Prostitution: when is it going to be legalised and regulated?

Just wondering what the next campaign will be and this one seems like a nice safe one which won't affect the personal finances of "liberals" - unlike say a campaign to create a fair and equitable health system for all, which would be the biggest societal and ethical advance in Ireland since free education was introduced but would increase taxes and prevent our so-called liberal reformers from using their private health insurance to skip the health queue over somebody in more need, of course. Can't be having that sort of real reform!

So, keeping it safe, what possible arguments are there for the current situation of illegal prostitution and unregulated/unsafe/unhealthy brothels? It seems like madness that some of the most marginalised and vulnerable people in society can be exploited in so many ways. Surely, if only regulated prostitution and brothels were allowed it would benefit both the workers and clients - and damage the parasites who are currently exploiting all these people in sub standard accommodation? And if regulated strictly, it would reduce not only sexually transmitted diseases but it could provide supports to tackle the drug addiction issues associated with it. The innocent victims of this - i.e. families of clients who pass on STDs to them - would also be better off if prostitution were regulated. And the state would collect taxes, and extortionate profits for criminals would decrease. Yes, there will always be illegal brothels undercutting regulated, healthier legal brothels - the regulation will add to the cost - but that's for legislators and/or CAB to deal with. By regulating it, many lives will be improved.

I realise that in Britain prostitution, while legalised per se, is not regulated and that brothels are still illegal there and this divergence from whatever Britain does would shock what passes as "liberals" in Ireland. However, it makes much more sense to regulate prostitution and brothels (or whatever one wants to call them) than to just sacrifice the workers to the whims of the "private market" by making it "legal" but pretending the exploitation is not happening.

Good summary of existing European laws concerning prostitution: Prostitution in Europe

What possible arguments are there for not legalising and, more importantly, regulating prostitution in Ireland?

Herpes Free Since03

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

The Australian model is probably the way to go, regulated, sti checks and both parties have to be in agreement before the deal

jcorr

There's realistic sex dolls you can buy now. Must safer than a visit to a sex worker

thebull85

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

jcorr wrote: »

There's realistic sex dolls you can buy now. Must safer than a visit to a sex worker

I'll take your word for it.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

suicide_circus

Women need the right to choose what do do with their own bodies. As do men.

suicide_circus

Absolutely. Trust women.

pleas advice

Herpes Free Since03 wrote: »

The Australian model is probably the way to go, regulated, sti checks and both parties have to be in agreement before the deal

Who is this model? Got a number for her?

VainHard Bendix

Be careful because once it goes legal your wife will have to pay tax

nullzero

Because regulation of prostitution is the biggest issue facing the average Irish person who can't afford to have roof over their head.

Avatar MIA

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

The most stunning woman in the world holds no appeal for me if cash needs to be exchanged.

However, I'm firmly of the belief this industry should be legalised and regulated. A red light zone in cities with regular medical check ups.

As a nation we're losing the ability to turn a blind eye and legislate for reality.

Legalising and regulating prostitution simply makes something that's been happening since the conception of the barter system and will go on as long as humans exist as safe as possible for all those involved.

jcorr

thebull85 wrote: »

jcorr wrote: »

There's realistic sex dolls you can buy now. Must safer than a visit to a sex worker

I'll take your word for it.

https://youtu.be/j22Lvw8USCM

Lucifer_666

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

I personally think its a good idea to legalise prostitution but it would get a much bumpier ride (if you pardon the pun) than say the Abortion referendum this week. For a start the abortion yes vote had all the SJW crowds behind it particularly the feminist groups which greatly helped them win. Prostitution has most of these groups divided at best in fact I would wager most are against it. Every time I see this topic discussed you will find feminist groups or certain rape or female charities talk about how women are forced into prostitution. They don't see it as a life choice and gather cherry picked statistics supporting their views. They then start throwing in modern day slavery and underage girls into the mix and you got yourself a poison chalice that no politician will want to champion. Even when its cited to these people that regulating it and making it legal will remove a lot of these unwanted parts they still argue that we would be sanctioning this kind of work and condemning women who they see only as victims. I always find it hypocritical that feminists who apparently advocate freedom of choice for women then try and restrict certain choices women make because it doesn't suit their moral narrative or their very specific idea of empowerment. Anyway as for a referendum or campaign on this issue I unfortunately don't think you will get this even suggested let alone politicians running with it. We live in a world where the SJW groups seem to rule and dictate public opinion and if the immediate go to is that women in this trade are victims well its going to be next to impossible to have a successful change in law.

jaxxx

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

Much too early and I'm about as far from being in the mood to discuss this so I'll keep it short and sweet:

- Because humans are idiots.

Very much applicable to most things in life. I've done a lot of reading into the so called 'good intentions' of the likes of organisations like Ruhama who throughout the years claim to be acting in the best interests of sex workers.... Snakes in wolves' clothing. Considering the usual expression is a 'wolf in sheep's clothing', I think my little adjustment speaks for itself. One of the only glimmers of hope towards reaching a non-archaic attitude and an actual result towards the whole stigma of prostitution was Laura Lee, who sadly passed some months back.

It's not called the world's oldest profession for nothing, and regardless of if you think it's right or wrong, it is NEVER going to go away. You can throw all the legislation and anti-prostitution/client laws for eternity. How long is the new law in place now? 1/2 years? How many 'clients' have been prosecuted in that time? Cos I sure as hell haven't heard many cases in the news. It's not going to go away, it's never going to go away, so the only logical thing is to maximise as much as possible the safety of those involved in the industry.

Of all the crimes in the world, in my personal opinion there are 2 and only 2 that are in a whole other universe compared to the rest: 1 of those crimes is terrorism, the second one is human trafficking. Nothing is more disgusting or horrific than them. Nothing. I'm nowhere near the smartest man in the world, but I consider myself to be fairly logical and I cannot in a million years comprehend the logic behind the idea that NOT regulating prostitution as a whole is actually a safer and better option for human trafficking victims and those genuine independent people who choose to be involved in it. And we must recognise the fact that there are those who choose to do it. And perhaps more importantly, we must lose the stigma and stereotypes believing that anyone choosing to do this must be dependent on drugs or something similar.

The World Health Organisation, Amnesty International and many others are all against the idea of criminalisation. Is there a one stop solution to eradicating human trafficking forever? Unfortunately no, there isn't. And we need to accept that. No matter how much good is done in the world, those that would conspire against that good and seek to profit from harm and suffering will always find ways to work around it. That's just life. It's almost like bacteria being exposed to antibiotics for too long, eventually they will become immune. We have to stop taking things for how we believe they should be and start taking things for how they actually are. Unfortunately, much like terrorism, human trafficking is something which is never going to be fully abolished. Therefore the only thing we can do is try and reduce it as much as possible. And adopting a system of isolation and fear is not going to accomplish that, it is only going to do the opposite.

The simple fact is that in Ireland, if two sex workers are sharing the same living space then in the eyes of our law, that constitutes a brothel. It doesn't matter that there may be no pimps involved, no coersion involved. It is a brothel. Whatever happened to that old saying of 'strength in numbers'. The same model we adopted there last year/two years ago whenever it was introduced by Fitzgerald (who is an absolute disgrace in my honest opinion, not only as a former minister for justice, but as a woman), has been in play in Sweden for many years now and it has not worked. All the facts and figures produced by Ruhama saying that it has worked has been bogus. People have blindly believed them whenever they have been in the public eye, be it on telly, radio, etc. And whenever there are those like Laura Lee who tried and speak up against it, they were treated almost as second class citizens and as if they hadn't a clue what there were talking about.

So much for not being in the mood and keeping it quick...

In summary, prostitution is NEVER going to go away. NEVER. Anyone that believes that introducing legislation to combat it will actually result in its TOTAL ERADICATION is beyond naive. Will there be a reduction? Yes, probably. But the fact is that it will never truly be gotten rid of. It is impossible. Because of this, the only logical acts to take are to ensure that anyone working as a prostitute in Ireland has the full protection of the state. Like I said, human trafficking is never going to be wiped out, it is a fact, a very disgusting and sickening fact but a fact none the less. Therefore the only thing we can do is to take steps to try and reduce its impact as much as possible,and that is not going to be done by criminalising clients, making it illegal, etc. I don't have the answers, but the approach taken by the likes of Germany, New Zealand, etc, makes a damn lot more sense than what we have done.

Fanny Wank

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

nullzero wrote: »

Because regulation of prostitution is the biggest issue facing the average Irish person who can't afford to have roof over their head.

Ditto same sex marriage and the 8th amendment

Grayson

Avatar MIA wrote: »

The most stunning woman in the world holds no appeal for me if cash needs to be exchanged.

However, I'm firmly of the belief this industry should be legalised and regulated. A red light zone in cities with regular medical check ups.

As a nation we're losing the ability to turn a blind eye and legislate for reality.

Legalising and regulating prostitution simply makes something that's been happening since the conception of the barter system and will go on as long as humans exist as safe as possible for all those involved.

I'm not even sure about red light zones. I do believe in legalising it. There are bad aspects to prostitution. Trafficking, slavery etc.. However it's far easier to tackle those aspects when it's legal.

I think zoning laws would be the answer. make brothels be licensed and very regularly inspected. Make sure they're not next to schools etc and that's it. but don't designate one "zone" Just make sure that there's laws saying where they can't be.

thebull85

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

nullzero wrote: »

Because regulation of prostitution is the biggest issue facing the average Irish person who can't afford to have roof over their head.

But womens rights...

Discodog

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

Channel 5 have been doing a series about sex workers. One episode followed three private escorts, all intelligent & working of their own free will. The next episode showed the street prostitutes who, in the majority, work to feed their habit. The contrast was alarming.

Joe Dog

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

jaxxx wrote: »

Much too early and I'm about as far from being in the mood to discuss this so I'll keep it short and sweet:

- Because humans are idiots.

Very much applicable to most things in life. I've done a lot of reading into the so called 'good intentions' of the likes of organisations like Ruhama who throughout the years claim to be acting in the best interests of sex workers.... Snakes in wolves' clothing. Considering the usual expression is a 'wolf in sheep's clothing', I think my little adjustment speaks for itself. One of the only glimmers of hope towards reaching a non-archaic attitude and an actual result towards the whole stigma of prostitution was Laura Lee, who sadly passed some months back.

It's not called the world's oldest profession for nothing, and regardless of if you think it's right or wrong, it is NEVER going to go away. You can throw all the legislation and anti-prostitution/client laws for eternity. How long is the new law in place now? 1/2 years? How many 'clients' have been prosecuted in that time? Cos I sure as hell haven't heard many cases in the news. It's not going to go away, it's never going to go away, so the only logical thing is to maximise as much as possible the safety of those involved in the industry.

Of all the crimes in the world, in my personal opinion there are 2 and only 2 that are in a whole other universe compared to the rest: 1 of those crimes is terrorism, the second one is human trafficking. Nothing is more disgusting or horrific than them. Nothing. I'm nowhere near the smartest man in the world, but I consider myself to be fairly logical and I cannot in a million years comprehend the logic behind the idea that NOT regulating prostitution as a whole is actually a safer and better option for human trafficking victims and those genuine independent people who choose to be involved in it. And we must recognise the fact that there are those who choose to do it. And perhaps more importantly, we must lose the stigma and stereotypes believing that anyone choosing to do this must be dependent on drugs or something similar.

The World Health Organisation, Amnesty International and many others are all against the idea of criminalisation. Is there a one stop solution to eradicating human trafficking forever? Unfortunately no, there isn't. And we need to accept that. No matter how much good is done in the world, those that would conspire against that good and seek to profit from harm and suffering will always find ways to work around it. That's just life. It's almost like bacteria being exposed to antibiotics for too long, eventually they will become immune. We have to stop taking things for how we believe they should be and start taking things for how they actually are. Unfortunately, much like terrorism, human trafficking is something which is never going to be fully abolished. Therefore the only thing we can do is try and reduce it as much as possible. And adopting a system of isolation and fear is not going to accomplish that, it is only going to do the opposite.

The simple fact is that in Ireland, if two sex workers are sharing the same living space then in the eyes of our law, that constitutes a brothel. It doesn't matter that there may be no pimps involved, no coersion involved. It is a brothel. Whatever happened to that old saying of 'strength in numbers'. The same model we adopted there last year/two years ago whenever it was introduced by Fitzgerald (who is an absolute disgrace in my honest opinion, not only as a former minister for justice, but as a woman), has been in play in Sweden for many years now and it has not worked. All the facts and figures produced by Ruhama saying that it has worked has been bogus. People have blindly believed them whenever they have been in the public eye, be it on telly, radio, etc. And whenever there are those like Laura Lee who tried and speak up against it, they were treated almost as second class citizens and as if they hadn't a clue what there were talking about.

So much for not being in the mood and keeping it quick...

In summary, prostitution is NEVER going to go away. NEVER. Anyone that believes that introducing legislation to combat it will actually result in its TOTAL ERADICATION is beyond naive. Will there be a reduction? Yes, probably. But the fact is that it will never truly be gotten rid of. It is impossible. Because of this, the only logical acts to take are to ensure that anyone working as a prostitute in Ireland has the full protection of the state. Like I said, human trafficking is never going to be wiped out, it is a fact, a very disgusting and sickening fact but a fact none the less. Therefore the only thing we can do is to take steps to try and reduce its impact as much as possible,and that is not going to be done by criminalising clients, making it illegal, etc. I don't have the answers, but the approach taken by the likes of Germany, New Zealand, etc, makes a damn lot more sense than what we have done.

I really hate it when people break promises.

Conservatory

No, it should remain illegal and the client guilty of an offence as is current Irish law

nullzero wrote: »

Because regulation of prostitution is the biggest issue facing the average Irish person who can't afford to have roof over their head.

It gives these people a job to pay the rent.

hatrickpatrick

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

We're probably still a generation or two away from this, sadly.

Yamanoto

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

Fuaranach wrote: »

What possible arguments are there for not legalising and, more importantly, regulating prostitution in Ireland?

Many proponents of 'Repeal the 8th' would be the very same folks who'd dismiss women who freely choose to engage in sex work as victims by definition.

"Those who defend prostitution argue that it is possible to differentiate between voluntary and non-voluntary prostitution, that adults should have the right to freely sell and freely purchase sex (...) However, based on a gender equality and human rights perspective, (...) the distinction between voluntary and nonvoluntary prostitution is not relevant."

Sweden's Skarhed commission and report (Ban on purchase of sexual services: An evaluation 1999-2008) 2010

Seems you can only be a strong & independent woman, once it fits in nicely with third-wave orthodoxy. Deviate from it & they'll do all in their power to save you - oddly reminiscent of how Catholic Ireland went about its business way back when.

Samuel T. Cogley

Prostitution was legal until this year (or early last). I can't see a U-turn being done on it that quickly.

I'd also not like to see the German/Aussie model brought in, industrialised prostitution is a big a magnet to trafficking as illegal prostitution.

BoJack Horseman

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

It should be fully legalised..... In time it probably will be.

Though the full legalisation will probably be sooner.

jaxxx

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

Joe Dog wrote: »

I really hate it when people break promises.

Oh god I know right?? I feel the exact same thing when people make a genuine contribution to something only to be met with sarcastic retorts completely ignroing 99% of what they just said. Ugh. So annoying. Some people!!



(insert cheeky LOL so as to defuse the pent up tension of nothingness and then continue to ramble on talking about potatoes and the number 4..........)


FFS!

Geuze

Prostitution was legal until a few years ago.

Maybe one or two years ago.

It'll hardly be changed back so soon?

Outlaw Pete

Yamanoto wrote: »

Many proponents of 'Repeal the 8th' would be the very same folks who'd dismiss women who freely choose to engage in sex work as victims by definition.

Seems you can only be a strong & independent woman, once it fits in nicely with third-wave orthodoxy. Deviate from it & they'll do all in their power to save you - oddly reminiscent of how Catholic Ireland went about its business way back when.

Yeah, Iceland is as bad as Sweden when it comes to such philosophical inconsistency. Strip clubs were even banned there a number of years ago which brings into question the stated motives behind many other laws which were apparently about giving women freedoms over their own bodies. The true common denominator within their motives nothing at all to do with liberation of course.

KevinCavan

Legalizing weed is what the next referendum will be about in my opinion.

Fanny Wank

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

KevinCavan wrote: »

Legalizing weed is what the next referendum will be about in my opinion.

Would there need to be a referendum for this?

Jimmy Dags

Prefer escorts myself.

A Pint of Goo

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

How are we going to have legalised prostitution when they sjw retards forced us to adopt the Swedish model?

Which is stupid btw because I could go online, find a whore and be hitting it within 20 mins.

uck51js9zml2yt

Shout loud enough ( or maybe get Ruth Coppinger to speak in her normal voice) and the government and the people will buckle and make it legal.

Taytoland

nullzero wrote: »

Because regulation of prostitution is the biggest issue facing the average Irish person who can't afford to have roof over their head.

Neither was abortion either. People willing to march for that but not near enough for homeless people.

padd b1975

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Or formula 1 pit girls.

Trust women but only if they're doing something I agree with according to Red Ruth.

Taytoland

Yamanoto wrote: »

Fuaranach wrote: »

What possible arguments are there for not legalising and, more importantly, regulating prostitution in Ireland?

Many proponents of 'Repeal the 8th' would be the very same folks who'd dismiss women who freely choose to engage in sex work as victims by definition.

"Those who defend prostitution argue that it is possible to differentiate between voluntary and non-voluntary prostitution, that adults should have the right to freely sell and freely purchase sex (...) However, based on a gender equality and human rights perspective, (...) the distinction between voluntary and nonvoluntary prostitution is not relevant."

Sweden's Skarhed commission and report (Ban on purchase of sexual services: An evaluation 1999-2008) 2010

Seems you can only be a strong & independent woman, once it fits in nicely with third-wave orthodoxy. Deviate from it & they'll do all in their power to save you - oddly reminiscent of how Catholic Ireland went about its business way back when.

Brilliant post and spot on. The radical feminists will never agree with it. I think the morality of Prostitution is far greater than abortion and yet they hate it. Boggles the mind.

Samuel T. Cogley

Jimmy Dags wrote: »

Prefer escorts myself.

Love an ol' XR3 myself too.

Noveight

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Love an ol' XR3 myself too.

I'll have a Mk2 Mexico any day! Older escorts are always beauts... :pac:

irishanarchist

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

It will never be Legalises or Regulated here because its good for a Man if you are a Man your being stamped on.

TheValeyard

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

Legalised,
Regulated
And taxed


So revenue also get to f*ck you.

A Pint of Goo

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

padd b1975 wrote: »

Or formula 1 pit girls.

Trust women but only if they're doing something I agree with according to Red Ruth.

That pissed me off. ****ing jealous fat femanazis ruining it for everyone.

nozzferrahhtoo

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

There was a for and against documentry on RTE not too long ago, probably still on the player somewhere?

If I was against sex work though I would be sadly disappointed with the woman they chose to represent that side of the argument. She was a dour anti man extremist. And that's diluting the description to make it more palatable.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I'd also not like to see the German/Aussie model brought in, industrialised prostitution is a big a magnet to trafficking as illegal prostitution.

I am not sure how true that actually is to be honest. But true or not my reply to it is always the same..... at least a legal regulated model gives us the tools to combat such trafficking in a way that an illegal underground industry simply does not.

That is not to say making it legal will automatically mean we can beat those problems. But if the goal IS to beat those problems, one way seems to afford many more methods to work on it than the other.

mzungu

Much and all as I disagree with it. If both parties are willing to make the transaction and nobody has been coerced into doing it, then the state should have absolutely no say in it. They are, of course, fully entitled to tax it and they should provide sufficient supports for workers in the industry.

Legalising it will make it safer for the women working in the industry. As it stands, this is not the case.

Conservatory

No, it should remain illegal and the client guilty of an offence as is current Irish law

Is it mainly poor people that get into it in the legal countries?

I’m sure there are poster girls with degrees and stuff but is there any numbers on the likelihood or percentages of it being borne from poverty?

MikeyTaylor

No, it should be illegal and both client and prostitute guilty of an offence (old law)

I think it's disgusting and exploitative.

Your Face

Fuaranach wrote: »

Just wondering what the next campaign will be and this one seems like a nice safe one which won't affect the personal finances of "liberals" - unlike say a campaign to create a fair and equitable health system for all, which would be the biggest societal and ethical advance in Ireland since free education was introduced but would increase taxes and prevent our so-called liberal reformers from using their private health insurance to skip the health queue over somebody in more need, of course. Can't be having that sort of real reform!

Well that's it in a nutshell.

Well put.

Kirby

MikeyTaylor wrote: »

I think it's disgusting and exploitative.

So is the modern betting culture. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be legal surely?

JupiterKid

Yes, it should be legalised but *not* regulated

Yes of course it should be legalised and regulated. Same goes for illegal drugs. Let's accept human nature and legislate accordingly.

One eyed Jack

JupiterKid wrote: »

Yes of course it should be legalised and regulated. Same goes for illegal drugs. Let's accept human nature and legislate accordingly.

We already do accept human nature and that's exactly why we do legislate accordingly - because some people exploit other people who are vulnerable and that's exactly why we make laws to prevent them from doing so, to protect vulnerable people from exploitation.

suicide_circus

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We already do accept human nature and that's exactly why we do legislate accordingly - because some people exploit other people who are vulnerable and that's exactly why we make laws to prevent them from doing so, to protect vulnerable people from exploitation.

Seems to be working a treat. Ireland is sex industry free now I believe.

One eyed Jack

suicide_circus wrote: »

Seems to be working a treat. Ireland is sex industry free now I believe.

I didn't say that. The law is just one aspect of tackling the issue of prevention of prostitution. Measures like changing the law don't work in isolation which is why the Swedish model which is being implemented across Europe is failing in Sweden - because the additional resources and support structures aren't being implemented.

anewme

No, it should be illegal and both client and prostitute guilty of an offence (old law)

A Pint of Goo wrote: »

That pissed me off. ****ing jealous fat femanazis ruining it for everyone.

This type of attitude from the days of the man era needs to be binned.

Because someone disagrees with a topic, they are therefore by default a fat femanazi?

Clearly living in a bygone age. No clue with reality.

Deliverance type outdated mentality.