whether the card was right or not, once it happened it was not a controllable element any more, the question is how you adapt to the new circumstance. Coming into the Cork match the big criticism of our team was a lack of adaptability, a predictable approach. We actually started that match badly, with the full backs exposed. But we very quickly adapted to the reality and pushed on.

A lot of people saying Tipp were getting on top anyway, so we would have lost. I don't see how anyone can say that about a one point game, if they paid any attention to our previous two matches, but whatever. We don't know. What I do know is that there's plenty of teams have adjusted to being down to 14 men. Could we have won it? Probably not, but a hammering wasn't inevitable.

Faced with new circumstances, our team went into the dressing room, and we can assume they discussed what the new plan was. In a way, going direct isn't without logic, probably thinking it will save the legs a bit, and you'll take your chances in a 50/50 contest for high ball, like the good old days. But it could also be read as a terrible decision, since we had demonstrated an inability to win that kind of ball all through Leinster. To me the best approach was to work it short, up to midfield, and by-pass the sweeper that way. Would it have worked? No idea, hard to see a win, but it would have involved us having more possession, not relying on high ball, and not dropping said high ball on a half back line that could go completely gung ho after everything because they now had a sweeper and six forwards.

If the lesson we learn from Sunday is that Richie suffered an injustice that ruined the match and Tipp have an asterisk beside their all Ireland and Barrett isn't manly, then we're the eejits. The lesson is about how you adapt to adversity. Because that's basically what hurling is, when it comes down to it. If we lost by a point or two with 14 men, the complaining about the decision would be more warranted (ultimately I think it was the correct decision, but if so it was literally the first correct decision all year on that kind of incident). But there's a lot more to be analysed, about why we reverted to type in adversity, why our decision making abandoned us, reminiscent of the Leinster final where the decision was going for goals when we had plenty of time to claw it back.

If we focus on the controllable aspects of the game, I don't see why we won't be back next year ready to unleash hell on that shower again. Hogan has another year in him, I've no doubt about it, he was playing very well. Look at how much improved our backs have been this year, even on Sunday when we were getting trounced they held their shape and nerve, only the tactics weren't right when they were clearing. Look at Billy Ryan, Leahy, Maher, all fantastic substitutes, TJ is going NOWHERE. Look at Adrian Mullen, and how fantastic a player he is going top become (had a bad day Sunday which there are clearly extenuating circumstances for). We completely overshot our expectations this year, the semi was as satisfying as any All Ireland win to be honest. I hope Limerick spend the winter whining that they would have made a better go of it in the final than we did because we'll probably play them again next year and if we do I think we'll beat them again. By more.

If we concentrate on the actual lessons. There's no lesson to be learned from the Hogan incident. There's plenty from the rest of the match.

SteJer

bruschi wrote: »

ah here. more of this crap still going. There is no way in any rules or regulations that Forde should have got a red. He put his arms out and Murphy lunged in and grabbed Forde and threw himself down. Mark Fanning did something very similar in the semi final with Callinan. To be honest, they are borderline fouls, its a means to try force a free where a player just charges in, grabs and arm and falls over. It was in no way shape or form a red card.

Could it not be said then that Barrett lowered his head down to Hogan's elbow? What's your opinion of Barrett's hurl across Hogan's face? There is no way to prove intent or otherwise on either players part so the same punishment should have been given.

Whiplash85

tibruit wrote: »

premiertipp wrote: »

Tipp beat Wexford because they are a fair bit better than them overall and because Wexford ran out of steam after 60 minutes because they continually ran the ball upfield in 2s and 3s instead of letting the ball do the work. It`s a consequence of the dreaded sweeper system and why ultimately the system fails in latter stages of the championship. If that had been a league game in March I`d say that after the sending off, Tipp would have thrown their hands up in the air and said "Sure maybe we`ll beat Cork the next day". Then you`d have the sweeper advocates on about how great they all are when the reality is that when you get to Croke Park in August with a dry ball and no back door for the opposition, then it`s a completely different story.

I`m pissed about Hogan being sent off in the final because it ruined the game as a contest and a spectacle. However I don`t begrudge ye winning it because I like the way ye play and ultimately ye`re up there with Limerick at the top of the table and unlike some of the doom merchants on here, I think that all things being equal we`re there or thereabouts too.

After Hogans exit, I didn`t see how we could win, given what was required to limit the supply to ye`re inside line. Some have said we should have worked the ball out from the back, but ultimately when faced with the extra man, the turnovers and clearances would find some of our defenders out of position and there`s only going to be one result to all of that. There`s no doubt we were wasteful with deliveries and in hindsight I think we could have played without any full forward line at all and just deliver ball onto a crowded Tipp half back line. That would have made the aerial contests more competitive and we might have hoped to run at ye from there with any possession. But realistically after the sending off, the game became a dead rubber.

Completely wrong. Tipp won that game again Wexford because they deviated from what was working well. They went long with 12 puckouts in the closing 15 minutes losing 12 of them with the 3 Mahers accounting for 10 of those. If they kept playing through the lines they would have probably own. They were in reality a Mathew O Hanlon hand pass away from from an All Ireland.

No game becomes a dead rubber after a sending off. There are countless examples over the course of GAA history where team with numerical disadvantage can overcome this through even more hard work and reorganisation.

In reality the levee was about to burst for Kilkenny much like in 10 and 16 when they got annihilated in those finals too. Kilkenny threw everything at Tipp. They probably needed to be 4 or 5 points up at half time with the wind. Tipp had gone a point ahead after 32 minutes before the sending off and after a couple of adjustments. The Niall O Meara goal was the killer for Kilkenny. Haing done all the hurling for 20 minutes they all of a sudden found themselves a point down and the heads went down.