The horrific death of Ana Kriegel

ArnieSilvia

Brae100 wrote:

It's a lot more than one in three. The official rates show nearly double that (63% recidivism after three years), which doesn't include people who haven't been caught.

The more I think about the prisons, the more I start to believe that some people are just evil and should be treated as mentally ill indefinitely if reoffending. Or at least every prisoner should be assessed by a professional prior to release and have a deep look into this person's mind to check if they learned anything. Leave punishment as deterrent for ordinary folk, but the prospect of having to deal with psychiatric institution at the end of it would make any scumbag think twice, it'd make them throw up, because last thing they want is to deal with their problem.

Louis Theroux documentary I watched on Netflix recently, on special unit for pedos and professionals assessing their true state of mind before releasing to the world, was eye opening. I bet the prison didn't do anything to them but this special unit made these creeps hate themselves for what they were and to make actual effort. Otherwise they would be kept there indefinitely.

Rechuchote

The Norwegians - who are shutting down prisons, because there is so little repeat offending - have a pragmatic and merciful approach:

https://www.economist.com/international/2017/05/27/too-many-prisons-make-bad-people-worse.-there-is-a-better-way

Strazdas

anewme wrote: »

I also don’t doubt the intentions of the person setting up and goodwill of those donating.

My concern would be a slightly different one. As has been said already, the Kriegel family are quite private and taking that into account, I’m not sure how they would feel about this and if it is what they would really want. Some people might not feel comfortable with it. Maybe they have been asked and are fine with it, but it’s not clear if thay have, so it does not sit with me for that reason. I suppose they can always donate it on to a charity close to their hearts if they wish.

Sometimes it’s hard to know what to do for the best, especially in a situation as sensitive as this.

According to the gofundme page, the fund for Ana was set up by a 17 year old girl who didn't know her but who wanted to help (a lovely gesture I'm sure we will all agree). Even if her family were not to accept, it presumably would go to a charity or cause that Ana liked instead.

The fund for Jastine Valdez was set up by Filipinos living in Ireland and I imagine this eventually will be accepted by the Valdez family.

Strazdas

ClanofLams wrote: »

I was about to ask about this. Do gofundme play a role in ensuring it reaches the advertised cause? Only used it twice before and that was when I knew the people involved.

Not sure at all to be honest or how this actually works. There's no reason to believe the fund above is not genuine : hopefully the girl who is running it gets some advice on how to proceed with things (do you simply make a bank transfer to the person you're giving it to?).

ThinkProgress

Rechuchote wrote: »

The Norwegians - who are shutting down prisons, because there is so little repeat offending - have a pragmatic and merciful approach:

https://www.economist.com/international/2017/05/27/too-many-prisons-make-bad-people-worse.-there-is-a-better-way

I guess they will be releasing Anders Behring Breivik too then...??

If they really believe in their ideas, then releasing one of the most dangerous lunatics of modern times, would be an excellent litmus test. Amazingly, Breivik actually only has roughly half of his sentence left to serve!! :eek:

(remind me not to go to norway, if that chap eventually gets back out)

pleas advice

OwlsZat wrote: »

There needs to be way to make the offender feel what their victim felt. Whilst I accept repeating the act to them might not be appropriate. VR in the future perhaps.

Clockwork Orange?

evolving_doors

I'm not referring to this case in particular, but when people go to those extremes I think it had to come from somewhere and they are acting out abuse or neglect they are experiencing.
I don't know how I'd feel about subjecting the perpetrators to more of the same, would that rehabilitate?

Rechuchote

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I guess they will be releasing Anders Behring Breivik too then...??

If they really believe in their ideas, then releasing one of the most dangerous lunatics of modern times, would be an excellent litmus test. Amazingly, Breivik actually only has roughly half of his sentence left to serve!! :eek:

(remind me not to go to norway, if that chap eventually gets back out)

Oh, really, don't be silly.

The Norwegian success is a huge credit to them. Someone like the person you mention - I don't want to say his name, even - needs (in my opinion, anyway) to spend the rest of his life locked away, in comfort, but never released back into the wild.

ThinkProgress

Rechuchote wrote: »

Oh, really, don't be silly.

The Norwegian success is a huge credit to them. Someone like the person you mention - I don't want to say his name, even - needs (in my opinion, anyway) to spend the rest of his life locked away, in comfort, but never released back into the wild.

But what is the fundamental difference?

Norway releases murderers... Breivik is a murderer?

Is it the number of people that Breivik killed? Surely one murder, or 100 murders... it is still essentially the exact same mentality to kill another human being?

I believe Norway's attitude to offenders will come back to bite them in the ass eventually. Even if the overall stats might still back their theory, you only need a handful of dangerous re-offenders before their ideas become deeply unpopular...

Even just one major incident could change people's opinion!

Rechuchote

Every murder is different; every person is different.

Surely Ireland's jail system is already coming back to bite us? We have three or four extended families that are becoming mega-rich on the proceeds of crime and grief and misery; we have an economy badly damaged by drugs money leaking out and by poor kids being disenfranchised, enraged and disengaged because of that drug culture.

callaway92

Two teenage boys arrested in connection with the murder for questioning. Assume the same guys questioned as the last time.

RacoonQueen

Awful, awful stuff. Keep hoping it would turn out not to be kids but, Jesus. What the hell could have possibly happened between children for it to get to that. Awful.

scopper

Arrests made.

degsie

Hope things follow along swiftly now that arrests have been made.

gozunda

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Awful, awful stuff. Keep hoping it would turn out not to be kids but, Jesus. What the hell could have possibly happened between children for it to get to that. Awful.

Bullying behaviour involves no rationalisation or reason. In this case the bullying escalated to sexual assault and murder. Both psychological and physical assault are two sides of the same coin imo -

Homer

Hopefully the guards/authorities will be able to trace everybody allegedly involved in this despicable crime though texts/whatsapp/social media and really make an example of them and let every kid in Ireland know the consequences for their actions. Some of them may not have been at the scene of the crime but may have contributed to this poor girls tragic death.

Franz Von Peppercorn

evolving_doors wrote: »

I'm not referring to this case in particular, but when people go to those extremes I think it had to come from somewhere and they are acting out abuse or neglect they are experiencing.
I don't know how I'd feel about subjecting the perpetrators to more of the same, would that rehabilitate?

That’s a stretch. Amazing number of people think humans just can’t be bad. Humans can be bad despite a good upbringing.

baldbear

Just out of curiosity does anyone know the sentencing for a juvenile in the case of murder?

TheMilkyPirate

Still can't get my head around this. I mean how does it go from being lured to a park and bullied laughed at to being raped and beaten to death. I'm sure nobody there woke up that morning and said they were going to kill someone. How did it escalate so much in such a short space of time? Why did none of them stop and think christ we may stop this and get out of here before we really hurt her. So many unanswered questions, Poor girl.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Rechuchote wrote: »

Oh, really, don't be silly.

The Norwegian success is a huge credit to them. Someone like the person you mention - I don't want to say his name, even - needs (in my opinion, anyway) to spend the rest of his life locked away, in comfort, but never released back into the wild.

Why? What if he is genuinely rehabilitated

The Norwegian island is fine but it’s only going to work for some kind of prisoners. It’s also making prisoners work (presumably unpaid) so may not be as liberal as you think.

Wombatman

callaway92 wrote: »

Two teenage boys arrested in connection with the murder for questioning. Assume the same guys questioned as the last time.

The boys are being held at two different garda stations.

The lads have had plenty of time to get their story straight and have probably been well schooled by lawyers to boot.

fergiesfolly

Wombatman wrote: »

The lads have had plenty of time to get their story straight and have probably been well schooled by lawyers to boot.

As long as that schooling involved pleading guilty, telling exactly what happened and who was involved and expecting lengthy sentences.

Beechwoodspark

Wombatman wrote: »

The lads have had plenty of time to get their story straight and have probably been well schooled by lawyers to boot.

Well reportedly, clear Inconsistencies have already come to light. Doubt these 2 are criminal masterminds to be honest.

ozzy jr

From Citizens Information website,

Legal Rights

Criminal responsibility

The age of criminal responsibility is 12 years of age. This means that children who have not reached the age of 12 cannot be charged with an offence. There is an exception, however, for children aged 10 or 11, who can be charged with murder, manslaughter, rape or aggravated sexual assault.

Where a child under 14 years of age is charged with an offence, no further proceedings can be taken without the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Children under 12

Where the Gardaave reasonable grounds for believing that a child under 12 years of age has committed an offence with which the child cannot be charged due to his/her age, the Gardaust take the child to his/her parents or guardian. Where this is not possible, the Gardaill arrange for the child to be taken into the custody of the Child and Family Agency (Tusla) services for the area in which the child normally resides. It is possible that children under 12 years of age who commit criminal offences will be dealt with by Tusla and not the criminal justice system. Information on the powers available to Tusla is available in our document, Children in care.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/children_s_rights_and_policy/children_and_rights_in_ireland.html

Textronic

fergiesfolly wrote: »

As long as that schooling involved pleading guilty, telling exactly what happened and who was involved and expecting lengthy sentences.

There's no guarantee

There was another person beaten to death not too long ago, everyone seems to know what happened,nobody charged

iamwhoiam

evolving_doors wrote: »

I'm not referring to this case in particular, but when people go to those extremes I think it had to come from somewhere and they are acting out abuse or neglect they are experiencing.
I don't know how I'd feel about subjecting the perpetrators to more of the same, would that rehabilitate?

Not always the case . I could name one case here in my own neighbourhood. Lovely home , lovely parents , great siblings and extended family . Early on one lad showed tendency to anger , was known on the GAA scene for being rough. Kids knew to avoid conflict with him in secondary school
In leaving cert year age 17 he killed a boy his own age in a fit of temper over a girl . There was nothing at all to cause him to act out

Wombatman

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Well reportedly, clear Inconsistencies have already come to light. Doubt these 2 are criminal masterminds to be honest.

They are probably schooled well enough to know that AGS will never know the facts of what happened unless one of them talks.

Teens record everything on phones these days though.

scopper

TheMilkyPirate wrote: »

Still can't get my head around this. I mean how does it go from being lured to a park and bullied laughed at to being raped and beaten to death. I'm sure nobody there woke up that morning and said they were going to kill someone. How did it escalate so much in such a short space of time? Why did none of them stop and think christ we may stop this and get out of here before we really hurt her. So many unanswered questions, Poor girl.

You might just need one loose canon who pushed it too far and maybe the second was easily led. Of course the real world is dark sometimes, it's possible they were just evil sorts.

dorado99

Wombatman wrote: »

They are probably schooled well enough to know that AGS will never know the facts of what happened unless one of them talks.

Teens record everything on phones these days though.

Would DNA not be enough proof?

billybonkers

Let us not forget that these "kids" carried out this horrific crime and quite obviously made a story up between them to deflect attention away from themselves. They should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. No remorse shown.