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Recommend alternative to Triton T90sr and Mira QT elite showers?

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    #32
    Damoedge
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Damoedge


    John.G wrote: »
    This is fascinating information and does cast some doubt over the T90 SR, my friend has been reading these posts as well and is getting cold feet (no pun intended). I,m amazed he didnt check the heating can resistance(s) etc, don't know if it contravenes safety rules but I wonder did he check the voltage at the shower terminals while it was running on full load, one would think that the service engineer would have some type of wiring harness made up so that he could safely monitor this. Even with 226V average and allowing for a cable voltage drop of 3V then the 9.0 KW shower should still have been producing almost 8.5 KW and anyhow your old shower would/should have been running under the same conditions (same cabling).
    If Triton offered to get that unit replaced with another T90 SR, including free installation, would you consider it?

    No he didn't check the can...I was there watching him!
    He just did what I said above...once his meter told him that the voltage was off a few volts he was out of there! And yes he did test the voltage with the unit on up to the last....

    I'll say it again why would a like for like shower perform worse than the old one....it's no use trying to factor in the house electrics or plumbing as nothing was changed! The old shower that was working fine was taken off and the new one installed!....the only reason I bought this shower was because I saw the ads on the tv about how quite it was and yes it is quite....but again it's not Rocket science here...Like for like straight swap and the new shower does not perform well!! I'm sorry but to me and I'll say it again it's completely the new showers fault here nothing else!

    To answer your other question I did ask them to replace and install a new shower but they said no to that which I was a little bit surprised by it....I just had a gut feeling that their engineer and his test was a bit too quick and as I said when he said not to tell ESB about him being there that's when I got suspicious and did my own tests along with our electricians tests.

    I just regret that on the day the engineer was there I should have got out my own multimeter in front of him but sure your not prepared for this sort of thing....oh and another thing...he would not let me take a picture of the reading on his multimeter with my phone....again strange.


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    #33
    Damoedge
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Damoedge


    Wearb wrote: »
    What size is shower cable?
    What is the length of the run?
    Is it exposed or covered?
    Is anything else taken off it?

    10 mm
    About 3 meters to box to its own breaker
    Covered
    Nothing else taking off it.


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    #34
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭John.G


    Triton would want to get their act together or people will be going back to the "bad" old Mira!


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    #35
    Damoedge
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Damoedge


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    If it was an issue with the shower then the only part it could be is the element. I'm baffled as to why he didn't at least try a different element. You'd know once & for all. Your electrician friend was spot on about calibration. Usually in shower repair calibration isn't that important. We want to see around 230 volts. Most of the other tests aren't voltage and can be done with the power off.

    If it's not the voltage coming into the house then it has to be a faulty element. I wonder is it possible that a 7.5kw element fell into the wrong pile in the factory in the UK. They all look the same. Black body & copper top. No markings to know what kW it is.


    It was me that asked the question about there meter being calibrated....I am an engineer myself and I know theses things ;)

    I was under the impression that the engineer in the first place was coming out to install a new shower from the conversations I had with Triton over the phone....in fact they even said it that if there was a problem with the shower the engineer has loads of showers in the van I was told!!

    It could be that an element fell into the wrong pile...something happened somewhere that I know...lol...


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    #36
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    Pity there wasn't more extensive testing on it, but I suppose if the engineer got 216V on his first test, he just more or less gave up.

    Anybody else following this thread with the SR that could do some simple tests for us for comparison?

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #37
    Damoedge
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Damoedge


    John.G wrote: »
    Triton would want to get their act together or people will be going back to the "bad" old Mira!

    Well I'm lucky to be getting my money back....but....I still have to pay for the plumber to install a new one so that will be another €80 out of pocket....I even bought two different low pressure shower heads to see would that help matters and they didn't....another €30 down the drain!


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    #38
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭John.G


    Wearb wrote: »
    Pity there wasn't more extensive testing on it, but I suppose if the engineer got 216V on his first test, he just more or less gave up.

    Anybody else following this thread with the SR that could do some simple tests for us for comparison?

    How many people I wonder are running with faulty showers because of that multimeter because any house that would read 230V on it would need a actual voltage of 241V.
    As you say it would be great if some users of this model did a few simple tests.


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    #39
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    John.G wrote: »
    How many people I wonder are running with faulty showers because of that multimeter because any house that would read 230V on it would need a actual voltage of 241V.
    As you say it would be great if some users of this model did a few simple tests.
    Well there is the slim possibility that the multimeter was correct and at that time there was excessive load on the supply. * That wouldn’t account for continued poor performance of the shower though, but would give him reason to act as he did.

    *When my neighbor welds (rarely TG), I get a dip in power.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #40
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,985 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Just put the multi meter on my own Triton T90SR. Meter has never been calibrated but its less than a year old. Good quality fluke.

    Voltage with shower off 236 volts & running the shower flat out it dropped to 226 volt but it functioned perfectly at that rate.

    Shower is downstairs. Cable run is 4 to 5 metres. 10mm cable to a 40 amp rcbo


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    #41
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Just put the multi meter on my own Triton T90SR. Meter has never been calibrated but its less than a year old. Good quality fluke.

    Voltage with shower off 236 volts & running the shower flat out it dropped to 226 volt but it functioned perfectly at that rate.

    Shower is downstairs. Cable run is 4 to 5 metres. 10mm cable to a 40 amp rcbo
    Do you measure the voltage at meter box AND close to shower? I am interested to know if any of that voltage drop was due to you ESB supply or tails.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #42
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭John.G


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Just put the multi meter on my own Triton T90SR. Meter has never been calibrated but its less than a year old. Good quality fluke.

    Voltage with shower off 236 volts & running the shower flat out it dropped to 226 volt but it functioned perfectly at that rate.

    Shower is downstairs. Cable run is 4 to 5 metres. 10mm cable to a 40 amp rcbo

    What about that jug test?, as your shower is obviously A1 then it would be interesting to see its flowrate now. I would expect around 3.6 to 3.9 LPM.


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    #43
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    John.G wrote: »
    What about that jug test?, as your shower is obviously A1 then it would be interesting to see its flowrate now. I would expect around 3.6 to 3.9 LPM.
    We have to get him into the attic as well John :D There'll be no sleep for sleeper now :pac::pac::pac:

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #44
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,985 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Wearb wrote:
    Do you measure the voltage at meter box AND close to shower? I am interested to know if any of that voltage drop was due to you ESB supply or tails.

    236 at the meter & dropped to 230 with the shower on full.

    Resistance on the elements are 13 and 11


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    #45
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,985 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Wearb wrote:
    We have to get him into the attic as well John There'll be no sleep for sleeper now


    I'm not taking the ladder out of the van. Its a Saturday night ffs. :)


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    #46
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    236 at the meter & dropped to 230 with the shower on full.

    Resistance on the elements are 13 and 11
    That's well within the allowable drop afaik.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #47
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I'm not taking the ladder out of the van. Its a Saturday night ffs. :)
    Only 18:40 :rolleyes:

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #48
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,985 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    John.G wrote:
    What about that jug test?, as your shower is obviously A1 then it would be interesting to see its flowrate now. I would expect around 3.6 to 3.9 LPM.


    Didn't put a thermometer on it but had it hot enough for a very hot shower its running around 3.3 litres per minute


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    #49
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭John.G


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    236 at the meter & dropped to 230 with the shower on full.

    Resistance on the elements are 13 and 11

    Those two resistances in parallel = total resistance of 5.96 ohms.

    Power output = 230*230/5.96/1000 = 8.89 KW so you definitely have a 9 KW shower.


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    #50
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭John.G


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Didn't put a thermometer on it but had it hot enough for a very hot shower its running around 3.3 litres per minute

    That sounds spot on, gives a showering temp of around 45/46C.

    I think all this is very conclusive proof that this shower can produce the goods and Triton have just made another sale to my friend.


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    #51
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,985 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    John.G wrote:
    I think all this is very conclusive proof that this shower can produce the goods and Triton have just made another sale to my friend.


    It's a pity the engineer didn't replace Damoedges element. They are loosing what sounds like a lifelong customer by lazy diagnostics


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    #52
    Damoedge
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Damoedge


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Just put the multi meter on my own Triton T90SR. Meter has never been calibrated but its less than a year old. Good quality fluke.

    Voltage with shower off 236 volts & running the shower flat out it dropped to 226 volt but it functioned perfectly at that rate.

    Shower is downstairs. Cable run is 4 to 5 metres. 10mm cable to a 40 amp rcbo

    Same volts when I tested ours running at full load too...


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    #53
    Damoedge
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Damoedge


    John.G wrote: »
    What about that jug test?, as your shower is obviously A1 then it would be interesting to see its flowrate now. I would expect around 3.6 to 3.9 LPM.

    I'll do the jug test too ne a bother...I'll do it in a while...

    No one has mentioned about the shower head test...you know when the shower is on full load and you turn the shower head upside down to see how high the water rises out of the head?....I'll do that to actually as I can't remember how high it was but it was very very little....


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    #54
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭John.G


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    236 at the meter & dropped to 230 with the shower on full.

    Resistance on the elements are 13 and 11

    One other point re the different values of resistance, the 11 ohm gives 4.8 KW output and the 13 ohm gives 4.1 KW so "1/2" power probably utilises the 11 ohm resistance and the 4.8 Kw gives 54% output which makes sense.


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    #55
    Damoedge
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Damoedge


    John.G wrote: »
    That sounds spot on, gives a showering temp of around 45/46C.

    I think all this is very conclusive proof that this shower can produce the goods and Triton have just made another sale to my friend.

    I hate saying this....Your lucky is hot enough to have a shower in that's great...but....what is the water pressure like at that setting?


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    #56
    Damoedge
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Damoedge


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    It's a pity the engineer didn't replace Damoedges element. They are loosing what sounds like a lifelong customer by lazy diagnostics

    There not only losing me I would say...my brother couldn't believe it and reckons if he every needs to change he will be sticking with Mira....


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    #57
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,985 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Damoedge wrote:
    I hate saying this....Your lucky is hot enough to have a shower in that's great...but....what is the water pressure like at that setting?


    It was 3.3 litres per minute


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    #58
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭John.G


    Damoedge wrote: »
    I hate saying this....Your lucky is hot enough to have a shower in that's great...but....what is the water pressure like at that setting?

    IF you are using the same shower head then the pressure is completely dependent on the Flowrate.....this again is dependent on the amount of heat being transferred to the water from the heating element. For example if you want a constant showering temperature of 40C from water at say 7C and you have the shower producing 9.0 KW then the Flowrate will be (it has to be) 3.9 LPM, (9.0*860/(40-7)/60). If you are on reduced power, say 4.8 KW then for the same showering temperature of 40C the flowrate will only be 2.1 LPM, (4.8*860/(40-7)/60. Some showerheads have different size holes in them to others and give a nicer spray, thats why some people prefer to use their old showerheads but whichever showerhead you use or even with no showerhead attached..the flowrate will be exactly the same for any given set of conditions.


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    #59
    Damoedge
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Damoedge


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    It was 3.3 litres per minute

    Well lads being a Saturday evening in all I did the jug test on it....so at its highest setting...the knob all the way up to the last at its hottest and for exactly one minute timed....I got....wait for it.....drum roll....and I was shocked at this but it only confirms everything I have said here.....

    A whopping .....1 liter and 900ml....1.9 liters ! ! !

    I was shocked the first time so I did it again and got the same result !

    Turning the Triton supplied shower head upside down at this setting and setting the shower head to the least resistance setting....the water only rises about an inch from the shower head face.

    I take it that 1.9 liters is bad sure I know it is!


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    #60
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,985 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Damoedge wrote:
    I take it that 1.9 liters is bad sure I know it is!


    Sounds like you are operating on just one element. Will you try one more test. Turn it on & get the water to the temperature that you would shower in. Then turn the top dial from two elements to one element. Dial will now be at 12 o clock. Does the temperature of the water drop off?


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    #61
    John.G
    Registered Users Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭John.G


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Sounds like you are operating on just one element. Will you try one more test. Turn it on & get the water to the temperature that you would shower in. Then turn the top dial from two elements to one element. Dial will now be at 12 o clock. Does the temperature of the water drop off?

    If he is operating on one element, and if its the same type heating can as yours then the shower is either running at 4.1 KW or 4.8 KW OR if the elements were concievably wired in series (highly unlikely but we may as well go through the exercise) the output would be 2.2 KW.

    4.1 KW gives a water delta T of 31C, showering temp of say 38C (from cold water at 7C)
    4.8 KW gives a water delta T of 36C, showering temp of say 43C (from cold water at 7C)
    2.2 KW gives a water delta T of 17C, showering temp of say 24C (from cold water at 7C)

    It looks very much as if he is running on one element as we allways suspected.


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