Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

beauf wrote: »

Its debatable in a number of area. A bicycle is arguably more stable. So less likely to come off. Weights are similar.
The damage is done by the mass of the rider+bicycle/scooter hitting you. or falling off it. Which is more or less the same damage wise.

Anyway the point is the danger isn't mainly about tripping over them. There's more to it.

Also you are trying to imply that bicycles are more dangerous for some reason, while also arguing its similar. Which is contradictory.

Anyway there are some early stats on it

There is another article that claims scooters are more dangerous than cycling. But its behind a paywall. If I had to guess I'd say is easier to fall of a scooter than a bike. But that just a guess on my part.

I have to say that I have found more stability on an e-scooter. I am not saying one is safer than the other, I am giving my own "personal" preference, so there is no contradiction there.

For a direct impact, my thinking is if a scooter rider hits me, the impact will be similar to someone jogging, or running into me. The rider has a better chance of stepping off and controlling the impact which will be a leg, hip, or torso impact. A cyclist at similar speed would end up rugby tackling me to the ground, possibly flying over the handle-bars.

Falling from the scooter, you might be able to compose yourself, or you might fall flat on your face. It's not likely you will fly over the handle-bar, but it's a painful possibility I hope I never experience. When falling from a bicycle, you have less control, as you can't just put your feet down and going over the top is always a big possibility.

I feel safer on a scooter. I'm sure others feel safer on bicycles. It's not a competition, just a preference.

Not all eBike are pedelecs and some places would consider such a design an illegal modification designed to circumvent the legislation. As it would require a throttle.

cojomo2

SteM wrote: »

Different bikes have different torques.

Some ebikes use a torque sensor, the motor gives a proportionate amount of power depending on how hard the user cycles.

Other have a crank sensor, as long as the crank is turning (no matter how slow), the motor releases full power.

SteM

Different bikes have different torques.

cojomo2

beauf wrote: »

You still have to put in a decent effort.
You are limited by the effort you can put it.
You can't pretend to cycle.

Not true. I had an ebike...put it in the lowest gear and barely moved the crank get full power.

rubadub wrote: »

... pedelecs are -simply because your legs are moving and could be providing very little additional force....

You still have to put in a decent effort.
You are limited by the effort you can put it.
You can't pretend to cycle.

...Ghost... wrote: »

Nothing in that article was any different to the dangers of a bicycle. I already mentioned the problem being how riders leave the scooters laying about.

Personally, I would rather fall off, or be struck by a rider of an e-scooter than a bicycle, as there is less chance of serious injury and more chance of avoiding injury completely.

Its debatable in a number of area. A bicycle is arguably more stable. So less likely to come off. Weights are similar.
The damage is done by the mass of the rider+bicycle/scooter hitting you. or falling off it. Which is more or less the same damage wise.

Anyway the point is the danger isn't mainly about tripping over them. There's more to it.

Also you are trying to imply that bicycles are more dangerous for some reason, while also arguing its similar. Which is contradictory.

Anyway there are some early stats on it

The research, published Jan. 25 in JAMA Network Open, is the first published study on injuries caused by electric scooters. It reports that the most common mechanisms of injury among scooter riders were falls (80 percent), collisions with objects (11 percent), or being struck by a moving vehicle such as a car, bicycle or other scooter (9 percent).

Among the other findings:

About 92 percent (228) of the injured people were riders, and 8 percent (21) were non-riders, including pedestrians who were struck by scooter riders or who stumbled over a discarded scooter.

There is another article that claims scooters are more dangerous than cycling. But its behind a paywall. If I had to guess I'd say is easier to fall of a scooter than a bike. But that just a guess on my part.

beauf wrote: »

Theres a bit more to it than that.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/04/health/scooter-injury-cdc-investigation-partner/index.html

Nothing in that article was any different to the dangers of a bicycle. I already mentioned the problem being how riders leave the scooters laying about.

Personally, I would rather fall off, or be struck by a rider of an e-scooter than a bicycle, as there is less chance of serious injury and more chance of avoiding injury completely.

beauf wrote: »

Throttled ebikes are not pedelecs. As such they fall under MPV, same eScooters.

yep I realise this. I was wondering why are throttled ebikes with limited speed and power not road legal in the first place when pedelecs are -simply because your legs are moving and could be providing very little additional force.

Just wondered if there was something I was missing which would make me thing "aha, well there is no way those scooters should get away with not having to continuously be putting effort in"

Throttled ebikes are not pedelecs. As such they fall under MPV, same eScooters. You have similar problems trying to tax and insure them.

I'm not sure what you don't follow about seeing someone not cycling is easy to spot.

beauf wrote: »

The only reason I can see is to limit average speeds and top speeds.

If that was the case the scooters may need a lower top speed.

beauf wrote: »

It also easier to police, as you can see some one pedalling.

I don't follow this thought, if throttled ebikes were allowed people would be just using them and not pedalling, so no policing would be needed.

With the way the laws are not it just makes it easier to spot people on non-road legal ebikes, as they are not pedalling. At the moment this does make it easier to spot ones which are more likely to have limits above 25km/h

beauf wrote: »

It also has health benefits.

This could be a reason they do exempt them, and why they would not want to exempt something with no health benefits.

I think the pedelec definition on irishstatutebook is only listed in reference to the cycle to work scheme, which I think was partly brought about to promote health benefits. If fully throttled ebikes were road legal they might still be excluded from the scheme.

The only reason I can see is to limit average speeds and top speeds.

It also easier to police, as you can see some one pedalling. It also has health benefits.

beauf wrote: »

No reason you should have to fake human assistance.

I have wondered why the pedelecs require this human assistance. I thought it might be a safety issue.

If they did legalise these scooters for road use I wonder if they would accept throttled ebikes.

Mickeroo

...Ghost... wrote: »

The problems are more-so with users discarding them all over the place when finished with them. They should have dedicated spots to leave them when finished, similar to bicycle rentals.

The scooter issues in the US featured a fair bit in the last season of south park.

rubadub wrote: »

My take on this was that, yes, the scooters could be considered similar to ebikes, BUT that would mean that power would only kick in and assist you when somebody scoots, i.e. it would have to have a sensor in it like the pedelecs to recognise that somebody is pushing it with their foot and give assistance, and instantly stop afterwards -just like an ebike does.

I was theorising that the scooter could be fitted with some sort of foot pedal that you would actively have to press down, like a bike pedal, to be actively applying power.

Otherwise people could get an ebike with a throttle and once going needs not pedalling, but which requires a push to start, and then if questioned they could claim it is a scooter.

I think it would be easier just allow them limited. Limited to certain speeds and in certain areas like cycle paths and certain roads. Same as a Bicycle. No reason you should have to fake human assistance.

...Ghost... wrote: »

The problems are more-so with users discarding them all over the place when finished with them. They should have dedicated spots to leave them when finished, similar to bicycle rentals.

Theres a bit more to it than that.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/04/health/scooter-injury-cdc-investigation-partner/index.html

cojomo2 wrote: »

From RSA
What is the law on e-bikes / pedelecs / battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)

Battery powered scooters are regarded as a "type of bike" going by above.

My take on this was that, yes, the scooters could be considered similar to ebikes, BUT that would mean that power would only kick in and assist you when somebody scoots, i.e. it would have to have a sensor in it like the pedelecs to recognise that somebody is pushing it with their foot and give assistance, and instantly stop afterwards -just like an ebike does.

I was theorising that the scooter could be fitted with some sort of foot pedal that you would actively have to press down, like a bike pedal, to be actively applying power.

Otherwise people could get an ebike with a throttle and once going needs not pedalling, but which requires a push to start, and then if questioned they could claim it is a scooter.

grogi

cojomo2 wrote: »

From RSA

It has been shown numerous times that the RSA website should be taken with big caveats.

beauf wrote: »

Be interesting to see how the US deals with them. They have loads of scooter sharing schemes and are having some issues.

The problems are more-so with users discarding them all over the place when finished with them. They should have dedicated spots to leave them when finished, similar to bicycle rentals.

ED E

The RSA are frequently wrong, and this is another example. They're applying an exemption for bicycles and tricycles to scooters.

Note the document does not give references to legislation. Its the legislation you should be reading.

cojomo2

ED E wrote: »

How many times does this need to be said.

THE

ASSISTED

CLAUSE

APPLIES

ONLY

TO

BICYCLES

For all other types of vehicle it doesnt matter what it does once it has a motor its an MPV. This push to start discussion is utter bullsh1t.

From RSA
What is the law on e-bikes / pedelecs / battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, the rule is as
follows: If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can go without you pedalling or scooting
it) then it is considered to be a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV)

Battery powered scooters are regarded as a "type of bike" going by above.

beauf wrote: »

Thats 12-14 mph (20-22 kmh) Which is slower than someone on a regular bicycle. On a electric bicycle you will be faster. Even allowing for traffic, and lights etc.

I am slower commuting on my ebike than my old hybrid, which was a clapped out bike only working on one gear with heavy and relatively wide heavy puncture proof tyres. It also had commuter suspension which zaps power out. My ebike has the more powerful Bosch performance motor which when I got it was only on a handful of the more expensive bikes.

cojomo2 wrote: »

https://news.escoot.ie/stopped-by-garda-on-my-m365/

Garda stops M365 and acknowledges its not an MPV after closer inspection.

people have come across gardai who think helmets are legally required for cyclists. Random gardai on the street are little better than "blokes in the pub".

If they were legal surely people would be modifying very high power motorbikes to exploit this apparent loophole in the law.

Be interesting to see how the US deals with them. They have loads of scooter sharing schemes and are having some issues.

antodeco

Recently I went out for lunch from work and went on my scooter. Got the restaurant and there were no bike racks nearby. Several bikes chained to lampposts, poles, etc, blocking paths and very close to parked cars. I folded my scooter up and tucked it under the table I was sitting at. Far safer for a pedestrian as no paths were being partially blocked by bikes.

There are pro's and cons for scooters over bikes. The problem is how specific legislation is, that it doesn't account for eScooters. They should start off with basics such as, front and rear lights required at all times. Helmet required. No allowance on paths etc. I know bikes should have this, and a lot don't, but it's easier to confiscate a scooter if grey in legislation if those above basics aren't met.

Markcheese

beauf wrote: »

How far do I have to push to qualify. 1cm or 50m.

Well the pedelec bikes can't have a throttle, you stop pedaling, they stop powering,
Whereas a electric scooter is just push off to start, then the motor does all the work...
Having said that, they're convenient, portable and aren't taking up loads of space in city centre, the sooner they're regularised the better...

beauf wrote: »

Maybe the EU will come up a law and we'll just copy it.

I've noticed that most of the Scooters I've seen are always being overtaken by cyclists. They seems to be because the slow down a lot on hills gradients and the they can't handle a poor surface as well as a bicycle.

I assume at some point well start to see improved scooters that might have better tyres and more torque. Interesting the new m365 model they have made it harder to remove the limiter. Which I assume it's a means of helping legislation to define them. Thus gain mass acceptance.

Despite all my messing I think they are great. Can't wait to see how they develop.

We usually copy UK laws, but here's hoping something logical is adopted no matter where it comes from. I would have a speed limited preference, because power is needed to climb inclines.

The 365 handles relatively well because of the pneumatic tyres and the radius is bigger than a few models I have seen around the town.

Removing the speed limiter on the first version of the 365 only adds 4 or 5kmph to the speed, so you won't get any whiplash from that improvement. I would get the firmware upgrade if I was sure it would give extra torque on hills, but there is no evidence I have seen to prove it does.

I think seizures will become more common in the short term and not just because there are more of the scooters on the road, but because there are some strange looking ones too. Yesterday I spotted one that had a sort of X frame, a seat and a large front wheel. I doubt it was a kick-off type and it was more like a small e-bike.

Maybe the EU will come up a law and we'll just copy it.

I've noticed that most of the Scooters I've seen are always being overtaken by cyclists. They seems to be because the slow down a lot on hills gradients and the they can't handle a poor surface as well as a bicycle.

I assume at some point well start to see improved scooters that might have better tyres and more torque. Interesting the new m365 model they have made it harder to remove the limiter. Which I assume it's a means of helping legislation to define them. Thus gain mass acceptance.

Despite all my messing I think they are great. Can't wait to see how they develop.

ED E wrote: »

How many times does this need to be said....

They aren't listening anyway.

cojomo2 wrote: »

...
Do you have to physically propel this death chariot yourself ( by cycling/scooting/pushing it) for some distance before the motor can be engaged?

How far do I have to push to qualify. 1cm or 50m.