Recommend alternative to Triton T90sr and Mira QT elite showers?

Sleeper12

John.G wrote:

It looks very much as if he is running on one element as we allways suspected.

And yet the engineer didn't test the element at all. That's a big mistake

John.G

Sleeper12 wrote: »

And yet the engineer didn't test the element at all. That's a big mistake

Its shocking, if you knew someone in Triton you might mention it to him even unofficially and see his reaction....depending on what he suggests Triton might just repair/replace the shower and by doing so retain their customer and maybe get a heap more, I suppose we really cant blame the company for one seemingly incompetent person.

Sleeper12

John.G wrote:

Its shocking, if you knew someone in Triton you might mention it to him even unofficially and see his reaction....depending on what he suggests Triton might just repair/replace the shower and by doing so retain their customer and maybe get a heap more, I suppose we really cant blame the company for one seemingly incompetent person.

I'm not the most popular person with Triton or Mira.

Damoedge

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Sounds like you are operating on just one element. Will you try one more test. Turn it on & get the water to the temperature that you would shower in. Then turn the top dial from two elements to one element. Dial will now be at 12 o clock. Does the temperature of the water drop off?

As said before that is what we have to shower in at that setting....being....all the way to the last and it's not a very hot shower...it's just barely warm enough to shower in.....I know from doing a lot of research on this that I should only have to turn the temp knob to 2/3 o clock and that could be suffice....in fact even the Triton engineer did this first thing he put it at 2 o clock and said yes there's a problem here......

Sleeper12

Damoedge wrote:

As said before that is what we have to shower in at that setting....being....all the way to the last and it's not a very hot shower...it's just barely warm enough to shower in.....I know from doing a lot of research on this that I should only have to turn the temp knob to 2/3 o clock and that could be suffice....in fact even the Triton engineer did this first thing he put it at 2 o clock and said yes there's a problem here......

That doesn't tell us if both elements are working or not.

If you set the bottom dial all the way as hot as it goes then turn the top dial to 12 o clock. If the water temperature stays the same then only one element is working & its a simple fix

John.G

Sleeper12 wrote: »

That doesn't tell us if both elements are working or not.

If you set the bottom dial all the way as hot as it goes then turn the top dial to 12 o clock. If the water temperature stays the same then only one element is working & its a simple fix

It seems strange that a element has "gone" on a brand new shower, could there be a cable not attached or removed I wonder.

Damoedge

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Sounds like you are operating on just one element. Will you try one more test. Turn it on & get the water to the temperature that you would shower in. Then turn the top dial from two elements to one element. Dial will now be at 12 o clock. Does the temperature of the water drop off?

I just did that test and yes the water temp did drop off to like tepid water...so yes the 2 elements are working...I did notice doing this that there was absolutely no change in water pressure.

Sleeper12

John.G wrote:

It seems strange that a element has "gone" on a brand new shower, could there be a cable not attached or removed I wonder.

I've fitted showers from all manifactures with parts not working. Doesn't happen often. I'd usually replace the part myself there and then rather than try asking for payment & explaining that the shower doesn't work & needs to be repaired under the warranty. I have had dozens of mira elite qt showers with faulty motors straight out of the box. I always carry two spare elites as they are so bad. I've had solenoids not opening or not closing, faulty TCOs. I once had a shower straight out of the box with a faulty Tco & solenoid. Another shower I tried several solenoids. I had to take the whole shower apart before I found a screw stuck in the inlet of the heating can. The screw wouldn't let any water through.

Damoedge

John.G wrote: »

Its shocking, if you knew someone in Triton you might mention it to him even unofficially and see his reaction....depending on what he suggests Triton might just repair/replace the shower and by doing so retain their customer and maybe get a heap more, I suppose we really cant blame the company for one seemingly incompetent person.

I was under the impression that when their engineer was calling out to fix it that if he could not fix it there and then it would have been replaced there and then...there words were ... "sure the engineer has loads of showers in the back of the van"...that's why we were so shocked that he skipped it so quickly out of here....the fact that he knew that a mechanical engineer was standing in front of him (me) maybe startled him a bit and he was not happy when I asked to take a photo of his multimeter reading..he wouldn't let me.

Sleeper12

Damoedge wrote:

I just did that test and yes the water temp did drop off to like tepid water...so yes the 2 elements are working...I did notice doing this that there was absolutely no change in water pressure.

I wouldn't expect a change in pressure. A change in the temperature confirmed that both elements are working.

For once here on boards.ie I'm stumped. I have never come across this with a shower before.

I don't suppose you are in Dublin?

Sleeper12

Damoedge wrote:

I was under the impression that when their engineer was calling out to fix it that if he could not fix it there and then it would have been replaced there and then...there words were ... "sure the engineer has loads of showers in the back of the van"...that's why we were so shocked that he skipped it so quickly out of here....the fact that he knew that a mechanical engineer was standing in front of him (me) maybe startled him a bit and he was not happy when I asked to take a photo of his multimeter reading..he wouldn't let me.

He didn't change the shower because he was certain in his own mind that it was your ESB supply. I'd have changed the element out of pig iron if I were him

Damoedge

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I wouldn't expect a change in pressure. A change in the temperature confirmed that both elements are working.

For once here on boards.ie I'm stumped. I have never come across this with a shower before.

I don't suppose you are in Dublin?

No I'm not in Dublin at all...far from it....

My thoughts as an engineer are....Maybe the flange angle of the pump is off a little when it was made...Maybe there is even cavities on the flange who knows...Maybe bad quality elements not working to there rating...Maybe the brushless motor has something to do with it...let's face it that's new technology to electric showers....Maybe bad molding of the inner pipe work as the diameter could be reduced somewhere but that's all internal and closed in...Maybe a combination of some of the above...who knows like.......I know one thing! This shower was Nooooo ways tested at all before it was boxed !

Sleeper12

Damoedge wrote:

My thoughts as an engineer are....Maybe the flange angle of the pump is off a little when it was made...Maybe there is even cavities on the flange who knows...Maybe bad quality elements not working to there rating...Maybe the brushless motor has something to do with it...let's face it that's new technology to electric showers....Maybe bad molding of the inner pipe work as the diameter could be reduced somewhere but that's all internal and closed in...Maybe a combination of some of the above...who knows like.......I know one thing! This shower was Nooooo ways tested at all before it was boxed !

The pump is working perfectly. Turn the bottom dial all the way to cold and you will have good pressure. Cold water but good pressure. Solenoid opens & closes so that's not a problem. Water gets worm so Tco is working. Flow control valve works as you can adjust the flow of cold water. It can only be the element. I would have loved to have a look at it for you. I've never come across this before. I'll be lying awake thinking about this. Shame you aren't in Dublin.

Damoedge

Sleeper12 wrote: »

He didn't change the shower because he was certain in his own mind that it was your ESB supply. I'd have changed the element out of pig iron if I were him

Personally so would I just to solve the problem!

But I think I now know why he said not to tell the ESB that a Triton engineer was out and recommended to put a monitor on the supply....I think he said this because he probably has no qualifications as an electrician! It would have got messy for Triton I guess if they had to deal with the ESB telling them there's nothing wrong with supply and when last was their "engineers" multimeter calibrated ! There is a thing called a calibration cert for everything that gets calibrated! But I'm sure ye guys know this already...hell ESB cold have asked Triton for that guys electric certs.........

Damoedge

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The pump is working perfectly. Turn the bottom dial all the way to cold and you will have good pressure. Cold water but good pressure. Solenoid opens & closes so that's not a problem. Water gets worm so Tco is working. Flow control valve works as you can adjust the flow of cold water. It can only be the element. I would have loved to have a look at it for you. I've never come across this before. I'll be lying awake thinking about this. Shame you aren't in Dublin.

Lol lol...I'm sure you will be well asleep dreaming of other nice things sleeper other than my auld shower....lol lol...

Corca Baiscinn

An earler part of this thread advised OP to go for a shower with water from the hot tank rather than a pumped electric shower. Recently I heard someone say they did exactly that, (swapped pumped shower for one using water already heated) and that the difference in water pressure was phenomenal. OP asked if you would have to wait for the water to heat and the answer was of course yes but this problem could be overcome with a timer.

I have a different issue re using water from the hot tank. Many years ago when we did this the person using the shower would freeze or be scalded if someone in the kitchen turned on a tap and there would be a yell from upstairs! That was the main reason we installed an electric shower. It's ancient, but while the youngsters wouldn't agree, we oldsters think its working fine; great in summer - less so in winter. But if we were to switch to a power shower whenever this one gives up the ghost, does modern technology have a fix for the kitchen tap problem?

Btw I remove the shower- head from time to time and soak it in vinegar or lemon juice to remove any limescale

Sleeper12

Corca Baiscinn wrote:

I have a different issue re using water from the hot tank. Many years ago when we did this the person using the shower would freeze or be scalded if someone in the kitchen turned on a tap and there would be a yell from upstairs! That was the main reason we installed an electric shower. It's ancient, but while the youngsters wouldn't agree, we oldsters think its working fine; great in summer - less so in winter. But if we were to switch to a power shower whenever this one gives up the ghost, does modern technology have a fix for the kitchen tap problem?

Your old shower wasn't pipped correctly. It also didn't have a thermostatic cartridge. A modern power shower piped correctly can handle someone running the kitchen tap.

An electric shower is a compromise. Instant hot water at a lowish pressure. 3 to 4.5 litres per minute. A power shower pumps out at least 10 litres of water per minute. Mine is over 20 litres of water per minute. The more water the higher the cost of heating enough water for the shower.

John.G

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I wouldn't expect a change in pressure. A change in the temperature confirmed that both elements are working.

For once here on boards.ie I'm stumped. I have never come across this with a shower before.

I don't suppose you are in Dublin?[/QUOT

If both elements are working then they must be working separately, ie when on low setting one element is energised which is perfectly correct and a flowrate of 1.9 LPM gives a water temperature of 43C or whatever. When switched to the High setting then the second element is energised via its microswsitch and both elements are then energised, well if they are then the temperature rise with a flowrate of 1.9 LPM would be 68C, final temperature 75C...no way, so the only way that the switching is operating is the first element is switched on at low setting and the second element is switched on at the high setting AND the first element is switched off OR as I said above but highly unlikely both elements are running in series.

Corca Baiscinn

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Your old shower wasn't pipped correctly. It also didn't have a thermostatic cartridge. A modern power shower piped correctly can handle someone running the kitchen tap.

An electric shower is a compromise. Instant hot water at a lowish pressure. 3 to 4.5 litres per minute. A power shower pumps out at least 10 litres of water per minute. Mine is over 20 litres of water per minute. The more water the higher the cost of heating enough water for the shower.

Thanks for that Sleeper and does whether it's 10 or 20 lpm depend on quality or shower purchased and isn't related to water pressure? Re cost, I take it that would be a factor mainly in summer as in winter you'd have hot water as a by-product of having the heating on?

Damoedge

John.G wrote: »

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I wouldn't expect a change in pressure. A change in the temperature confirmed that both elements are working.

For once here on boards.ie I'm stumped. I have never come across this with a shower before.

I don't suppose you are in Dublin?[/QUOT

If both elements are working then they must be working separately, ie when on low setting one element is energised which is perfectly correct and a flowrate of 1.9 LPM gives a water temperature of 43C or whatever. When switched to the High setting then the second element is energised via its microswsitch and both elements are then energised, well if they are then the temperature rise with a flowrate of 1.9 LPM would be 68C, final temperature 75C...no way, so the only way that the switching is operating is the first element is switched on at low setting and the second element is switched on at the high setting AND the first element is switched off OR as I said above but highly unlikely both elements are running in series.

It's a possibility....as sure as it's possible for an elephant to burst through the door of the room that your in right now...highly unlikely...but....it's still a possibility

Sleeper12

You have three element settings. Blue is no element. One red (12 o clock) is the bigger element. Two reds is both elements. The switching mechanism doesn't allow for the smaller element to run on its own.

Assuming that it is the shower at fault I was thinking that one element had failed. This isn't the case so the only thing I can come up with is that it is a faulty heating can with both elements running at half capacity. If never heard of such a thing before. Maybe the engineer was correct. I'm truly stumped and I'll never be any wiser on it unless I was there to test it myself.

Sleeper12

Corca Baiscinn wrote:

Thanks for that Sleeper and does whether it's 10 or 20 lpm depend on quality or shower purchased and isn't related to water pressure? Re cost, I take it that would be a factor mainly in summer as in winter you'd have hot water as a by-product of having the heating on?

The definition of a power shower is a shower putting out at least 10 litres per minute. 9.9 litres per minute isn't a power shower.

Most entry level power showers put out 14 litres of water per minute. Triton as2000xt & the mira vigour thermostatic fall into the entry level. Aqualisa aquastream power shower costs about 2.5 times more than the mira or triton & puts out 18 litres. It's a nice shower but if way over priced. It's only worth half what they charge for it in my opinion. The best type of power shower is a dedicated pump in the hot press, a good mixer valve & a decent shower head. There's nothing wrong with the entry level showers. They have a lifespan of around 10 years

John.G

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You have three element settings. Blue is no element. One red (12 o clock) is the bigger element. Two reds is both elements. The switching mechanism doesn't allow for the smaller element to run on its own.

Assuming that it is the shower at fault I was thinking that one element had failed. This isn't the case so the only thing I can come up with is that it is a faulty heating can with both elements running at half capacity. If never heard of such a thing before. Maybe the engineer was correct. I'm truly stumped and I'll never be any wiser on it unless I was there to test it myself.

In what way do you think that the engineer may have been correct? Another poster Andrew1977 in another thread measured his flowrate at 2.5 LPM, there certainly seems to be some common fault at least on some of these showers.

Just for general shower info, my own 2007 installed 9.0 KW Mira Sport has (from my notes) the same resistance elements as the TR90, 11.0 & 13.0 ohms.

Sleeper12

John.G wrote:

In what way do you think that the engineer may have been correct? Another poster Andrew1977 in another thread measured his flowrate at 2.5 LPM, there certainly seems to be some common fault at least on some of these showers.

I've no idea how the engineer might be right. All I know is that I've never seen an element to fail in such a way.

Both elements work. We know this because warm water turned lukewarm when switched to one element. The large element can't be turned off its always on. So that leaves two elements in a sealed heating can both working but on half power. It makes as much sense to me as the possibility that there is an electric issue in the house. Neither op makes much sense to me.

The poster getting 2.5 per minute was during the cold snap. We don't know what the water temperature was in the attic or how hot it was coming out of the shower. I wasn't surprised at this flow rate for the winter time.


The only thing different from this shower to the previous two models is the motor. Op has good pressure on cold so we know that the pump/Motor isn't the issue. Triton have been using this element in the triton t90xr and triton t90z since 2010.

I'm genuinely stumped.

Damoedge

John.G wrote: »

In what way do you think that the engineer may have been correct? Another poster Andrew1977 in another thread measured his flowrate at 2.5 LPM, there certainly seems to be some common fault at least on some of these showers.

And that's only the ones that bother to post on here....how many more are there just willing to accept "it's not as good as the old one but it will do" I would imagine loads !

John.G

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I've no idea how the engineer might be right. All I know is that I've never seen an element to fail in such a way.

Both elements work. We know this because warm water turned lukewarm when switched to one element. The large element can't be turned off its always on. So that leaves two elements in a sealed heating can both working but on half power. It makes as much sense to me as the possibility that there is an electric issue in the house. Neither op makes much sense to me.

The poster getting 2.5 per minute was during the cold snap. We don't know what the water temperature was in the attic or how hot it was coming out of the shower. I wasn't surprised at this flow rate for the winter time.


The only thing different from this shower to the previous two models is the motor. Op has good pressure on cold so we know that the pump/Motor isn't the issue. Triton have been using this element in the triton t90xr and triton t90z since 2010.

I'm genuinely stumped.

Thanks, very strange all right.

Re the 2.5 LPM, the temp rise at this flowrate, assuming his shower was outputting 9.0 KW = (9.0*860/2.5/60) = 51.6C, so even if the attic tank water was at 0C then the showering temp should have been 52C, which is near TCO tripping point?.
If we take the only? other real possibilities.... 1. that the power switch was on its first setting with the 11 ohm/4.8KW element in use only, the showering temperature then should have been a minimum of 28C, but as the attic probably was not lower than 5C, then the showering temp should be 33C.
2. that the switch was on the full power setting but the 13 ohm/4.1KW element wasn't working for whatever reason, then the showering temperature should have remained the same.
3. that the switch again is on the full power setting but the 11 ohm/4.8KW element isnt working for whatever reason but that the 13 ohm/4.1KW is working, then the showering temperature should have been 24C/29C.
4.that both elements are running at 1/2 power each, showering temperature in this case should be 26C/31C.

I think the above shows that there was/is a problem somewhat like the other one?

Another "outlandish" thought I had is re the TCO. I know these operate in a snap action fashion with a big temperature hysteresis necessary to reset them, I listen to my own operating about 10 secs after I switch off my shower each day. I suppose that there is no possibility that a faulty one of these might act in a "flip/flop" action resulting in a 1/2 power situation.?? I think they normally fail open circuit.

Sleeper12

Patww79 wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Damoedge wrote:

And that's only the ones that bother to post on here....how many more are there just willing to accept "it's not as good as the old one but it will do" I would imagine loads !

2.5 lpm is ok for a cold winter day. On the information he provided his shower seems to be working ok. It hit 15C yesterday when we tested ours. I was on 3.3 lpm & this in normal.

Your issue is totally different to anyother poster on any other thread. You got less than 2 lpm yesterday.

Sleeper12

John.G wrote:

Re the 2.5 LPM, the temp rise at this flowrate, assuming his shower was outputting 9.0 KW = (9.0*860/2.5/60) = 51.6C, so even if the attic tank water was at 0C then the showering temp should have been 52C, which is near TCO tripping point?. If we take the only? other real possibilities.... 1. that the power switch was on its first setting with the 11 ohm/4.8KW element in use only, the showering temperature then should have been a minimum of 28C, but as the attic probably was not lower than 5C, then the showering temp should be 33C. 2. that the switch was on the full power setting but the 13 ohm/4.1KW element wasn't working for whatever reason, then the showering temperature should have remained the same. 3. that the switch again is on the full power setting but the 11 ohm/4.8KW element isnt working for whatever reason but that the 13 ohm/4.1KW is working, then the showering temperature should have been 24C/29C. 4.that both elements are running at 1/2 power each, showering temperature in this case should be 26C/31C.

Most people testing have a point to prove. They might have the temperature set higher than they would actually shower in. They might measure slightly less than really is there. It could be 1.1 litres per fill instead of 1 litres. Maybe it's 55 seconds instead of 60 seconds. Some might not be as scientific or accurate as we would like.

I use the jug test here as a rough guide

John.G

Sleeper12 wrote: »

2.5 lpm is ok for a cold winter day. On the information he provided his shower seems to be working ok. It hit 15C yesterday when we tested ours. I was on 3.3 lpm & this in normal.

Your issue is totally different to anyother poster on any other thread. You got less than 2 lpm yesterday.

If one accepts that 40C would be a very reasonable MINIMUM showering temperature then a 9.0 KW shower operating at its 9.0 KW which will give a flowrate of (9.0*860/(40-0)/60) = 3.23 LPM. now that's assuming that the attic tank water is at 0C, if one assumes that the attic tank is at a far more realistic temperature of 5C even in coldest spell imaginable, then the flowrate will be
(9.0*860/(40-5)/60) = 3.69 LPM

My own 9.0 KW shower is mains supplied which in cold weather will be 3C to 5C lower than the attic tank has never evenly remotely gone as low as 3.0 LPM.

Sleeper12

John.G wrote:

My own 9.0 KW shower is mains supplied which in cold weather will be 3C to 5C lower than the attic tank has never evenly remotely gone as low as 3.0 LPM.

Yet it was 15 c yesterday and my perfectly working 9kw shower only put out 3.3 litres per minute. 4 or 5 meters run of 10mm cable

The 2.5 lpm could easily be 2.8 or more on a scientific test. He could have had a 15 meter run of 6mm cable. The jug test can only be used for a rough guide. In reality he could have as good or better performance as me if he had a short cable run with the correct size cable. His answer wasn't too far from what I'd expect