Under-age training misconduct

Smith614

Its ok to talkl about club executives etc etc, most clubs are run by the same few volunteers, training teams, babysitting, fundraising, officers in club. Most clubs dont have numbers involved in admin. side of club. Everything falls to the same few. Maybe if more parents got involved in their clubs in different roles then we might have more forward thinking and better run clubs where parents etc are more involved. It is more than a babysitting service.

ChippingSodbury

Smith614 wrote: »

Its ok to talkl about club executives etc etc, most clubs are run by the same few volunteers, training teams, babysitting, fundraising, officers in club. Most clubs dont have numbers involved in admin. side of club. Everything falls to the same few. Maybe if more parents got involved in their clubs in different roles then we might have more forward thinking and better run clubs where parents etc are more involved. It is more than a babysitting service.

All of what you've said is true but it is still not in any way a valid excuse for how the Club seem to have acted.

jmayo

kippy wrote: »

What exactly was brushed under the carpet?

The club tried their best to brush it under the carpet by not doing anything.
Then when they were pushed, after being given enough time, they in my opinion behaved in a very nasty fashion.

And as I have said GAA HQ (and county board) have come out of this quite good in that they have given the club a slap on the wrist and told them get their act in order.

Stoner wrote: »

Bonnie is right IMO. You shouldn't have to see past such a headline to discover that the GAA punished the club for it's behavior and as you say "come out of it quite good"
I picked up very little positivity from PK, it's all "spitting blood" etc.

There is nothing "quite good" about the situation.

There is in that GAA HQ have refused to bend to a bunch of muppets who thought they could firstly do nothing about complains, then bully the complainants and then state mistruths about the outcome of the investigations on their website.

Croke Park 1 - Athenry 0
Common Sense & modernity 1 - Thickness & Backwardness 0

Stoner wrote: »

The club was wrong and PK was the wrong man to write it imo.
If this is a positive story for the GAA I can't imagine how PK would approach a negative one.

Ok I get it a lot of people don't like PK.
Maybe you should all have a chat with Pat McQuade and Lance Armstrong.
Personally I like him sometimes, but I don't think I would fancy spending a night drinking with and listening to him.

BTW would you rather it was written by the likes of Malachy Clerkin, Martin Breheny or Vincent Hogan ?

ChippingSodbury

jmayo wrote: »

Croke Park 1 - Athenry 0
Common Sense & modernity 1 - Thickness & Backwardness 0

You're obviously not sold on the whole GAA thing...

Surely it's

Croke Park 1:00 - Athenry 0:00 (and I think that scoreline is v. flattering to Athenry)

jmayo

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

You're obviously not sold on the whole GAA thing...

Surely it's

Croke Park 1:00 - Athenry 0:00 (and I think that scoreline is v. flattering to Athenry)

Ah yeah, but what happens if we play by some underage rules, after all this does involve u12s or should that now be u11s, and we score over the bar as 3 points and goals as 1 point.

ChippingSodbury

Fair point!!

Stoner

jmayo wrote:

Ok I get it a lot of people don't like PK. Maybe you should all have a chat with Pat McQuade and Lance Armstrong. Personally I like him sometimes, but I don't think I would fancy spending a night drinking with and listening to him.

I said he was the wrong man, along the lines of sending a plumber out to fix a leak is the right man. That does not mean "all" of us are on Pat McQuade and Armstrong's side. Why would disagreeing with PK automatically make you an Armstrong aplolgist?
Your argument only highlights the points some are making, how can it be a positive story when we end up equating the GAA to the UCI.

If it's positive why bring those characters into the argument.

PK's history with the UCI has little to do with me thinking he was the wrong choice to cover this.

danganabu

jmayo wrote: »

then bully the complainants and then state mistruths about the outcome of the investigations on their website.

You have used this phrase ''bully the complainants'' in almost every post you have posted here, you seem very certain that their was some sort of campaign against these parents, based solely on their and PK's account of events where no right to reply has been afforded to the club and the relevant officials.

Croke Park's official findings makes no reference what so ever to bullying.

danganabu

jmayo wrote: »

BTW would you rather it was written by the likes of Malachy Clerkin, Martin Breheny or Vincent Hogan ?

I think it would have been a far more worthwhile and interesting article if it had have been covered by a non-sports writer to be honest, the details of the case, the mistakes made, the abhorent and irresponsible decision of club officials etc have very little to do with the actual sport and the bigger picture needs to be seen here.

Smith614

walking away from the GAA should be the obvious reaction from all officers of Athenry gaa club. Let Croke park travel to Athenry and sort it out. The complainants are probably too busy to do anything constructive.

Tell me how

Smith614 wrote: »

walking away from the GAA should be the obvious reaction from all officers of Athenry gaa club. Let Croke park travel to Athenry and sort it out. The complainants are probably too busy to do anything constructive.

Do you really think that because people are in volunteer positions that they should be unregulated and unquestioned?

As others have said, it's not the original event which has led to this in a weekend national newspaper, its how it was handled.

runawaybishop

danganabu wrote: »

You have used this phrase ''bully the complainants'' in almost every post you have posted here, you seem very certain that their was some sort of campaign against these parents, based solely on their and PK's account of events where no right to reply has been afforded to the club and the relevant officials.

Croke Park's official findings makes no reference what so ever to bullying.

Really? How do you interpret this then.

"The conduct of some personnel purporting to represent the Club at the Hearings was at times most disappointing. Senior club members showed a distinct disdain from the outset for the Hearings proceedings and at times for those on the Hearings committee and the complainants. The conduct of Club members who approached and remonstrated in the hotel foyer with complainants or witnesses, some of whom were X years of age, was at very least unnecessary and in poor taste and at worst could be seen as intimidatory.

Greaney

I'm a parent. We struggle very hard not to swear in front of our own children! We'd appreciate if those we trust them with, would try... just a little. Everyone understands a 'slip' but 16 signatures suggests a real issue.

I've been a coach and I still work with young people. You're given training and guidelines to help you in, or avoid, difficult situations. Some of the behaviour of these officials towards the children is really reckless.

But on to the real story. The strategized isolation of families within the community to bully and intimidate them is not only toxic to the sport but to the community at large. I live in Athenry, it's got form. I've seen this before, but not in the GAA club.

Hurrache

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Interesting how so many here are willing to accuse the parents of having an agenda but have no issue with the behaviour of the club officials.

I read the story on the day and have been perusing this thread since. It's gobsmacking the number of posters who see this as agenda driven, concocted stories, parents making things up, grudges, defend the officials because they give up time to coaching, being thankful the kids didn't make up a more 'sinister' story without having the balls to follow up with their insinuation, everything but the actual problems and the numerous occasions in which the club had to deal with it correctly, but failed to do so, so much so to the point in which the GAA had so suspense the club from minor activity.

It's almost like a cult.

bruschi

runawaybishop wrote: »

The time lines are abundantly clear in the article. They are in it a couple of times actually.

SI: Yeah, I'm listening to what you're saying but I have a couple of issues. I've a small mountain of paperwork in front of me here that dates to November 2016, when 16 signatories — a group of concerned parents — contacted the club, wrote a letter to Sean Keane. How can you tell me with a straight face that the first you heard of this was last October?

AE: Can we give you a little bit of background? That letter was sent in, that's true, but the majority of the signatories on that letter have retracted themselves from it, and have distanced themselves.

SI: Okay, well can we just clarify that the first you heard of this was not in October, it was November 2016, so that's one discrepancy. Would you like me to point out some more?

AE: You are confusing the issues.

SI: I am not confusing the issues. You were contacted by the Galway County Board in March of last year. You were asked to form a committee and to meet the complainants and document their complaints. That did not happen. You did not meet the complainants. So again, don't tell me the first you heard of this was October, because I'm looking at the email that says you were informed in March

The club were made aware of complaints and ignored them. Twice.

I'm not sure it is abundantly clear. I did not think the letter of complaint was about the mentor using foul language. If it was then I've picked it up wrong.

I also am not defending the club here even though by responding it seems I am. A comment was made that the man should have been confronted for using the foul language and the club approached over it. It was said the club ignored it.

If I picked up the timelines wrong, so be it, I was incorrect. It just seems there was a myriad of complaints levelled at the club but that in one case a written letter of apology was written and mediation brought to the table, so indicated to me that the one particular complaint was not ignored. I'm not here to argue it, if I was wrong so be it, I've already said that numerous times.

I found the article all over the place and extremely muddled between its factual aspects, the conversation aspects and hopping from one item to another and then back again.

danganabu

runawaybishop wrote: »

Really? How do you interpret this then.

"The conduct of some personnel purporting to represent the Club at the Hearings was at times most disappointing. Senior club members showed a distinct disdain from the outset for the Hearings proceedings and at times for those on the Hearings committee and the complainants. The conduct of Club members who approached and remonstrated in the hotel foyer with complainants or witnesses, some of whom were X years of age, was at very least unnecessary and in poor taste and at worst could be seen as intimidatory.

Club members not committee members or anyone at an officical club meeting, people in a hotel who were members of the Athenry club, I'm guessing a club the size of Athenry would have a couple of hundred members - and highlighing the final word of a para ignoring the preceeding text is a little disengenious.

runawaybishop

bruschi wrote: »

I'm not sure it is abundantly clear.

In November 2016, the abusive language and some other issues are raised by parents at the Athenry Juvenile AGM.

A month later, on December 13, two members of the "concerned parents of the U-11/U12 Hurling team" delivered a letter to the Athenry club chairman, Sean Keane, outlining their disappointment with the standard of training. There were 16 signatories to the letter.

Seems extremely clear?

runawaybishop

danganabu wrote: »

Club members not committee members or anyone at an officical club meeting, people in a hotel who were members of the Athenry club, I'm guessing a club the size of Athenry would have a couple of hundred members - and highlighing the final word of a para ignoring the preceeding text is a little disengenious.

You stated the parents didn't really seem to be bullied and croke park didn't reference any bullying. That statement directly contradicts this.

Furthermore the club officials called a meeting clearly designed to gather support for the clubs attempts to cover their arses and ridicule the complainants.

There are a few disingenuous posts in this thread alright.

bruschi

runawaybishop wrote: »

In November 2016, the abusive language and some other issues are raised by parents at the Athenry Juvenile AGM.

A month later, on December 13, two members of the "concerned parents of the U-11/U12 Hurling team" delivered a letter to the Athenry club chairman, Sean Keane, outlining their disappointment with the standard of training. There were 16 signatories to the letter.

Seems extremely clear?

and the apology letter and mediation happened when?

apologies if that is clear, but it didnt seem to be to me. It seemed that the incident with the 2 boys superseded all previous complaints and it was all bundled up into one giant mess.

I think we're going around in circles here. the article references complaints about a lot of things levelled at the club, none of which should be defended by the club.

again, I'm not defending the club here, and I dont want to seem like I am.

runawaybishop

bruschi wrote: »

and the apology letter and mediation happened when?

apologies if that is clear, but it didnt seem to be to me. It seemed that the incident with the 2 boys superseded all previous complaints and it was all bundled up into one giant mess.

I think we're going around in circles here. the article references complaints about a lot of things levelled at the club, none of which should be defended by the club.

again, I'm not defending the club here, and I dont want to seem like I am.

With respect, i'm not going to go and copy and paste bits of the article for you, its all there. At the end of the day the club is suspended form all juvenile hurling and football so that says a lot.

obi604

runawaybishop wrote: »

With respect, i'm not going to go and copy and paste bits of the article for you, its all there. At the end of the day the club is suspended form all juvenile hurling and football so that says a lot.

what does juvenile mean, up to under 16 ?

danganabu

runawaybishop wrote: »

You stated the parents didn't really seem to be bullied and croke park didn't reference any bullying. That statement directly contradicts this.

Furthermore the club officials called a meeting clearly designed to gather support for the clubs attempts to cover their arses and ridicule the complainants.

There are a few disingenuous posts in this thread alright.

Apologies for the confusion my intention was to highlight the fact there was no mention of orchastrated or systematic bullying on behalf of the club itself. Bullying in my mind is a very very serious accusation.

bruschi

runawaybishop wrote: »

With respect, i'm not going to go and copy and paste bits of the article for you, its all there. At the end of the day the club is suspended form all juvenile hurling and football so that says a lot.

thats fine. I dont see the date mentioned of where the letter was written and mediation for that particular complaint was dealt with. the club was not suspended from all action because an Under 12 coach said fcuk too often. It was the only specific thing I commented on. And it does say a lot, it says the club acted horrendously about valid complaints.

danganabu

obi604 wrote: »

what does juvenile mean, up to under 16 ?

Up to and including u16.

One thing that seems to have been glossed over and ignored here is the fact that there is a huge number of kids that will now be deprived of hurling and football because of the incompetency of a few who should have known better.

In my opinion the punishment doesnt really fit the crime in that those that are ultimately been punished did nothing wrong. How many of these kids will decide to play Soccer, Rugby or another sport and never return to the GAA.

evolving_doors

danganabu wrote: »

This case is the exact opposite of a cover up and organisational denial, the GAA have acted perfectly and appropriately and handed out a punishment that I very much doubt would have happened in a number of other sports.

Without wishing to put words in Stoner's mouth the reason IMO that Kimmage was the wrong man for this was that rather than attempting to highlight the issue with the intent of ensuring lessons were learnt and no such case would arise again, Kimmage was looking for the big sensationalist expose and clearly lost all objectivity as a result of his well documented disdain for the GAA.

It is also an extremely poorly written article, I had to read it four or five times to get the full picture and even now there are some elements that are unclear, and its at least twice the lenght it needed to be, it essientally amounts to a rant, which is a shame because as I alluded to above there is/was a very important message in their among all the ramblings and hyperbole.

I thought it was a little disjointed as it was copied and pasted into website, I dunno but if it was in hard copy and divided into distinct sections [preface, background, interview] it would have read better.

But im just not seeing any rant in there! Could you point out the rant, ramblings and hyperbole?
To my mind it was a statement of the events with a phone interview (which was mostly a repeat of the complainants claims).

The opening was a bit wishy washy but it still set the scene in terms of youth coaching in various sports.
He could have easily mentioned the scandals with swimming basketball soccer coaches, or recent child protection concerns in scouting. But chose not to. I was surprised at that, if he really wanted to do hyperbole that was very obvious material to miss.

obi604

danganabu wrote: »

Up to and including u16.

One thing that seems to have been glossed over and ignored here is the fact that there is a huge number of kids that will now be deprived of hurling and football because of the incompetency of a few who should have known better.

In my opinion the punishment doesnt really fit the crime in that those that are ultimately been punished did nothing wrong. How many of these kids will decide to play Soccer, Rugby or another sport and never return to the GAA.

true, any idea as to when the ban could be lifted? Are we talking months ?

evolving_doors

danganabu wrote: »

Up to and including u16.

One thing that seems to have been glossed over and ignored here is the fact that there is a huge number of kids that will now be deprived of hurling and football because of the incompetency of a few who should have known better.

In my opinion the punishment doesnt really fit the crime in that those that are ultimately been punished did nothing wrong. How many of these kids will decide to play Soccer, Rugby or another sport and never return to the GAA.

That's a bit of an unknown.
I doubt they'd give up GAA in Athenry.
Just get new people in, from what PK pointed out...

St Mary's, Athenry is one of the most fabled clubs in the GAA. Eight county championships, eight provincial titles and three All-Irelands, this is hurling country, and home to some of the best to have played the game:

Surely there most be someone in Athenry who had a working knowledge of how the game should be played.

There's plenty of arguing to the absurd going on with predictions of Armageddon. (On this thread and in the article).

"If these guys are punished you'll get nobody to do anything next year. The club will fall apart!"

danganabu

evolving_doors wrote: »

I thought it was a little disjointed as it was copied and pasted into website, I dunno but if it was in hard copy and divided into distinct sections [preface, background, interview] it would have read better.

But im just not seeing any rant in there! Could you point out the rant, ramblings and hyperbole?
To my mind it was a statement of the events with a phone interview (which was mostly a repeat of the complainants claims).

The opening was a bit wishy washy but it still set the scene in terms of youth coaching in various sports.
He could have easily mentioned the scandals with swimming basketball soccer coaches, or recent child protection concerns in scouting. But chose not to. I was surprised at that, if he really wanted to do hyperbole that was very obvious material to miss.

The whole article is a rant and if that's not rambling I suggest Mr Kimmage go back and do a refresher course on journalism.

danganabu

evolving_doors wrote: »

That's a bit of an unknown.
I doubt they'd give up GAA in Athenry.
Just get new people in, from what PK pointed out...
Surely there most be someone in Athenry who had a working knowledge of how the game should be played.

There's plenty of arguing to the absurd going on with predictions of Armageddon. (On this thread and in the article).

"If these guys are punished you'll get nobody to do anything next year. The club will fall apart!"

The juvenile club in its entirety has been sespended, thats over 300 young players being deprived of games, of course they will be driven to other sports.

Tell me how

danganabu wrote:

The juvenile club in its entirety has been sespended, thats over 300 young players being deprived of games, of course they will be driven to other sports.

I don't expect that the suspension will last long because of the impact on so many players. I'd say there's furious work going on behind the scenes to resolve this.

The fact that the suspension card was played will have a serious effect on clubs nationwide though to act appropriately should the need arise.

So often the threat of serious punishment is ignored because it's seen as empty words. That will no longer be the case.