Buildy-uppy thread: Ire vs Scot

typhoony

typhoony wrote: »

while we seem to be losing players Scotland have several players returning from injury, I remember the game in Croke Park where we supposed to win easily and they turned us over. we could do with Seymour not recovering from injury.

We haven't lost anyone from the Wales game have we? And it looks like Henderson and Furlong are back in training.

Edit, Farrell, doh.

cameramonkey

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Barnes does penalise early at ruck but dont agree at all about your point about Wales. We have lost those games for many other reasons and nothing to do with Barnes as ref

Barnes has always been like that. Refs very strictly and if you dont follow his interpretation he ups sanction quite quickyl.

I dont think some of those games have been Barnes best games.

I dont really normallycomplain about refs but I think Ireland were a bit harshly dealt with in some of those games.

I think it was last year there were repeated Welsh infringements which resulted in penalties close enough to the Welsh line, no yellow was offered by Barnes. Then Sexton was judged to have killed a ball on the Welsh line, yellow straight away.

It was very harsh in my opinion. We all want want consistency in refs, this was not consistent.

The Lost Sheep

cameramonkey wrote: »

I dont think some of those games have been Barnes best games.

I dont really normallycomplain about refs but I think Ireland were a bit harshly dealt with in some of those games.

I think it was last year there were repeated Welsh infringements which resulted in penalties close enough to the Welsh line, no yellow was offered by Barnes. Then Sexton was judged to have killed a ball on the Welsh line, yellow straight away.

It was very harsh in my opinion. We all want want consistency in refs, this was not consistent.

I dont see that as true and that isnt being inconsistent.
You have to look at a lot more like speed of ball, potential for a score etc. Anyway this isnt thread for discussing that game.

cameramonkey

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I dont see that as true and that isnt being inconsistent.
You have to look at a lot more like speed of ball, potential for a score etc. Anyway this isnt thread for discussing that game.

Barnes is reffing the Scotland game, we are are talking about him and the impacts he has had on previous games that Ireland were involved in.

This may give us some insight into how he may ref the Scotland game.

prawnsambo

cameramonkey wrote: »

Barnes is reffing the Scotland game, we are are talking about him and the impacts he has had on previous games that Ireland were involved in.

This may give us some insight into how he may ref the Scotland game.

I don't remember being particularly aggrieved by Barnes last year. Refs don't give out yellows on a whim. And repeated infringements don't automatically mean a yellow card, there's always a warning first. Wales had ten penalties in that match, not exactly a bucketload that would warrant a yellow card. Unless they all came together.

stephen_n

cameramonkey wrote: »

I dont think some of those games have been Barnes best games.

I dont really normallycomplain about refs but I think Ireland were a bit harshly dealt with in some of those games.

I think it was last year there were repeated Welsh infringements which resulted in penalties close enough to the Welsh line, no yellow was offered by Barnes. Then Sexton was judged to have killed a ball on the Welsh line, yellow straight away.

It was very harsh in my opinion. We all want want consistency in refs, this was not consistent.

Three years ago in Cardiff we came out on the wrong side of Barnes at the ruck. That was entirely our fault though, you could hear him saying to the players, we discussed this in the dressing room before the game. Now if a ref gives clear instructions to the teams about how he wants the game played and they choose to ignore him, then that’s not the refs fault. The one complaint I’d have about Barnes style, is that he goes very hard on certain aspects early in games, then seems to relax on them as the game goes on. It’s a slightly inconsistent approach but teams study refs and should be able to respond appropriately.

Neil3030

Much is made of England possibly being over-coached, while Scotland adapted well to the ref last week.

Where are we on this continuum, have Ireland demonstrated an ability to adapt to a ref on the fly, under Schmidt, or do we go out with a set plan drilled into us that's hard to shake?

prawnsambo

Neil3030 wrote: »

Much is made of England possibly being over-coached, while Scotland adapted well to the ref last week.

Where are we on this continuum, have Ireland demonstrated an ability to adapt to a ref on the fly, under Schmidt, or do we go out with a set plan drilled into us that's hard to shake?

Four penalties in the last match would indicate that we have that one in hand. In fact we haven't got out of single figures so far.

Burkie1203

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't remember being particularly aggrieved by Barnes last year. Refs don't give out yellows on a whim. And repeated infringements don't automatically mean a yellow card, there's always a warning first. Wales had ten penalties in that match, not exactly a bucketload that would warrant a yellow card. Unless they all came together.

IIRC warburton killed the ball close to the wales line early in the game. Sexton did similar near half time. He binned Sexton and he said something about it being cynical

Neil3030

prawnsambo wrote: »

Four penalties in the last match would indicate that we have that one in hand. In fact we haven't got out of single figures so far.

This means our discipline is good, it doesn't necessarily clarify whether we are rigid or flexible to the ref, though. E.g., suppose we do our analysis and decide that an upcoming ref allows no competition by defending teams at the breakdown. So the players are drilled all week to stay away from competing. We go into the game, and it turns out the referee is actually allowing a fairly decent contest. This is the scenario I'm curious about - would this Ireland team stay true to the plan and abstain from competing, or adapt, in the way Scotland did last week. In either scenario we give away few penalties, but only by adapting might we win a few in return.

irelandrover

Neil3030 wrote: »

Much is made of England possibly being over-coached, while Scotland adapted well to the ref last week.

Where are we on this continuum, have Ireland demonstrated an ability to adapt to a ref on the fly, under Schmidt, or do we go out with a set plan drilled into us that's hard to shake?

I feel this is somewhere that we will really miss Heaslip. He was one that was intelligent enough to adapt to a situation and have the leadership to command the rest of the team.

prawnsambo

Neil3030 wrote: »

This means our discipline is good, it doesn't necessarily clarify whether we are rigid or flexible to the ref, though. E.g., suppose we do our analysis and decide that an upcoming ref allows no competition by defending teams at the breakdown. So the players are drilled all week to stay away from competing. We go into the game, and it turns out the referee is actually allowing a fairly decent contest. This is the scenario I'm curious about - would this Ireland team stay true to the plan and abstain from competing, or adapt, in the way Scotland did last week. In either scenario we give away few penalties, but only by adapting might we win a few in return.

I don't think I've seen a match lately where we've been caught like that. Even in Paris where Nigel was allowing a lot of leeway at the ruck, we weren't exactly shrinking violets when it came to our turn to slow down French ball.

kilns

I would rather have Barnes reffing our game than Jackson or Owens

Bridge93

Would agree, I've been saying for a while I'm not a fan of Owens to the same extent anymore and Jackson is still inexperienced and makes errors. At least Barnes is somewhat consistent. He gets a hard time which is often totally misplaced due to an Irish team losing a game

kilns

Owens is tied up in his own celebrity now and seems to be making up his own rules as goes along

Jackson is just a terrible referee, probably the worst on the circuit and only is at this level because he was an ex player at a decent level, which seems to make people think he knows more

England lost 10 rucks against Scotland which is a **** load. I think at least a couple of them were verging on illegal, i.e. hands on the ball after the ruck was formed. I don't think Barnes will tolerate that. Tbh I really don't like Nigel reffing Ireland or Leinster anymore, you have no idea what you're going to get from him anymore.

Against Wales, Scotland never got a foothold in the game. They just went wide early and often. I don't think we'll give them a foothold either.

razorblunt

typhoony wrote: »

while we seem to be losing players Scotland have several players returning from injury, I remember the game in Croke Park where we supposed to win easily and they turned us over. we could do with Seymour not recovering from injury.

If they play McGuigan over Seymour I wouldn't be too worried.
It's Jones (who's been called in) that I'd be worried about, he's really improved as a player and is flying under the radar.

Coincidentally, last time he played in the Aviva he was knocked absolutely spark out cold in a tackle from Trimble.
He flew back on his own with a medic the day after, didn't seem to be with it at all, the poor chap.

jr86

jr86 wrote: »

Is there really that much of a correlation between club and national form?

Whatever way you look at it that was an outstanding win. To essentially hammer a side with 2 losses since 2015

Can't see us putting down England so easily next week when it's us to face them, in fact we'll be probably be hailing it as one of our greatest victories of all time if we win in Twickenham Saturday week, and there would be a lot of merit in it too.

Scotland did no noe any favours beating England in the manner they did. england will not be going in to the next two games sounder prepared.

swiwi_ wrote: »

Leaving the hapless Italians aside, when was the last time Scotland achieved an away 6N victory?

2010....in Croke park.

irishbucsfan

Aegir wrote: »

Scotland did no noe

noone

molloyjh

stephen_n wrote: »

Three years ago in Cardiff we came out on the wrong side of Barnes at the ruck. That was entirely our fault though, you could hear him saying to the players, we discussed this in the dressing room before the game. Now if a ref gives clear instructions to the teams about how he wants the game played and they choose to ignore him, then that’s not the refs fault. The one complaint I’d have about Barnes style, is that he goes very hard on certain aspects early in games, then seems to relax on them as the game goes on. It’s a slightly inconsistent approach but teams study refs and should be able to respond appropriately.

This is my biggest gripe with Barnes tbh. We all talk about wanting consistency from a referee a lot, but he's a perfect example of a guy who can easily treat the same offence completely differently from one part of a match to another. That's just infuriating to watch.

Now generally speaking he is a good ref, and there is an element of teams having to understand and play him in that regard. But that still doesn't mean that he should get a free pass for being inconsistent. If he's going to be hot on something in a game he should be hot on it for 80 minutes, not 30 or 40.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

This is my biggest gripe with Barnes tbh. We all talk about wanting consistency from a referee a lot, but he's a perfect example of a guy who can easily treat the same offence completely differently from one part of a match to another. That's just infuriating to watch.

Now generally speaking he is a good ref, and there is an element of teams having to understand and play him in that regard. But that still doesn't mean that he should get a free pass for being inconsistent. If he's going to be hot on something in a game he should be hot on it for 80 minutes, not 30 or 40.

I remember him saying that he refs the final 10-20 minutes differently allowing for tiredness etc which is wrong

molloyjh

connemara man wrote: »

I remember him saying that he refs the final 10-20 minutes differently allowing for tiredness etc which is wrong

Really? Never noticed that at all. I know he tends to pick one offence at the start of a game and go hell for leather on that for 30 or 40 minutes, pretty much what TLS is talking about. It's like he then thinks "grand, point made" and eases off for the remainder of the game.

Overall as a ref I do like him. He's clear, will speak with players openly but is strong enough to not be swayed too much by them, doesn't have any noticeable weakness to his game that I can tell (e.g. Poite at scrum time) and manages games pretty well on the whole. I just feel his approach to his "law of the day" side of things is frustrating, albeit well know and probably stated by himself in advance. Being a bit more forgiving in the last 10 minutes or so is probably not the end of the world, but I'd be curious to see what kind of impact something like that has.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Really? Never noticed that at all. I know he tends to pick one offence at the start of a game and go hell for leather on that for 30 or 40 minutes, pretty much what TLS is talking about. It's like he then thinks "grand, point made" and eases off for the remainder of the game.

Overall as a ref I do like him. He's clear, will speak with players openly but is strong enough to not be swayed too much by them, doesn't have any noticeable weakness to his game that I can tell (e.g. Poite at scrum time) and manages games pretty well on the whole. I just feel his approach to his "law of the day" side of things is frustrating, albeit well know and probably stated by himself in advance. Being a bit more forgiving in the last 10 minutes or so is probably not the end of the world, but I'd be curious to see what kind of impact something like that has.

I do think he's a good ref and I think that about tiredness is also partly like you said he feels he made the point earlier on. But he has said in a BT show he acknowledges tiredness

connemara man

connemara man wrote: »

I remember him saying that he refs the final 10-20 minutes differently allowing for tiredness etc which is wrong

I feel the same about Owens. If those last 40 phases against France were at the start of the match, we would have won a few penalties.

Former Former

Aegir wrote: »

Scotland did no noe any favours beating England in the manner they did. england will not be going in to the next two games sounder prepared.

Scotland did Ireland an absolutely enormous favour

prawnsambo

connemara man wrote: »

I do think he's a good ref and I think that about tiredness is also partly like you said he feels he made the point earlier on. But he has said in a BT show he acknowledges tiredness

I think that's fair enough. If you've guys at the beginning of a match lying in rucks like a sack of spuds, he'll ping them. But later on if they're struggling a bit he'll leave them be if they're not interfering with play.

pickarooney

Barnes himself is probably physically and mentally tired in the last 10 minutes. It's bloody hard to keep on top of everything when you have two new front rows in place and fresh-legged backs to keep an eye on.

joseywhales

Could there be better for preparation for the world cup with Scotland and a 1/4 against south Africa. Scotland and England in Twickenham for the championship.

swiwi_

kilns wrote: »

Owens is tied up in his own celebrity now and seems to be making up his own rules as goes along

Jackson is just a terrible referee, probably the worst on the circuit and only is at this level because he was an ex player at a decent level, which seems to make people think he knows more

What rules has Owens made up. Examples please.

The Lost Sheep

kilns wrote: »

Owens is tied up in his own celebrity now and seems to be making up his own rules as goes along

Jackson is just a terrible referee, probably the worst on the circuit and only is at this level because he was an ex player at a decent level, which seems to make people think he knows more

Eh what laws does Owens make up?
That isnt true about Jackson. Care to explain how he is terrible? Is it positioning? Laws knowledge? What exactly?