Under-age training misconduct

Fann Linn

Road-Hog wrote: »

Does anyone know what kimmage’s motivation is here other than trying to get readers attention. Is he anti gaa by nature or is he trying to just fill his column on a Sunday/weekend that has little else going on sport wise.quote]


From this article there is no inference at all that Kimmage has an anti GAA agenda. Its quite clear who is at fault here, and it ain't the kids, their parents or Croke Park HQ.

ArielAtom

Foe my two cents worth, I think there have been failings on both sides here, the club are negligent in their approach to child protection, the parents on going over the clubs head to Croke Park if that is really the case and not a final act of desperation on their behalf. I have coached 5 to 15 yr olds in both GAA and Soccer, and yes I can say parents can have expectations way beyond the ability of their kids, but also coaches can have had a bad day at the office or a row with the missus and vent when coaching, although there are no excuses for that. Was this the norm at there coaching sessions or was it a couple of times? The real problem I have was a club officer in a room with juveniles alone, he was either ignorant or had a total lack of respect for the rules, which are there not only to protect the child but also the adult.
I had to deal with a similar situation a number of years ago, we received a complaint from a parent regarding the language being used by a coach, it was by way of an phone call to our GPO, he contacted me and asked could I deal with it as the coordinator of our group. I thought about it and called an informal meeting 10mins before a coaching session and just went through our policies with regards to appropriate language and behaviour when dealing with minors, I did not single out one person and everyone bought into it. Problem solved and parent happy. Kid is still playing 6yrs later and enjoying every minute. BTW they were 9 at the time if the report. I think Kimmage is looking to keep himself relevant with the way he has delivered his piece. Yes there was wrong doing but it could have been reported better.

Lackey

However, the children of those 16 parents who complained officially now have their cards marked unfortunately now that their parents have basically pitted themselves against the club.

It's unlikely that any of them will ever make county now because their will be a question mark over their loyalty due to their parents.[/quote]

I would guess this is why the original complainants 'distanced' themselves from the letter
This and witnessing the meetings about the parents who complained.

I also don't understand the posters here saying the parents went 'above the clubs head to the gaa'
They tried to sort it out in house, they didn't just pull the trigger.

From the interview at the end I don't see anything changing in that club anyway.

Widdensushi

Lackey wrote: »

However, the children of those 16 parents who complained officially now have their cards marked unfortunately now that their parents have basically pitted themselves against the club.

It's unlikely that any of them will ever make county now because their will be a question mark over their loyalty due to their parents.

I would guess this is why the original complainants 'distanced' themselves from the letter
This and witnessing the meetings about the parents who complained.

I also don't understand the posters here saying the parents went 'above the clubs head to the gaa'
They tried to sort it out in house, they didn't just pull the trigger.

From the interview at the end I don't see anything changing in that club anyway.[/QUOTE]

There were sixteen signatures on the letter, the article doesn't mention whether it was signed by children, parents or passers-by. It could have the parents of the two children and connections who had the incident a couple of months later?

Smith614

Ryan Tubridy had another "anonymous" letter from a parent this morning letting everyone know how amazing her local rugby club was for her sons confidence and esteem and then went on to tell how quickly all this was destroyed by the local gaa club when her son went back training gaa a few weeks ago. He is only put on as a sub in gaa matches so she not happy. Anonymity is a great thing when it comes to bashing. When her son gets to u12 rugby or whatever age it gets competitive she will probably be onto Ryan complaing that her son never misses training and is sub and the rugby are a disgrace.

The_Honeybadger

Smith614 wrote: »

Ryan Tubridy had another "anonymous" letter from a parent this morning letting everyone know how amazing her local rugby club was for her sons confidence and esteem and then went on to tell how quickly all this was destroyed by the local gaa club when her son went back training gaa a few weeks ago. He is only put on as a sub in gaa matches so she not happy. Anonymity is a great thing when it comes to bashing. When her son gets to u12 rugby or whatever age it gets competitive she will probably be onto Ryan complaing that her son never misses training and is sub and the rugby are a disgrace.

There is no evidence or even claim that this whole thing escalated because certain kids weren’t being picked to play, it was over a child protection issue. The above is yet another insinuation that the parents (or anybody except the club) are somehow to blame here.

And anonymity was not afforded to the parents in this case, in fact it was very much the opposite, they were the subject of a public meeting where they were effectively named and shamed.

Hitman3000

Smith614 wrote:

Ryan Tubridy had another "anonymous" letter from a parent this morning letting everyone know how amazing her local rugby club was for her sons confidence and esteem and then went on to tell how quickly all this was destroyed by the local gaa club when her son went back training gaa a few weeks ago. He is only put on as a sub in gaa matches so she not happy. Anonymity is a great thing when it comes to bashing. When her son gets to u12 rugby or whatever age it gets competitive she will probably be onto Ryan complaing that her son never misses training and is sub and the rugby are a disgrace.

Wasn't the club asked by the GAA to keep everything confidential whilst an enquiry was on going? Instead of abiding by the request they organised a public meeting to highlight the issue and excluded the parents who made a compliant from the meeting.

bruschi

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Wasn't the club asked by the GAA to keep everything confidential whilst an enquiry was on going? Instead of abiding by the request they organised a public meeting to highlight the issue and excluded the parents who made a compliant from the meeting.

indeed. And also posted up praise worthy news of the findings of the report that essentially said they had nothing to answer for. Again, most, if not all of this, could have been resolved very early and very quickly if they held their hands up and apologised to the parents and children. The cover up and stead fast refusal to accept no wrong and being so stubborn has caused them serious problems.

ChippingSodbury

Smith614 wrote: »

Ryan Tubridy had another "anonymous" letter from a parent this morning letting everyone know how amazing her local rugby club was for her sons confidence and esteem and then went on to tell how quickly all this was destroyed by the local gaa club when her son went back training gaa a few weeks ago. He is only put on as a sub in gaa matches so she not happy. Anonymity is a great thing when it comes to bashing. When her son gets to u12 rugby or whatever age it gets competitive she will probably be onto Ryan complaing that her son never misses training and is sub and the rugby are a disgrace.

It's quite possible. But that's not the kernel of the issue with Athenry: the issue here is that they didn't follow proper procedures (procedures that are mandatory as stated by the GAA) in dealing with complaints in relation to Child Protection. It may well be that the complaints weren't valid but Athenry's process didn't investigate or come to that conclusion. in fact, it appears they didn't follow any procedure because they didn't do anything. Not only that, but when directed by the County Board to hold an investigation, it appears that the club didn't follow that direction either. Instead, they appear to have tried to undermine the complainants in public view of the other members of their club.
That's the issue here, not whether the initial complaints were valid or not.

danganabu

Road-Hog wrote: »

Does anyone know what kimmage’s motivation is here other than trying to get readers attention. Is he anti gaa by nature

I dont particulary like Kimmage or his appraoch but I dont think he is anti GAA per se, more that he is anti large organisations of any sort, he would have been equally scathing if it had been a Rugby or Soccer club to be fair. He has oppointed himself as the guardian of all little men against the big bad organisations as a result of his excelent work on the Cycling front, which quite clearly gave him a taste for the expose's.

Tell me how

danganabu wrote:

I dont particulary like Kimmage or his appraoch but I dont think he is anti GAA per se, more that he is anti large organisations of any sort, he would have been equally scathing if it had been a Rugby or Soccer club to be fair. He has oppointed himself as the guardian of all little men against the big bad organisations as a result of his excelent work on the Cycling front, which quite clearly gave him a taste for the expose's.

The only thing I disagree with here is that I don't think he appointed himself anything. He has assumed his persona by his actions in trying to find some reality behind the marketing narrative sports organisations want to portray.

He is unwavering in his consistency because if he wasn't, he'd be accused of being "anti" one sport or another.

I agree that at this point he can be hard to read because negativity is never far away. Thing is, he doesn't make up these stories. They exist and need to be told.

Fann Linn

Ivan discussing this on NT later today

Bonniedog

Fann Linn wrote: »

Ivan discussing this on NT later today

Wouldn't happen at his "beloved City."

See, this is where all this stuff leads.

ProudDUB

Smith614 wrote: »

Ryan Tubridy had another "anonymous" letter from a parent this morning letting everyone know how amazing her local rugby club was for her sons confidence and esteem and then went on to tell how quickly all this was destroyed by the local gaa club when her son went back training gaa a few weeks ago. He is only put on as a sub in gaa matches so she not happy. Anonymity is a great thing when it comes to bashing. When her son gets to u12 rugby or whatever age it gets competitive she will probably be onto Ryan complaing that her son never misses training and is sub and the rugby are a disgrace.

And that has what to do exactly, with the kernel of PK's article?

Are you firmly on the side of the aul lad brigade who think that they should be let do and say whatever they want, to whomever they want? And the parents who object, are all precious snowflakes?

Are you firmly on the side of clubs who want to stick their heads in the sand (at best) and resort to bullying tactics (at worst) when one of their own, is found to be woefully behind the times, in how they treat young kids?

Because that is the impression you are creating with your post.

PARlance

Fann Linn wrote: »

Ivan discussing this on NT later today

Well we all know it's the main reason Apple pulled plug.

Bonniedog

Did someone seriously suggest that!!

Please tell me not. Couldn't listen to your man. If I want to hear about English soccer I will get Manchester radio on line.

Ardent

I happened to catch it. Yer man - whoever he was - was trying to be as impartial as possible, referencing Belgian soccer's approach of development over competition, but ultimately suggesting that it was a mountain out of a molehill and that there needs to be a competitive spirit. Yates played his usual devil's advocate card and suggested that kids today (read millennials) might be "snowflakes".

It seemed to escape this guy's attention that they were 10 year olds. At the end of the day, there's a big difference between swearing around children and swearing at them.

evolving_doors

Stoner wrote: »

As in most cases people want the perpetrator punished. I don't see any greater good in banning the kids, but I guess that's is the punishment they can and did hand out

Eh, who 'banned the kids'? The club was suspended.

Will the club (when it reforms) start to implement proper procedures when dealing with children?
If so, then that far outweighs a missing season.

Proper child protection procedures vs' keeping the heads in the sand and the kids togged out.
Which is the greater good, because in cases like this you can't have both.

evolving_doors

Ardent wrote: »

I happened to catch it. Yer man - whoever he was - was trying to be as impartial as possible, referencing Belgian soccer's approach of development over competition, but ultimately suggesting that it was a mountain out of a molehill and that there needs to be a competitive spirit. Yates played his usual devil's advocate card and suggested that kids today (read millennials) might be "snowflakes".

It seemed to escape this guy's attention that they were 10 year olds. At the end of the day, there's a big difference between swearing around children and swearing at them.

Ewen McKenna was a little bit effusive, although he did praise PK for the article and how it was written.

I just had a quick listen to the interview. HERE

Ewen: " ...when you're talking about kids who are 11 or 12, they can see through the bull****, quite frankly. They're competitive too and want to be treated as adults. I know a lot of coaches who ,might wrongly to an extent, use bad language but there's a big difference aswell ... there's degrees in all of this. I mean there's a difference between using bad language around kids of that age and towards kids of that age."

See the little bit of revisionism going on, implying that there was just a bit of swearing 'around' the children and not at them.

He said kids want to be treated as adults! If I was sworn at like that in my adult life I wouldn't count it as acceptable, or consider myself as being a 'snowflake' by not taking it.
Then he said there is a bit of snowflake going on 'to a point'.
Then he mentioned ..."the guy talking to 2 kids alone in a dressing room, no that's not inherently evil"... interestingly he failed to mention the complainant's version as to what was alleged to have been said.
Then he concluded with the argument to the absurd about not being able to get volunteers (is this the greater good?). Then an anecdote about pushy parents ... hint hint. Then 3 texts from Ivan against the parent's version of events (no harm in coaches swearing, couple of parents throwing their toys out of the pram, taking the high moral ground on people swearing).

Tell me how

^^^^^^

I'm a bit lost. What point are you making here? Are you talking about McKenna or Yates?

Stoner

evolving_doors wrote:

Eh, who 'banned the kids'? The club was suspended.

Well they can't play other teams now can they, is that not a ban? The club was suspended so they can't play in competitions.

Calhoun

evolving_doors wrote: »

Ewen McKenna was a little bit effusive, although he did praise PK for the article and how it was written.

I just had a quick listen to the interview. HERE


See the little bit of revisionism going on, implying that there was just a bit of swearing 'around' the children and not at them.

He said kids want to be treated as adults! If I was sworn at like that in my adult life I wouldn't count it as acceptable, or consider myself as being a 'snowflake' by not taking it.
Then he said there is a bit of snowflake going on 'to a point'.
Then he mentioned ..."the guy talking to 2 kids alone in a dressing room, no that's not inherently evil"... interestingly he failed to mention the complainant's version as to what was alleged to have been said.
Then he concluded with the argument to the absurd about not being able to get volunteers (is this the greater good?). Then an anecdote about pushy parents ... hint hint. Then 3 texts from Ivan against the parent's version of events (no harm in coaches swearing, couple of parents throwing their toys out of the pram, taking the high moral ground on people swearing).

The journalist McKenna does a complete whitewash of the issue and basically turns it into a poor mouth argument for the volunteers.

Completely fails to address the reaction from the club that makes this an actual newsworthy topic.

dixiefly

Are the Athenry Juvenile club still suspended over this?

K.G.

Something i think is forgotten here is this a club not a service provider.nothing stopping anyone from getting involved in a team and ensuring that things are done right.by the same token no team or club belongs to anyone no matter how much work they put into it.my reading of this is that whole was handled badly on both sides -both sides choose routes that were short sighted and narrow minded that has resulted in a huge mess from a situation that occurrs in every club from time to time

Hitman3000

K.G. wrote:

Something i think is forgotten here is this a club not a service provider.nothing stopping anyone from getting involved in a team and ensuring that things are done right.by the same token no team or club belongs to anyone no matter how much work they put into it.my reading of this is that whole was handled badly on both sides -both sides choose routes that were short sighted and narrow minded that has resulted in a huge mess from a situation that occurrs in every club from time to time

Both sides handled it badly? What exactly have the parents done wrong, I 'm genuinely curious.

K.G.

Get involved in the team,dosent matter what role as long as there is enough there to ensure that there is loads of adults present.i have seen similar situations over the years andthe best way is to get involved and make your presence felt and build relationships which allow you to force change.offical complaints and letters never work as we have seen where the normal reaction is the them and us.a club is a club which is a group of people with a common interest.my experience has shown me that alot of people are qyiet happy to say what should be done but not alot are to work to make it happen

Tell me how

K.G. wrote: »

Get involved in the team,dosent matter what role as long as there is enough there to ensure that there is loads of adults present.i have seen similar situations over the years andthe best way is to get involved and make your presence felt and build relationships which allow you to force change.offical complaints and letters never work as we have seen where the normal reaction is the them and us.a club is a club which is a group of people with a common interest.my experience has shown me that alot of people are qyiet happy to say what should be done but not alot are to work to make it happen

This is the case in most walks of life, and certainly all sports I think. There will always be experts who talk a good game but never get involved for an extended period.
Having a guy offer to coach the under 16's the 1 year his son is on the edge of a county panel is not a good idea either for example.

Clubs have to find a way to work with the reality that only a few people are cut out for volunteering work and coaching and that if the children of every parent who was all talk and no action were excluded or removed then numbers would suffer.

The structures which are in place are to allow for appropriate resolution of issues but they are not always followed correctly. As in this case.

runawaybishop

K.G. wrote: »

Get involved in the team,dosent matter what role as long as there is enough there to ensure that there is loads of adults present.i have seen similar situations over the years andthe best way is to get involved and make your presence felt and build relationships which allow you to force change.offical complaints and letters never work as we have seen where the normal reaction is the them and us.a club is a club which is a group of people with a common interest.my experience has shown me that alot of people are qyiet happy to say what should be done but not alot are to work to make it happen

At least one of that parents involved played for the county. They should not be considered 'them'.

freedominacup

runawaybishop wrote: »

At least one of that parents involved played for the county. They should not be considered 'them'.

Very easy to become them and surprisingly easy to become us in a situation like this. Happened to me a year after I stepped down as club chairman and only a couple of months after the group I was with finished managing the senior mens team in the club. The mentor in question was involved in the club nevermind training teams omly about 18 months. Seems to be a default setting with clubs to circle the wagons in the event of a complaint about a juvenile coach.

I ended up stepping back, he ended up reducing the roster of the team he was involved with by around 75% before the son was recruited by a "senior" soccer club with an angle at some sort of representative team. He duly left. My lad went back playing and is enjoying it. I was asked to give a hand with the team by the juvenile committee last year.

The writing was on the wall as to how that situation was going to play out for anyone who cared to look but all the pressure was brought to bare on me to withdraw my objection to his reappointment. The club will survive but there's going to be a bit of a shortage of players coming through from juvenile for a couple of years.

blanch152

danganabu wrote: »

Apologies for the confusion my intention was to highlight the fact there was no mention of orchastrated or systematic bullying on behalf of the club itself. Bullying in my mind is a very very serious accusation.

Well, yes, the holding of the meeting of all parents, breaking the confidence of the investigation process, may not constitute orchestrated or systematic bullying on behalf of the club itself, but it is certainly not acceptable and the relevant committee members should be suspended by the club. Then they should deal with the mentors who bullied the kids.

danganabu wrote: »

The juvenile club in its entirety has been sespended, thats over 300 young players being deprived of games, of course they will be driven to other sports.

Not necessarily, the club can deal properly with the issues raised, no matter how powerful and respected those accused of wrongdoing are.