Recommend alternative to Triton T90sr and Mira QT elite showers?

John.G

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Most people testing have a point to prove. They might have the temperature set higher than they would actually shower in. They might measure slightly less than really is there. It could be 1.1 litres per fill instead of 1 litres. Maybe it's 55 seconds instead of 60 seconds. Some might not be as scientific or accurate as we would like.

I use the jug test here as a rough guide

Point taken but anyone who got into a shower which is giving them a nice comfortable shower at full power will jump out of it if it developed a fault and went down to 1/2 power, if you yourself just switched to the first element, then in order to maintain your 45C (from say, 5C) you will have to reduce the flowrate to a measly (4.8*860/(45-5)/60) 1.72 LPM. You will certainly not be too pleased with this.
People are sometimes accepting tepid temperatures with better flowrates on a malfunctioning shower....if one accepts 33C as a very very tepid showering temperature then a shower operating at only 4.8KW will still only give a flowrate of 2.46 LPM. (4.8*860/(33-5)/60)

Sleeper12

John.G wrote:

Point taken but anyone who got into a shower which is giving them a nice comfortable shower at full power will jump out of it if it developed a fault and went down to 1/2 power, if you yourself just switched to the first element, then in order to maintain your 45C (from say, 5C) you will have to reduce the flowrate to a measly (4.8*860/(45-5)/60) 1.72 LPM. You will certainly not be too pleased with this. People are sometimes accepting tepid temperatures with better flowrates on a malfunctioning shower....if one accepts 33C as a very very tepid showering temperature then a shower operating at only 4.8KW will still only give a flowrate of 2.46 LPM.

All I can say is that a 9kw heating can puts out 9kw of energy. I've fitted maybe 1500 of these showers and the heating can resistance reading has been spot on for everyone of them. This includes people who feel that the pressure isn't as good as their old 8.5kw shower. In other words it's just their imagination or a new shower head.

OP is a totally different case. He has something very strange with his heating can or power supply to the house. If the engineers reading was correct it could be as simple as the pull cord switch starting to burn out or the rcbo failing. If it were me I'd get an electrician to check it out. That's cheaper than charging the shower. An electrician for as little as a call out fee can test the whole setup & give a difinite answer.

Damoedge

Sleeper12 wrote: »

OP is a totally different case. He has something very strange with his heating can or power supply to the house. If the engineers reading was correct it could be as simple as the pull cord switch starting to burn out or the rcbo failing. If it were me I'd get an electrician to check it out. That's cheaper than charging the shower. An electrician for as little as a call out fee can test the whole setup & give a difinite answer.

If you read back we did have our electrician out

He was baffled himself as everything in the house is ok..he pointed out the test to us that usually in some house when you flick on the electric kettle or the oven the lights would kinda dim...ours don't do that...never did!....the wiring is fine and is only 20 years old....he actually said you should have stuck with the old shower but I know myself that it was coming near the end of its days.

Bottom line is lads no matter what scenario you try to put on it...it's the shower that's at fault here...I mean if I were to put back on the old shower and did the tests and everything is perfect...what would ye all say then??...also in the attic we have an over hanging infa red lamp right over the tank that kicks in at 1°... But that rarely comes on as the attic is well insulated!

Now getting back to the original topic....which shower should I get to replace this yoke??

John.G

A 9.0 KW T90 SR, as long as Triton agree to do it at no cost to you, its been established I think very comprehensively that your shower has been running at "1/2" power since day one. You have full confidence in your wiring etc and a fully functioning T90 SR I would think is (still) a very good choice. If you explained to Triton the steps you took to establish the poor performance I would think they would be receptive to it...hy shouldnt they, if only to re establish their good name!.

Sleeper12

Damoedge wrote:

If you read back we did have our electrician out

Did he test the element in the shower?

Damoedge

John.G wrote: »

A 9.0 KW T90 SR, as long as Triton agree to do it at no cost to you, its been established I think very comprehensively that your shower has been running at "1/2" power since day one. You have full confidence in your wiring etc and a fully functioning T90 SR I would think is (still) a very good choice. If you explained to Triton the steps you took to establish the poor performance I would think they would be receptive to it...hy shouldnt they, if only to re establish their good name!.

Ha..that's what I asked them but they said no they wouldn't install another shower at no cost to me! They will give me a refund alright which I'll be getting this week...so...it's up to me to buy another shower and get our plumber back out again to install it....I would install it myself but if anything happened I'd be fecked! I can take it down alright no problem....

By the way when we told our plumber a good while ago about this problem shower.. he kinda laughed and said "that's why I don't install Tritons anymore!" He hasn't installed one in years! And yes before ye all ask he installed it correctly...

So is there any other shower on the Irish market bar this one and the Mira elite QT that I could get???

Sleeper12

Damoedge wrote:

So is there any other shower on the Irish market bar this one and the Mira elite QT that I could get???

Triton t900pi

I'd still love to hear what your electrician said when he tested the element?

Damoedge

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Did he test the element in the shower?

I don't think he did....he just tested the voltage supply and ampage in the slower itself and all was ok with it...then he tested the board and sockets and checked outside too

Damoedge

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Triton t900pi

Where can I buy it?

John.G

Damoedge wrote: »

I don't think he did....he just tested the voltage supply and ampage in the slower itself and all was ok with it...then he tested the board and sockets and checked outside too

It should have been pulling around 38 amps then. If it was only running initially on one element then it would be about 20 amps.

OK then, I assume the removed unit will be returned to Triton? Before doing so can you or your electrician friend just test the heating can resistances,
before returning it, they should be 11 ohms and 13 ohms.

Sleeper12

Damoedge wrote:

Where can I buy it?

The best pumped electric shower on the market is the triton t90sr by a country mile. I would replace the faulty t90sr with a fully functioning triton t90sr. That's my advice.

If your plumber supplied & fitted the shower then it's his problem and he would have to replace the shower free of charge. I always point this out to people saying that they can source materials cheaper. If tradesmen supply then they are responsible for the whole job. If you supply then they are only responsible for their own work and not the product.

Any trade counter can order in the triton t900pi. I usually buy mine from the shower centre on the Malahide road. They have a website. They will post one to you.

Damoedge

John.G wrote: »

It should have been pulling around 38 amps then. If it was only running initially on one element then it would be about 20 amps.

OK then, I assume the removed unit will be returned to Triton? Before doing so can you or your electrician friend just test the heating can resistances,
before returning it, they should be 11 ohms and 13 ohms.

Right just tested it there...
11.5
13.2

Damoedge

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If your plumber supplied & fitted the shower then it's his problem and he would have to replace the shower free of charge. I always point this out to people saying that they can source materials cheaper. If tradesmen supply then they are responsible for the whole job. If you supply then they are only responsible for their own work and not the product.

Any trade counter can order in the triton t900pi. I usually buy mine from the shower centre on the Malahide road. They have a website. They will post one to you.

I supplied the shower

John.G

Damoedge wrote: »

Right just tested it there...
11.5
13.2

That gives one element of 4.6 KW and the other of 4.0 KW, total of 8.6 KW, a bit shy of 9.0 KW but I suppose that could be element manufacturing tolerences or multitester error.
If you feel happy to do so would you be willing to test the voltage at the shower terminals with the power on high, pos ii on the dial. and with the temp dial at say 2 oclock with shower switched on?
http://dublinshowerrepair.com/uploads/3/3/0/8/3308713/triton_t90sr_user_manual.pdf

Damoedge

John.G wrote: »

That gives one element of 4.6 KW and the other of 4.0 KW, total of 8.6 KW, a bit shy of 9.0 KW but I suppose that could be element manufacturing tolerences or multitester error.
If you feel happy to do so would you be willing to test the voltage at the shower terminals with the power on high, pos ii on the dial. and with the temp dial at say 2 oclock with shower switched on?
http://dublinshowerrepair.com/uploads/3/3/0/8/3308713/triton_t90sr_user_manual.pdf

I did that also while testing resistance...

Shower off 238
Shower on 224

John.G

Damoedge wrote: »

I did that also while testing resistance...

Shower off 238
Shower on 224

OK Thanks, the only other suggestion I can make is to operate the power selector switch with the cover off.....I presume that if you have it fully to the left and have the locking/commissioning locking screw holes lined up that it is "Off" then there possibly should be two further clicks when turned clockwise to ensure its in the full power position?...I really cant think of anything else.

Damoedge

John.G wrote: »

OK Thanks, the only other suggestion I can make is to operate the power selector switch with the cover off.....I presume that if you have it fully to the left and have the locking/commissioning locking screw holes lined up that it is "Off" then there possibly should be two further clicks when turned clockwise to ensure its in the full power position?...I really cant think of anything else.

I don't get ya on this one.....??

Wearb

Damoedge wrote: »

I did that also while testing resistance...

Shower off 238
Shower on 224

A14V drop on a 3 metre run of 10mm seems excessive to me. Perhaps some electrician would comment here?

John.G

Damoedge wrote: »

I don't get ya on this one.....??

I'm trying to make sure that High power is actually selected you might feel/hear two distinct clicks when going from cold to pos ii ?,

Damoedge

John.G wrote: »

I'm trying to make sure that High power is actually selected you might feel/hear two distinct clicks when going from cold to pos ii ?,

Yes I do with the cover on...and during testing with the cover off it's the same...but..it feels like that knob could go another turn...I didn't try it but I did put a little pressure on it and it felt like it would turn again...like from position ii to position iii...but there is no iii...I didn't turn it in case something snapped....

John.G

Wearb wrote: »

A14V drop on a 3 metre run of 10mm seems excessive to me. Perhaps some electrician would comment here?

I think maybe 0.00158 ohms/meter for 10 MM2 so a 3 meter run should be a total resistance of 3*2*0.00158 = 0.00948 ohms?
the element resistances were 11.5 & 13.2ohms = 6.146 ohms in parallel so the total circuit resistance is 6.146+0.00948 = 6.15548 ohms. the fuse board volts are 238V so current flow is 238V/6.15548 = 38.66 amps and the cable volt drop = 38.66*0.00948 = 0.366 volt? seems very low.

However the voltage should be taken at both the fuse board and at the shower terminals with the shower On before jumping to any conclusions. Damoedge might do this, it will be very interesting.
Even if my calc above is incorrect, I cant imagine any more than 1 or 2 volt drop in this cable

A 14V drop, if true would indicate a very serious problem along the way or at some connection but lets see what the readings are.

Sleeper12

John.G wrote:

A 14V drop, if true would indicate a very serious problem along the way or at some connection but lets see what the readings are.

The resistance reading from the elements suggests to me that the shower is in good working order and the fault is elsewhere

John.G

Damoedge wrote: »

Yes I do with the cover on...and during testing with the cover off it's the same...but..it feels like that knob could go another turn...I didn't try it but I did put a little pressure on it and it felt like it would turn again...like from position ii to position iii...but there is no iii...I didn't turn it in case something snapped....

If you go to page 10 of the link above I sent you, it will clarify it I think, you have to be happy the selector is in the correct position so that the water flow valve will push in both microswitch contacts.

On my shower (mira sport) you have Low Medium and High positions. when you switch from Low to Medium ther is a nice "click" when it finds its position and likewise in going from "Medium" to High"

Wearb

John.G wrote: »

I think maybe 0.00158 ohms/meter for 10 MM2 so a 3 meter run should be a total resistance of 3*2*0.00158 = 0.00948 ohms?
the element resistances were 11.5 & 13.2ohms = 6.146 ohms in parallel so the total circuit resistance is 6.146+0.00948 = 6.15548 ohms. the no load terminal volts are 238V so current flow is 238/6.15548 = 38.66 amps and the cable volt drop = 38.66*0.00948 = 0.36 volt? seems very low.

However the voltage shoild be taken at both the supply cable end and at the shower terminals with the shower On before jumping to any conclusions. Damoedge might do this, it will be very interesting.
Even if my calc above is incorrect, I cant imagine any more than 1 or 2 volt drop in this cable

A 14V drop, if true would indicate a very serious problem along the way or at some connection but lets see what the readings are.

That is producing quite a lot of heat somewhere and as we know that voltage drop will only get worse as the temperature increases resistance.

OP Do you have an IR thermometer that you could point around at the rcbo, isolation switch and random parts of the supply cable (don't hold it too far from the measuring point, or you will be measuring outside target area).

I also wonder if you have a large voltage drop in socket circuits when shower is running. That might indicate a problem with your mains supply and not limited to your shower supply.

Sleeper12

Wearb wrote:

That is producing quite a lot of heat somewhere and as we know that voltage drop will only get worse as the temperature increases resistance.

The old shower worked fine. I'm wondering if the plumber damaged the cable in the wall by drilling a new screw hole. This might explain the electrician testing everywhere and not find a problem

Wearb

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The old shower worked fine. I'm wondering if the plumber damaged the cable in the wall by drilling a new screw hole. This might explain the electrician testing everywhere and not find a problem

That voltage drop in itself isn't producing the results that the op is getting, but that drop could be increasing with time.

And yes, your observation that the old one worked well is worth keeping in mind and tends to rule out my latest line of thought, unless connections were disturbed, or (as you suggest) wire damage etc.

Damoedge

I took the voltage reading at the cables before going into the shower I also took readings around the terminal..they were all the same...I noticed that the voltage fluctuated a bit when the shower was running I'd say about 4/5 volts but when the shower was off it remained very steady at the terminals....the voltage I listed here was the highest fluctuation and I should have stated that when I was typing it...(was in a rush)

Also when taken the resistance that fluctuated a lot too before it would settle...I'm talking like nearly a minute to settle down....if that means anything I don't know...?

Again for the hundred time I'd say..I tested plug sockets nearest to the board and shower and sockets furthest away from the shower...there all reading around 238 volts....a few weeks ago I tested the shower cable going into the board itself and that was normal too.

When I said above I was rushing I was taking it down...well I have taken the shower down now lads...went up the attic turned off the water and she's off the wall now as it's been brought back tomorrow...I'm sick to me teeth with it!

At the end of the day...I don't care what anyone says about this or that or that and this....the way I see it is this way..................

A perfect working shower...the old one....and when I say perfect I mean this...2 elements on...temp knob at 1/2 o clock....which had great water pressure and prefect water temp at that setting to have a lovely shower in! Any higher we would have been scalded!....this shower had specs...9kw in bla bla bla......was replaced with another shower with the same specs...bla bla bla.....with absolutely no changes to wiring or electrics or plumbing! I mean you wouldn't say something if we put in a big dirty halogen flood light out the back of something....and this new shower...NEW ! ...better technology better bla bla bla....and it performs ****e!....it's that simple lads....well to me it is...the fault was with the new shower and that's that! I think the jug test which I was a bit shocked with myself proved that...

Anyways she is off the wall...fing thing was off the wall since day one...lol lol lol lol

Looks like I'll have to get the Mira because my parents don't want to go a day without the shower...feck sake like...lol

Wearb

Damoedge wrote: »

I took the voltage reading at the cables before going into the shower I also took readings around the terminal..they were all the same...I noticed that the voltage fluctuated a bit when the shower was running I'd say about 4/5 volts but when the shower was off it remained very steady at the terminals....the voltage I listed here was the highest fluctuation and I should have stated that when I was typing it...(was in a rush)

Also when taken the resistance that fluctuated a lot too before it would settle...I'm talking like nearly a minute to settle down....if that means anything I don't know...?

Again for the hundred time I'd say..I tested plug sockets nearest to the board and shower and sockets furthest away from the shower...there all reading around 238 volts....a few weeks ago I tested the shower cable going into the board itself and that was normal too.

When I said above I was rushing I was taking it down...well I have taken the shower down now lads...went up the attic turned off the water and she's off the wall now as it's been brought back tomorrow...I'm sick to me teeth with it!

At the end of the day...I don't care what anyone says about this or that or that and this....the way I see it is this way..................

A perfect working shower...the old one....and when I say perfect I mean this...2 elements on...temp knob at 1/2 o clock....which had great water pressure and prefect water temp at that setting to have a lovely shower in! Any higher we would have been scalded!....this shower had specs...9kw in bla bla bla......was replaced with another shower with the same specs...bla bla bla.....with absolutely no changes to wiring or electrics or plumbing! I mean you wouldn't say something if we put in a big dirty halogen flood light out the back of something....and this new shower...NEW ! ...better technology better bla bla bla....and it performs ****e!....it's that simple lads....well to me it is...the fault was with the new shower and that's that! I think the jug test which I was a bit shocked with myself proved that...

Anyways she is off the wall...fing thing was off the wall since day one...lol lol lol lol

Looks like I'll have to get the Mira because my parents don't want to go a day without the shower...feck sake like...lol

We fair play to you for sticking with it for so long - 10 pages on my iPhone.
We have all learned from this thread and it will provide a good diognostic source for future readers.

Sleeper12

Here's my advice based on all the information you gave us. Get a REC in ASAP to test everything properly. The problem could be coming into the house as the triton engineer thought or it could be localised to the pull cord switch or the cable behind the shower. The plumber might have damaged it without knowing. This would explain why it only shows up after the installation. Something is not right and it doesn't seem to be the shower.

I wouldn't use the shower in the meantime. If you do change the shower I strongly suggest getting a REC to replace it as he will test everything correctly and issue you with a certificate. The plumber didn't test it when he installed it and it's unlikely he'll learn how in the meantime.

Sleeper12

Damoedge wrote:

I took the voltage reading at the cables before going into the shower I also took readings around the terminal..they were all the same...I noticed that the voltage fluctuated a bit when the shower was running I'd say about 4/5 volts but when the shower was off it remained very steady at the terminals....the voltage I listed here was the highest fluctuation and I should have stated that when I was typing it...(was in a rush)

You would need to take voltage readings at the meter & compare them to the voltage readings at the shower. Both sets of readings need to be done with the shower on full throttle. The readings won't be the same as each other. It's the difference in the two readings that are important