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Under-age training misconduct

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,602 ✭✭✭ Hitman3000


    nice_guy80 wrote:
    Never said the parents have an agenda in this case.


    Did I say you did?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭ Ray Bloody Purchase


    Those differences are largely coming from biases which posters possess outside of the influence of the article.

    The writing style of the article is very much Paul Kimmage. A reference or quote from popular culture, in this case Animal Farm to provide context, chronological narrative mixed with dialog.

    Paul would argue that all he is doing is telling a story, he does not claim anyone is right or wrong. We presume he is on the side of the complainants but that is our interpretation as opposed to any direct words.

    Yes, he is telling a story. Poorly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,602 ✭✭✭ Hitman3000


    The article itself seemed to be a bit all over the shop. Very poorly written. It seems slightly directionless. Even from this thread there seems to be differences in what people conclude its primary aim is.


    The article is quite clear and concise, the thread is full of bias and whataboutery.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,602 ✭✭✭ Hitman3000


    Yes, he is telling a story. Poorly.


    Your opinion, nothing more.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,934 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Stoner


    mickeyk wrote:
    A lot of posters here seem to want to brush this aside as the club simply handling it badly, I think it goes beyond that, it looks like a devious and deliberate attempt to undermine and exact a sort of revenge on the complainants by making them public enemies in the community. The stupidity of the officers in this act is mind boggling.


    I agree with you 100 percent, but again this is only one side of the story. These secret meetings are very damaging, I've a friend in a very similar situation with his child, again it began around the same age group


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭ The_Honeybadger


    Stoner wrote: »
    I agree with you 100 percent, but again this is only one side of the story. These secret meetings are very damaging, I've a friend in a very similar situation with his child, again it began around the same age group

    Oh absolutely Stoner, I am sure the club have their side and I would be interested to hear it, the optics are very bad from the club point of view though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,881 ✭✭✭ WHIP IT!


    As much as the two mentors sound like your typical "agricultural" country type coaches, let's be perfectly honest here, that article is at least 1,000 words too long. Jesus, there's hardly anything in it!

    Mountain, molehill etc...


  • Registered Users Posts: 298 ✭✭ cantwbr1


    There are a couple of things about the article that jump out at me.
    Firstly, it’s frightening that in this day and age there are still coaches and clubs that do not seem to understand the concepts of child protection. The club has put itself in a position where the County Board/Croke Park had no choice but to suspend activities until the club shows that best practice is being adhered to.
    Secondly, it doesn’t appear that the parents involved made any attempt to engage the club after the incident at the U14 match. This, I am taking from the account given by Paul Kimmage where he states that the parents rang Croke Park 2 days after the incident. I would have thought that the first place to go is the club and escalate afterwards if unhappy with the response. I’m sure that if they were fobbed off by the club this would have been documented by PK.
    Thirdly, I’m not sure what the purpose of the article was. One narrative that could be taken is;
    • Parents have concerns regarding child welfare at the club and report it to Croke Park
    • Croke Park and the County Board investigate and find issues with the club
    • Croke Park and the County Board are unhappy with the response of the club
    • Club juvenile activities suspended by the County Board until issues resolved

    My belief that the above description, while damning of the club, is a positive one overall but doesn’t fit with the message being pushed by the paper


  • Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭ Smith614


    Typical Kimmage stirring . How can he name the coaches and club men involved and not name the complainants????? . The day is fast coming when there will be no one to look after teams.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,115 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bruschi


    Is there a case that in this article, no one comes out of it looking well?

    Kimmage - takes on a trivial enough matter and makes a 1,000 word 2 page spread and sensationalises something where the accused have apologised and the ruling authority have handed down sanctions. A poorly constructed article too that lacks a lot of detail for one that seems to detail a lot but say very little.
    The club - by far mostly to come out not looking well. Covering up the initial complaints, inadequately dealing with them, fobbing off parents, circling the wagons to support the mentors rather than dealing with it in house and apologising. Inexcusable actions
    The mentor/secretary - from a bygone era as per the D'unbelievables video. Shouting and roaring at kids is not going to work, it didnt before and it sure as hell wont now. Being on your own in a room with kids, a huge no no. Massive error of judgement, and particularly as the talk was going to be contentious in its content. (although I must say I dont believe for a second it was said they'd never wear the jersey again, more so they wouldnt play that age group again. Another reason to have a second mentor there to verify the conversation lost)
    The parents - could have gone to the club welfare officer, could have gone to the county welfare officer, but no, went straight to the highest authority welfare officer over their child being told they'd never wear a jersey again and being on their own when told that. An inexcusable action by the secretary, but why go straight to the top with it, and as in the piece, be "spitting blood" because they couldnt get through on the phone straight away. And sending the kids up an age grade then without approval.
    The kids - I'll leave out. not far to tarnish kids of that age who it seems is clear are being used as pawns by all involved.

    The only thing good to come out of it is that clubs who have wavering welfare officers or shaky structures in place to make sure this sort of stuff doesnt happen might look at it and get their house in order. I'd hope the majority do. I cant speak for any other than my own, but I know we are extremely stringent on vetting, coaching and all the guidelines that go with it. You have to be. The old days are long gone and there are many different troubles going on now. Clubs have to be aware of them and know their mentors are properly equipped to deal with it, even if it is just referring back to the club welfare officer or whatever.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,728 ✭✭✭ dilallio


    Smith614 wrote: »
    Typical Kimmage stirring . How can he name the coaches and club men involved and not name the complainants????? . The day is fast coming when there will be no one to look after teams.

    I'm pretty sure children are not allowed to be identified directly or by inference in newspaper articles, due to child-protection laws.

    I'm sure that there are other small clubs out there with similar style coaches - dedicated club men and women who coach juvenile teams the way they've always done, but have never taken part in child welfare courses, and consider it normal to roar and shout using choice language at young players regardless of age.

    If one good think comes from this article, hopefully it will be to encourage all clubs to take a closer look at their own operations and ensure that all juvenile coaches are fully aware and trained in current child welfare best practices.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 522 ✭✭✭ theyoungchap


    It was a brutally written article by PK, it was really "his style", i.e. a rant. I had to read it twice to figure out what on earth was the story.

    I don't think he should have named the officials, what they did was inexcusable (particularly the man in the dressing room) but surely one of the parents could have went to the lad over the team, and said "here pal, tone down the bad language will you, they are a bunch of 12 year olds". That would have been my approach anyway and if it didn't work, then I would absolutely take it to the committee, if that didn't work then you go above the club.

    But I still don't feel that the coaches deserved to be named in a national newspaper, the club reaction was a joke though (and the statement on the website nothing short of disgraceful) and they should have dealt with it better. Coach A and Coach B would have been enough for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,485 ✭✭✭ runawaybishop


    but surely one of the parents could have went to the lad over the team, and said "here pal, tone down the bad language will you, they are a bunch of 12 year olds". That would have been my approach anyway and if it didn't work, then I would absolutely take it to the committee, if that didn't work then you go above the club.

    That's exactly what they did though, the club ignored their complaints.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭ Bonniedog


    Our under 14s had to join Na Fianna Éireann.

    (I hope that PK is not reading this thread ...)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭ evolving_doors


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    Connected to this is a huge reason why so many fellas are put off going into teaching

    Having to deal with parents who are just waiting for the chance to stir things

    Well I'm in teaching and there are basic things you can do.
    1. Don't swear at kids.
    2. Don't be in a room alone with them. Although there were 2 id be fairly heading for the corridor with a small group if the other class have left.

    Did those numpties not do a child protection course?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭ evolving_doors


    Smith614 wrote: »
    Typical Kimmage stirring . How can he name the coaches and club men involved and not name the complainants????? . The day is fast coming when there will be no one to look after teams.

    Arguing to the absurd I see.

    You can look after a team, but don't be a pr1ck while you're doing it.
    Simple.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,669 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    Choochtown wrote: »
    No, I got all that and it is all evidence that the club handled parts of the affair badly.

    They've also handled parts of the affair well. (Letter of apology, attendance on a safeguarding course).

    Lots of questions remain unanswered.

    Did the parents really take their children off an Under 12 panel and "decide" that they would play at U14 level (a BIG step up) and then report the U12 mentor to the National Children's Officer at Croke Park without even so much as having a chat with him?

    Who contacted Kimmage with this information given that the article emphasises the "primacy of confidentiality"

    Is it fair that these 2 volunteer mentors get named and shamed in the national press?

    Kimmage has an axe to grind and the skills to grind it.

    Read his heavily emotive text on "Complainant A" (note that they are not identified) making a call to Croke Park ...

    He goes to voicemail ... He calls again ... "Not available right now" ... And again ...etc etc. .. ."spitting blood when he finally gets through" ...

    Kimmage makes sure the reader is rooting for complainant A by hinting that they are going through so much to get a complaint heard when in reality the opposite was true.

    I do hope your own club do not handle complaints in a similar manner especially if it involves minors, because you will probably give Kimmage enough ammunition to sink a battleship.

    BTW the two men involved can thank their own club for their names being published nationally as they lost all moral right to anonymity when the club organised a rally to basically bully the complainants.

    And for ****s sake I thought that village bullying shyteology had died out in Ireland, but it looks like Athenry would be quite happy going back to that days of Fethard-on-Sea.

    How the feck did they think it was a good idea to drag loads of people to the second meeting and basically bully ten year old complainants.
    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Kimmage hates "the gah". Wrote an article last year which he began with reference to seeing exciting matches and then let the mask slip with sh"t about cheating and violence on the pitch.

    There are undoubtedly issues in that club but this is like a fkn row over bingo calling or who was next on the pool table becoming the subject of a rival to "All the Presidents Men"!

    Okay, Paul, your sport is something people do to get to work and is totally corrupt. You were part of it yourself.

    That is a very fooking cheap shot and if you knew anything you would know he has been one of the most outspoken critics of cycling, to the fooking point of basically destroying his own livelihood.
    He helped take down the most successful rider and cheat in it's history.
    Bonniedog wrote: »
    You will have to do better to take down the most popular sports in the country. Get inline behind Gerry Kiernan and all the other bitter fkers.

    Maybe you are another who has a mentality that harks back to the days when Ireland was quite happy burying inconvenient truths.
    See how easy it is to call into question ones character. :rolleyes:

    And if you could see past your disdain for the writer you might see how the GAA hierarchy and institutional child protection system they have comes out of this quite good, in that they have come down on the club for their behaviour.
    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    Connected to this is a huge reason why so many fellas are put off going into teaching

    Having to deal with parents who are just waiting for the chance to stir things

    Yes some parents can be awkward, but some teachers and some coaches can be awkward pr*cks too.
    And we all know how some people are "the backbone of clubs and played at every level" and thus get away with a lot of shyte that others wouldn't ever dream of.

    The fact that you along with some other GAA heads here are adopting the very same stance as those in the Garda by claiming it is a non story and basically taking pops at the complainants (which actually also includes kids so bravo for that) are making it very much into a story.

    If the club had bothered it's ass to do something in the first place then it would never have mushroomed into what it has become.
    And to compound the issue they instigated effectively a bullying campaign against the complainants.
    Fookin hell to complete the return to 1950s Ireland why didn't they get the local parish priest to lambast them from the pulpit.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,115 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bruschi


    That's exactly what they did though, the club ignored their complaints.

    the man in question wrote a written apology did he not? so not ignored. I'm not going to argue he or the club were correct in any of their dealings (particularly the rallying of the troops), but the club also cant be accused of ignoring the complaints.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,669 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    bruschi wrote: »
    the man in question wrote a written apology did he not? so not ignored. I'm not going to argue he or the club were correct in any of their dealings (particularly the rallying of the troops), but the club also cant be accused of ignoring the complaints.

    They only did it when pushed by Croke Park and County.

    They had a good chance to set up internal committee and handle it nice and quietly.
    But they did nothing and then when finally pushed they enacted a bullying campaign, a campaign that ultimately involved kids.

    If I was one those parents of the two kids and after the other parents organised get together, going to Paul Kimmage with the story would be the least of their problems.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭ Bonniedog


    jmayo wrote: »


    That is a very fooking cheap shot and if you knew anything you would know he has been one of the most outspoken critics of cycling, to the fooking point of basically destroying his own livelihood.
    He helped take down the most successful rider and cheat in it's history.



    Maybe you are another who has a mentality that harks back to the days when Ireland was quite happy burying inconvenient truths.
    See how easy it is to call into question ones character. :rolleyes:

    And if you could see past your disdain for the writer you might see how the GAA hierarchy and institutional child protection system they have comes out of this quite good, in that they have come down on the club for their behaviour.




    Been involved in GAA all my more than 50 years. Don't need Kimmage who clearly hates GAA to lecture us.

    By the way if you think the "Old Ireland" was bad, wait to see what we have in store for us.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,669 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Been involved in GAA all my more than 50 years. Don't need Kimmage who clearly hates GAA to lecture us.

    So would rather this was brushed under the carpet or is it just the fact that Kimmage wrote it ?

    BTW where do you stand on what Athenry did by calling in all the "other" parents to organise support i.e. a bullying campaign of sorts ?

    Where do you stand on Athenry juvenile secretary talking to two lads on his own in a room ?
    Bonniedog wrote: »
    By the way if you think the "Old Ireland" was bad, wait to see what we have in store for us.

    ??
    What does that mean ?

    I detested the old Ireland where the opinions of the parish priest, the local Garda sergeant and the local powers that be, funnily enough often those involved in local GAA club, could destroy lives.

    Anything is an improvement on that.

    BTW if anything I am proud of the way Croke Park appear to be handling this.
    They realise what century we are in unlike the ones down in Athenry and some of their supporters around here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭ Bonniedog


    As others have said, including myself, it was badly handled.

    However, it is part of agenda by person concerned to attack GAA, and indeed part of wider agenda to attack things that they loathe.

    And if you wish to see what they want to replace us with, maybe read Project 2040 or visit parts of south London or the Parisian suburbs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,682 ✭✭✭ Fann Linn


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    As others have said, including myself, it was badly handled.

    However, it is part of agenda by person concerned to attack GAA, and indeed part of wider agenda to attack things that they loathe.

    And if you wish to see what they want to replace us with, maybe read Project 2040 or visit parts of south London or the Parisian suburbs.

    I actually think GAA HQ come out of this well. It's Athenry GAA where the problem lies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,669 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    As others have said, including myself, it was badly handled.

    Badly handled is a fooking understatement.
    They first tried to bury it by doing nothing and then when pushed by Croke Park they tried to use the other parents to bully the complainants.

    That to me is a low scummy move and something that harks back to an Ireland thankfully gone in most places.
    Bonniedog wrote: »
    However, it is part of agenda by person concerned to attack GAA, and indeed part of wider agenda to attack things that they loathe.

    I would actually say Kimmage attacks a lot.
    In fact to some people involved in his old sport cycling he would be seen as an agenda driven loon.
    In fact I would see him as having agendas on lots of things actually to the point of being cranky, but we need cranky people to shine a light into bad behaviour that others shy away from.
    For far too long in this country we covered up too much shyte.
    Bonniedog wrote: »
    And if you wish to see what they want to replace us with, maybe read Project 2040 or visit parts of south London or the Parisian suburbs.

    Jaysus you obviously never read some of my posts on boards. ;)

    Just because we might not like somethings possibly coming down the road doesn't mean what went before was anyway desirable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭ evolving_doors


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    As others have said, including myself, it was badly handled.

    However, it is part of agenda by person concerned to attack GAA, and indeed part of wider agenda to attack things that they loathe.

    And if you wish to see what they want to replace us with, maybe read Project 2040 or visit parts of south London or the Parisian suburbs.

    I'd say local GAA clubs would act better in Paris or south London.
    Unless you're arguing to the absurd like a lot of others round here.

    It's been said umpteen times before that the GAA acted above board, the local club did not. Where did kimmage criticise the GAA head office.
    Keep up


  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭ Choochtown


    jmayo wrote: »
    I do hope you are not involved with a club with regards to complaints handling especially if it involves minors because you will probably give Kimmage enough ammunition to sink a battleship.
    .


    Please apologise and withdraw that comment unless you can find a shred of evidence on this forum that would suggest that I would be anything less than fair and upfront regarding complaints involving minors.

    It's disgusting that someone I've never met would resort to personal snide allegations because I happen to have a different opinion to them regarding an article in a newspaper.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,485 ✭✭✭ runawaybishop


    bruschi wrote: »
    the man in question wrote a written apology did he not? so not ignored. I'm not going to argue he or the club were correct in any of their dealings (particularly the rallying of the troops), but the club also cant be accused of ignoring the complaints.

    Amazing how two people can read the same thing and see totally different things

    He apologized because he was forced to by head office.

    The reason head office was involved was because the club ignored complaints. That's the entire thrust of the article. How on earth did you read that the club didn't ignore complaints?

    Even after the findings against them the club publically posted a bull****e statement saying they didn't do anything wrong and were then forced to remove it as it was manifestly untrue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,669 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    Choochtown wrote: »
    Please apologise and withdraw that comment unless you can find a shred of evidence on this forum that would suggest that I would be anything less than fair and upfront regarding complaints involving minors.

    It's disgusting that someone I've never met would resort to personal snide allegations because I happen to have a different opinion to them regarding an article in a newspaper.

    I edited my post above.

    My gripe with your opinion is that it appears to be that you think that there wasn't that much wrong with the way things were handled.

    You continously tried to downplay the seriousness of the way club officials handled things.

    I don't know you no more than you know me, you could be the most fair minded person on the planet, but the opinion you put across in your posts didn't exactly highlight that picture.

    My gripe is not with the GAA, Croke Park but with Athenry club and it's members.
    They screwed up, but rather than take the opportunity offered by GAA HQ they had to be dragged into an investigation and discussion.
    And then they really got nasty by using the old Irish tactic of trying to bully the ones standing out back into line by getting everyone else to tow the party line.
    Shame on Athenry GAA club.

    That last part to me is the really disgusting thing about this story.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭ Bonniedog


    I'd say local GAA clubs would act better in Paris or south London.


    Well. I won't be around to see Dublin descending into the multi cultural gutter, but you perhaps shall see this come to pass. Enjoy :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭ Olsky


    rgace wrote: »
    "our son and another player were asked to stay back in the dressing room by John Cloonan. John shoved the door out, and at this point our son and the other player were on their own in the dressing room with John. "

    These were 10 year old children, what a complete gobshíte.
    big_drive wrote: »
    Interesting read.
    Easy to see why it’s hard to get volunteers in clubs , it’s dangerous these days. You could be accused of anything, often falsely
    "NEVER BE ALONE WITH KIDS. NO EXCUSES."
    never be in an suitation where you are alone with any child be it one or one hundred.
    No.
    What is bang out of order is that man taking two young boys into a dressing room and closing the door. He is damn lucky that no allegations were made against him,
    Just for accuracy....
    There is no evidence that they were 'behind closed doors' or in a 'closed room'.

    it is the contention of e official that he door wasn't closed, it was open/ajar, and that he asked to lads to wait a second after the others ran out onto the pitch.
    Choochtown wrote: »
    As I said. No proof whatsoever that he closed the door.
    I'm not backing him, I'm not condoning what he did, it was wrong.
    BUT there's only the word of "a neighbour's boy" told to a parent in a stand that he closed the door.

    It may seem like a minor point but the snide insinuations are very unfair particularly as the man in question has been named and continues to be so.
    jackboy wrote: »
    It makes no difference if the door was open or closed. He was alone with them which is unacceptable.
    given the history of child abuse in sporting organisations,
    Clear breaches of the safeguards for children are not in dispute..

    Sure maybe go back to the days of sending him up to the priests house alone to discuss what a bold boy he is in privacy............
    2. Don't be in a room alone with them. Although there were 2 id be fairly heading for the corridor with a small group if the other class have left.

    Did those numpties not do a child protection course?

    Maybe this paedophile paranoia and the snide insulations that coaches want to sexually abuse children are going a bit too far.


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