All Ireland Senior Football Championship 2018 thread - Mod warning post #3147

charlie14

dobman88 wrote: »

Yeah they've hardly been tested but neither have Kerry, always a cracking game and I'm sure they'll up it in front of a home crowd. I'll head up alright, it's only 90 minutes from me now so no excuse not to. Won't be hanging around the town anyway cos I'll be driving so in and out jobby

True enough, Kerry haven`t really been tested in Munster, but Clifford, O`Donoghue and especially Geaney are lads for the big occasion even if Monaghan at home in Clones is a cauldron.
Their backline are not known for welcoming opposing forwards in a genteel fashion either.
Still think Kerry will have way to much for them though. Tie up McManus, (not easy, the man is class), but if you do you are home and hosed.

dobman88

charlie14 wrote: »

True enough, Kerry haven`t really been tested in Munster, but Clifford, O`Donoghue and especially Geaney are lads for the big occasion even if Monaghan at home in Clones is a cauldron.
Their backline are not known for welcoming opposing forwards in a genteel fashion either.
Still think Kerry will have way to much for them though. Tie up McManus, (not easy, the man is class), but if you do you are home and hosed.

We don't have a back capable of it at the moment imo.

charlie14

Bonniedog wrote: »

What about the sophisticated night spots of the Busted Sofa and the Paragon? Best place to head for before a match in Clones is Newtown across the border, and helps traffic wise too.

Nothing against Monaghan people, but the place is a dump. The provincial ground should have been Cavan`s Breffni Park, but with the troubles it seems the idea was to have the provincial ground as close to the border as possible.
In fairness though even if the town is a dump and unless you know it well, parking a nightmare, the ground and its facilities are good.
I don`t know what the pitch is like after this recent weather, but I was on it a few weeks back and it was in excellent shape. Like a carpet.

charlie14

dobman88 wrote: »

We don't have a back capable of it at the moment imo.

Their forward line is a bit of a one man show, so ye can afford to put two on him.







Second thoughts, use three.
Not casting aspersions on your backs, but on his day he takes a hell of a lot of watching.

charlie14

Bonniedog wrote: »

The way the 8s are panning out is surely an argument for returning to straight knockout?

If, as think will be the outcome, that Dublin, Donegal, Galway and Kerry qualify for the semis it makes a pretty conclusive case.

I`m from Donegal and unfortunately I don`t see it panning out that way.


I can see the logic behind the Super 8`s, even if I`m not convinced it was logic that brought them about!
There was a backdoor for everyone up to the Q/F stage, but if you were a provincial winner and lose at that stage you were gone. This way they have another chance.

Bonniedog

It's a whole new scenario so we don't know.

I reckon that Kildare caught Mayo on a day they were stretched and beset with injuries. A team that is beaten by Carlow and loses all its league games is not going to win the All Ireland or beat Kerry and Galway, or probably Monaghan. They might of course be running into vein of form, and much will depend on who wins the Galway/Kerry game as loser will face a difficult task.

No-one has laid a glove on Dublin or Donegal so far and only absence of McBrearty weakens the case that they will take one of two top spots in Group b.

Fr Tod Umptious

Bonniedog wrote: »

The way the 8s are panning out is surely an argument for returning to straight knockout?

If, as think will be the outcome, that Dublin, Donegal, Galway and Kerry qualify for the semis it makes a pretty conclusive case.

I'd disagree with that analysis.

I don't think there is too much between Donegal, Tyrone and Roscommon and I also think that if Galway can beat Kerry (and that's a big if) then this young and inexperienced starting Kerry 15 could have a tough outing in Monaghan.

Always_Running

Bonniedog wrote: »

It's a whole new scenario so we don't know.

I reckon that Kildare caught Mayo on a day they were stretched and beset with injuries. A team that is beaten by Carlow and loses all its league games is not going to win the All Ireland or beat Kerry and Galway, or probably Monaghan. They might of course be running into vein of form, and much will depend on who wins the Galway/Kerry game as loser will face a difficult task.

No-one has laid a glove on Dublin or Donegal so far and only absence of McBrearty weakens the case that they will take one of two top spots in Group b.

You said a few weeks ago there wasn't one in the qualifiers that would put a glove on Mayo and you thought the back door was their best route.


In reality there was plenty of teams that had laid a glove on Mayo in the last few years and would again this summer and credit where credit is due to Kildare they built up a siege mentality and did what a lot of teams couldn't do and got over the line against them. Their biggest problem now is the amount of games they have already played and no break until round 3. They aren't conditioned or seasoned like Tyrone or Mayo would have been so while they should do ok against Monaghan on Sunday they will likely struggle v well rested sides in Galway and Kerry.


The second point did you think any side in Leinster would lay a glove on Dublin? two Div 4 sides and one Div 3 side is what they played while Donegal avoided two Super 8 teams Monaghan and Tyrone in Ulster this summer.

Consey

charlie14 wrote: »

Nothing against Monaghan people, but the place is a dump. The provincial ground should have been Cavan`s Breffni Park, but with the troubles it seems the idea was to have the provincial ground as close to the border as possible.
In fairness though even if the town is a dump and unless you know it well, parking a nightmare, the ground and its facilities are good.
I don`t know what the pitch is like after this recent weather, but I was on it a few weeks back and it was in excellent shape. Like a carpet.

Ulster Finals were played in Clones because 1. Clones was a major railway junction when most people travelled to big matches by train and 2. The natural 'bowl' effect of the pitch meant it had a larger capacity than anywhere else.

The town itself suffered badly after the railways closed and due to its proximity to the troubles and its proximity to the border only one mile away (even closer to the ground itself).

The Butcher Boy (book and movie) was set in Clones, and some say the movie production team made the town look better than it does now (it was set in the 60s).

Traffic on match days can be bad, as it can in any small town where you put on an event with 30,000+ at it but many will tell you that Clones has an atmosphere like no other on big match days, narrow streets, town taken over by the match etc.

seligehgit

charlie14 wrote: »

Their forward line is a bit of a one man show, so ye can afford to put two on him.

Second thoughts, use three.
Not casting aspersions on your backs, but on his day he takes a hell of a lot of watching.

That's a bit harsh,without doubt reducing Conor McManus's influence goes a long way towards beating Monaghan but Conor McCarthy and Jack McCarron are players worthy of respect.

As has been oft remarked the initial round of super 8 games will be crucial as it can set up you up to have a good cut at making the semi finals or play you out of contention.

The Galway game will go a long way towards answering the question as to how much Kerry have or haven't improved defensively.Lose that game and a trip to Clones looks a lot more daunting.

Ultimately it is hard to know how much their exertions in qualifiers will affect Monaghan against a fresher,youthful Kerry team.

Charles Babbage

Consey wrote: »

Ulster Finals were played in Clones because 1. Clones was a major railway junction when most people travelled to big matches by train and 2. The natural 'bowl' effect of the pitch meant it had a larger capacity than anywhere else.

The town itself suffered badly after the railways closed and due to its proximity to the troubles and its proximity to the border only one mile away (even closer to the ground itself).

The Butcher Boy (book and movie) was set in Clones, and some say the movie production team made the town look better than it does now (it was set in the 60s).

Traffic on match days can be bad, as it can in any small town where you put on an event with 30,000+ at it but many will tell you that Clones has an atmosphere like no other on big match days, narrow streets, town taken over by the match etc.

Cavan is not at all central in Ulster, many people travelling to Cavan, whether by train 60 years ago or by car today, would have to pass through Clones in any case.

Clones welcome games, you can't say that in Cavan.

threeball

Always_Running wrote: »

You said a few weeks ago there wasn't one in the qualifiers that would put a glove on Mayo and you thought the back door was their best route.


In reality there was plenty of teams that had laid a glove on Mayo in the last few years and would again this summer and credit where credit is due to Kildare they built up a siege mentality and did what a lot of teams couldn't do and got over the line against them. Their biggest problem now is the amount of games they have already played and no break until round 3. They aren't conditioned or seasoned like Tyrone or Mayo would have been so while they should do ok against Monaghan on Sunday they will likely struggle v well rested sides in Galway and Kerry.


The second point did you think any side in Leinster would lay a glove on Dublin? two Div 4 sides and one Div 3 side is what they played while Donegal avoided two Super 8 teams Monaghan and Tyrone in Ulster this summer.

It's not the lack of rest that will do kildare in. The reality is they are not as good as the other division one teams. Yes they put in a performance against mayo. But mayo were sliding downhill and the injuries weakened their hand significantly. I can't see them beating Kerry or Galway. They might have a chance against Monaghan depending on Monaghans attitude.

elefant

threeball wrote: »

It's not the lack of rest that will do kildare in. The reality is they are not as good as the other division one teams. Yes they put in a performance against mayo. But mayo were sliding downhill and the injuries weakened their hand significantly. I can't see them beating Kerry or Galway. They might have a chance against Monaghan depending on Monaghans attitude.

If anything, the games Kildare have played are their only advantage over the other teams in their group!

charlie14

seligehgit wrote: »

That's a bit harsh,without doubt reducing Conor McManus's influence goes a long way towards beating Monaghan but Conor McCarthy and Jack McCarron are players worthy of respect.

As has been oft remarked the initial round of super 8 games will be crucial as it can set up you up to have a good cut at making the semi finals or play you out of contention.

The Galway game will go a long way towards answering the question as to how much Kerry have or haven't improved defensively.Lose that game and a trip to Clones looks a lot more daunting.

Ultimately it is hard to know how much their exertions in qualifiers will affect Monaghan against a fresher,youthful Kerry team.

A bit harsh perhaps but while Jack McCarron especially has looked the real deal during the league he has yet to deliver at championship level. Admittedly I haven`t seen much of Monaghan this year so far in the championship, but I saw the team that beat them in Ulster, Fermanagh, and this whole defensive shield they played with was nothing but a myth based on them beating Monaghan.
From what I saw of them their only tactic defensively was to attempt to keep the marquee forward quite and create a bit of panic in the opposition.
They tried it with Donegal`s McBrearty but it didn`t work as others stepped up, but where I would fear for Monaghan is that when they did it to McManus it worked and neither McCarthy or McCarron stepped up.
That said, Monaghan in Clones is one tough nut to try and crack. I would not be that worried as to what the backdoor journey took out of them, more that the pace and movement of Kerry will be way above anything they have played to date coming through the backdoor.



Hopefully the Galway Kerry game will show us how goodor not Kerry`s defense is, but it will depend on which Galway team shows up. The one in the first half of the Connacht final or the one in the second half.
Even then we may still not be any the wiser. Galway push upon Roscommon second half and physically lorded midfield. That Kerry midfield will be a different proposition.

charlie14

Bonniedog wrote: »

It's a whole new scenario so we don't know.

I reckon that Kildare caught Mayo on a day they were stretched and beset with injuries. A team that is beaten by Carlow and loses all its league games is not going to win the All Ireland or beat Kerry and Galway, or probably Monaghan. They might of course be running into vein of form, and much will depend on who wins the Galway/Kerry game as loser will face a difficult task.

No-one has laid a glove on Dublin or Donegal so far and only absence of McBrearty weakens the case that they will take one of two top spots in Group b.

Although Kildare were relegated, same as Donegal, they were unlucky in a few of those league games. Losing to Donegal at home when down to 14 for all that game being one.
I cannot see them winning an All Ireland, but the Mayo game put fight in their bellies and they took care of Fermanagh with ease.
As I said, I cannot see them winning outright, but I can see them making life difficult for all teams in their group.


I cannot see Dublin not qualifying for the semi`s and while with McBrearty I would have given Donegal a fighting chance, without him I`m not that confident. True nobody has laid a hand on them in Ulster, but in all honesty being at all those games, the opposition was poor.
No criticism of Donegal, you can only beat what is in front of you and from the shambles we have been for the last few year, this year is a massive improvement. A much stronger panel and playing nice football where Michael Murphy looks to be back enjoying his football, but the opposition is now a serious step up and i would not be that confident of making a semi.
I wouldn`t be heartbroken if we didn`t. Happy with the year tbh.

cj maxx

charlie14 wrote: »

Nothing against Monaghan people, but the place is a dump. The provincial ground should have been Cavan`s Breffni Park, but with the troubles it seems the idea was to have the provincial ground as close to the border as possible.
In fairness though even if the town is a dump and unless you know it well, parking a nightmare, the ground and its facilities are good.
I don`t know what the pitch is like after this recent weather, but I was on it a few weeks back and it was in excellent shape. Like a carpet.

Getting out of Breffni is no easy task either. Another reason for choosing Clones is its pretty central in Ulster , but still in the South , which was vital in the past. I have also read and heard how the atmosphere on UF day is like very few other grounds and its now synonymous with the Ulster final

manofwisdom

threeball wrote: »

It's not the lack of rest that will do kildare in. The reality is they are not as good as the other division one teams. Yes they put in a performance against mayo. But mayo were sliding downhill and the injuries weakened their hand significantly. I can't see them beating Kerry or Galway. They might have a chance against Monaghan depending on Monaghans attitude.

Kildare with momentum are well capable of winning two of their 3 games in that group but i think the schedule will be the killer for them. Remember Mayo only lost to Galway in injury time with 14 men and Monaghan were beaten at home to Mayo this year. The main injuries Mayo had v Kildare was Parsons and S O Shea and two of the best players for Mayo in that game v Kildare was their midfield pairing of A O Shea and D O Connor.


Kildare scored 21 times against a very experienced back line and held their main scoring forwards C O Connor,A O Moran to a mere 0-2 from play. The narrative should be about the outstanding team performance by Kildare on the night.

elefant wrote: »

If anything, the games Kildare have played are their only advantage over the other teams in their group!

By round 2 it will be Kildares 5th match in 5 weeks and most of the games played in this heatwave and v Galway who will have played only their 2nd game in 6 weeks. How is that advantage? If Kildare had 2 or 3 break before before the Galway game i would fancy Kildare to win that game in Newbridge but in that scenario i wouldn't be one bit surprised if a fresh Galway give them a trimming.

mystic86

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0711/977950-six-day-turnaround/

I assume that if Dublin are out on Saturday 4th then their semi final will be on the Saturday 11th, and for Kerry they would get the Sunday slots. Or vice versa, Dublin get the Sunday slots and Kerry get the Saturday slots.

Considering that the last round of Super 8 games are not double headers in Croker, I don't see any reason why they couldn't schedule the Donegal v Tyrone game for the same day as the Kerry v Kildare game, and the Galway v Monaghan game as the Dublin game.

Essentially what I'm saying is that I don't think that the author of that article is correct...?

elefant

manofwisdom wrote: »

By round 2 it will be Kildares 5th match in 5 weeks and most of the games played in this heatwave and v Galway who will have played only their 2nd game in 6 weeks. How is that advantage? If Kildare had 2 or 3 break before before the Galway game i would fancy Kildare to win that game in Newbridge but in that scenario i wouldn't be one bit surprised if a fresh Galway give them a trimming.

Where Kildare might have any advantage is solely down to momentum gained from those games. They're inferior to Galway in every other respect.

Bonniedog

mystic86 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0711/977950-six-day-turnaround/

I assume that if Dublin are out on Saturday 4th then their semi final will be on the Saturday 11th, and for Kerry they would get the Sunday slots. Or vice versa, Dublin get the Sunday slots and Kerry get the Saturday slots.

Considering that the last round of Super 8 games are not double headers in Croker, I don't see any reason why they couldn't schedule the Donegal v Tyrone game for the same day as the Kerry v Kildare game, and the Galway v Monaghan game as the Dublin game.

Essentially what I'm saying is that I don't think that the author of that article is correct...?

I would imagine that the last series of games - at the very least within the two groups - would have to be played at the same time on the same day? Otherwise there is always the albeit slim possibility that teams might plan "strategically"! Which is why all final round league games are same time.

blowitupref

charlie14 wrote: »

Hopefully the Galway Kerry game will show us how goodor not Kerry`s defense is, but it will depend on which Galway team shows up. The one in the first half of the Connacht final or the one in the second half.
Even then we may still not be any the wiser. Galway push upon Roscommon second half and physically lorded midfield. That Kerry midfield will be a different proposition.

The main improvement for Galway 1st half to 2nd half was their shooting. 8 wides in the 1st half to just 2 in the 2nd half and matter of fact it took 20 mins of the 2nd half before they kicked a wide. Roscommon on the other hand shot selection got worse as the game went on and each wide drained the confidence out of them yet the game was still to be won in injury time.


Kerry aren't going to be as poor on their shot selection.
The midfield battle will probably be the deciding factor in this game more so than than the Connacht final. Conroy,Flynn or Cooke v David Moran, Jack Berry. I presume Kerry will start Kieran Donaghy on the edge of the square after all the problems he caused Galway last year so that should be a good test Sean Andy O Ceallaigh. How Galway mark Paul Geaney will be very important also in the league win v Kerry is was held scoreless i believe.

Finding it hard to call a winner so i'll sit on the fence and call a draw. Galway 2-12 Kerry 1-15

mystic86

Bonniedog wrote: »

I would imagine that the last series of games - at the very least within the two groups - would have to be played at the same time on the same day? Otherwise there is always the albeit slim possibility that teams might plan "strategically"! Which is why all final round league games are same time.

I would think ensuring a 7 day turnaround, especially for the 'underdogs' (the teams likely to finish in 2nd place in each group) would trump the above.

manofwisdom

elefant wrote: »

Where Kildare might have any advantage is solely down to momentum gained from those games. They're inferior to Galway in every other respect.

They were inferior to Mayo also but didn't play 5 games in 5 weeks going into that game. Momentum soon diminishes when the tank become empty.

Bonniedog

mystic86 wrote: »

I would think ensuring a 7 day turnaround, especially for the 'underdogs' (the teams likely to finish in 2nd place in each group) would trump the above.

It can't really. There are possible scenarios where might suit a team already assured of a top two place to lose to ensure that a team they might like to see the back of don't qualify. Unlikely perhaps, but nonetheless. All competitions in all sports where that is possibility including GAA NFL and NHL follow that pattern.

ArmaniJeanss

Bonniedog wrote: »

It can't really. There are possible scenarios where might suit a team already assured of a top two place to lose to ensure that a team they might like to see the back of don't qualify. Unlikely perhaps, but nonetheless. All competitions in all sports where that is possibility including GAA NFL and NHL follow that pattern.

Well all should, but not all do. e.g., the rugby world cup still has differing times for the final set of games within a group. Ditto the cricket world cup.

Bonniedog

I stand corrected. More likely in a league situation but not impossible in small round robin group which is comparable to examples you refer to.

Say, Dublin beat Donegal and Tyrone, and Rossies beat Donegal. Tyrone beat Ros and Donegal face Tyrone in last game. Dublin have 4, Tyrone 2, Donegal 2, and Ros 2.

Dubs are in semis regardless. Would suit them for Roscommon to make semis rather than either of other two!

Not saying that is at all within the mindset of any county team, but possibility needs to be guarded against.

charlie14

cjmc wrote: »

Getting out of Breffni is no easy task either. Another reason for choosing Clones is its pretty central in Ulster , but still in the South , which was vital in the past. I have also read and heard how the atmosphere on UF day is like very few other grounds and its now synonymous with the Ulster final

Park out on the by-pass and Breffni isn`t to bad, plus a designated driver and it`s a grand town for a few pints.
That was the thinking on Clones, but during the troubles going north from it was a nightmare after a game.
The venue itself is top notch and Ulster Final day, a tight game with both teams going for it hell for leather and supporters making themselves know, very few grounds like it to make the hairs stand on the back of your neck.

One of the reasons imo that an Ulster senior championship medal is so coveted by players more than in the other provinces.

mystic86

Bonniedog wrote: »

It can't really. There are possible scenarios where might suit a team already assured of a top two place to lose to ensure that a team they might like to see the back of don't qualify. Unlikely perhaps, but nonetheless. All competitions in all sports where that is possibility including GAA NFL and NHL follow that pattern.

I would prefer this over any team getting a 6 day turnaround in an already congested period.

Also, regarding the general scheduling of the Super 8s, I'm guessing that as Dublin are out on Saturday they'll also be out on the Saturday the 21st to ensure all teams have a 7 day turnaround. Then the week after is a rest weekend, so I'm expecting they'll then switch them around and put Dublin on the Sunday for the last round of the Super 8 and also for the semi final. With Kerry etc being on the other days in each of those.

JB81

blowitupref wrote: »

The main improvement for Galway 1st half to 2nd half was their shooting. 8 wides in the 1st half to just 2 in the 2nd half and matter of fact it took 20 mins of the 2nd half before they kicked a wide. Roscommon on the other hand shot selection got worse as the game went on and each wide drained the confidence out of them yet the game was still to be won in injury time.


Kerry aren't going to be as poor on their shot selection.
The midfield battle will probably be the deciding factor in this game more so than than the Connacht final. Conroy,Flynn or Cooke v David Moran, Jack Berry. I presume Kerry will start Kieran Donaghy on the edge of the square after all the problems he caused Galway last year so that should be a good test Sean Andy O Ceallaigh. How Galway mark Paul Geaney will be very important also in the league win v Kerry is was held scoreless i believe.

Finding it hard to call a winner so i'll sit on the fence and call a draw. Galway 2-12 Kerry 1-15

Not a chance of Donaghy starting after the three inside forwards performance against Cork, however he will come on as a sub.
Only chance he has of starting is if one of them gets injured ( and even at that he is not guaranteed ) or if Kerry win their first two games, he may start the third.

JB81

mystic86 wrote: »

I would prefer this over any team getting a 6 day turnaround in an already congested period.

Also, regarding the general scheduling of the Super 8s, I'm guessing that as Dublin are out on Saturday they'll also be out on the Saturday the 21st to ensure all teams have a 7 day turnaround. Then the week after is a rest weekend, so I'm expecting they'll then switch them around and put Dublin on the Sunday for the last round of the Super 8 and also for the semi final. With Kerry etc being on the other days in each of those.

That sounds about right yeah, although Sky and RTE may have a say in it depending on whats at stake in the last round of games