Buildy-uppy thread: Ire vs Scot

swiwi_

So the Scots have some injured calvary back.

Richie Gray
Fraser Brown
Zander Fagerson
Alex Dunbar
Darryl Marfo

John Hardie is back after his dalliance with Pepsi, as well as George Horne, Byron McGuigan, Lee Jones, and Magnus Bradbury.

What is up with the injured Irish players?

Nb: not considered due to injury - Tim Visser (blessing in disguise), Rob Harley - giving up the ginger advantage

cavemeister

Was listening to the news today and they were saying that Furlong and Henderson will be fit.

My only concerns are:
12/13 channel - Huw Jones will run straight through what will be a very inexperienced Irish centre partnership (Aki & Ringrose) and that Hogg will be fully aware of Stockdales defensive shortfall and will exploit.

Our forwards will dominate the Scots but it's the Scottish backline that really worries me.

Buer

I would be very nervous of Ringrose starting at 13. I can't see him being close to ready for 6N level of intensity and I imagine he'll need a few games to get up to speed on patterns/systems etc.

The idea of a barely fit Ringrose defending the 13 channel with Stockdale outside him fills me with apprehension. Scotland will be running Hogg and Jones at that channel all afternoon. We'll need to own the ball and put real pressure on Russell when in possession to disrupt any clean ball they're able to move wide.

Henshaw will be a real loss for this game.

Sangre

Buer wrote: »

I would be very nervous of Ringrose starting at 13. I can't see him being close to ready for 6N level of intensity and I imagine he'll need a few games to get up to speed on patterns/systems etc.

The idea of a barely fit Ringrose defending the 13 channel with Stockdale outside him fills me with apprehension. Scotland will be running Hogg and Jones at that channel all afternoon. We'll need to own the ball and put real pressure on Russell when in possession to disrupt any clean ball they're able to move wide.

Henshaw will be a real loss for this game.

Worryingly Scotland only needed 44% possession and 43% territory to win against England. They will probably have less than that against us but they obviously don't need to dominate the stats to score points.

This will be a fascinating encounter.

I fully expect Ireland to win, but then I expected England to beat Scotland as well.

If Scotland do come out on top, then we could potentially see the final day starting with Ireland and England on 14 points and Scotland on 13, but playing Italy in the final day.

Could Scotland win the six nations :eek:

Bridge93

Was it the Scots who tried to choke poor ROG until a brave John Hayes saved the day? Do it for ROG

Buer

Bridge93 wrote: »

Was it the Scots who tried to choke poor ROG until a brave John Hayes saved the day? Do it for ROG

It turned out to be Hayes' bingo wing suffocating him.

sydthebeat

ireland are -10... and fully justified in my opinion.

Yes, we have a bit of a crisis with injuries in midfield, but we were able to call upon a relative novice in C Farrell who puts in a MOTM performance against wales. If Ringrose is in there, id be fully satisfied that hes match fit and hes our best available player.

I think we could actually hit these guys for a bonus point.

At home, returning lions, battle hardened bench.
Scotland have a tenancy to follow up a great performance with a poor one, much like where we were a few years back.
Beat wales last year, loose abjectly to England
Beat Argentina in oz, loose to fiji the next week
Piss poor against wales this year, fantastic against England.

Bridge93

I'll be putting money on Ireland -10 I think. Scotland not won't away bar Italy since 2010. Although that was in dublin

aloooof

Scotland are poor away from home, while Ireland's record under Schmidt at Lansdowne is pretty formidable. And yet, I'm slightly apprehensive about this one.

Maybe it's an over-reaction on my part but with the returning Ringrose, Stockdale's occasional defensive lapse and the width Scotland put on the ball, I can see them causing us problems out wide.

Having said that, I still expect us to win and if we do have Henderson and Furlong back, I'll be a lot more positive.

Former Former

Squad update: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/41540.php#.Wp026XzLhhE

Herring, Henderson and Furlong all due back, Barry Daly added to the squad. N Scannell and Conway back "next week"

Team pretty much picks itself if that turns out to be accurate, probably the only question is whether McFadden holds onto the 23 jersey or whether Larmour gets a go.

Healy Best Furlong
Henderson Ryan
POM Stander Leavy
Murray Sexton
Stockdale Aki Ringrose Earls
Kearney

Cronin McGrath Porter Toner Conan Marmion Carbery McFadden/Larmour

razorblunt

I'm really apprehensive about this.

Ringrose coming back in, Stockdale and Kearney poor defensively. The Scots on the up, especially Hogg. I was really excited to see Farrell and Aki go up against Jones in this one.
I think Best will really need to be vocal too if both Gray brothers start as they'll just flop all over rucks and ensure the Scots have all day back there.

durthacht

Former Former wrote: »

...Team pretty much picks itself if that turns out to be accurate, probably the only question is whether McFadden holds onto the 23 jersey or whether Larmour gets a go.

Healy Best Furlong
Henderson Ryan
POM Stander Leavy
Murray Sexton
Stockdale Aki Ringrose Earls
Kearney

Cronin McGrath Porter Toner Conan Marmion Carbery McFadden/Larmour

Don't know about that as I imagine there are close calls at LH and second row.

Aside from that though I do agree.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

It turned out to be Hayes' bingo wing suffocating him.

One day I'll find you.

The Rape of Lucretia

Buer wrote: »

I would be very nervous of Ringrose starting at 13.
The idea of a barely fit Ringrose defending the 13 channel with Stockdale outside him fills me with apprehension.

You make a good case for leaving Stockdale out of this one and bringing back a safe pair of hands. Trimble. Or Tommy Bowe maybe. He does do Grand Slams. Trimble only does championships. I am OK with either.

cavemeister

I'd seriously consider putting Earls on the left wing and McFadden on the right. Need to shore up any defensive shortfall for this one. Don't go for the bonus point, just grind out the win... With our barren midfield, this is the best option.

Squatter

Bridge93 wrote: »

Was it the Scots who tried to choke poor ROG until a brave John Hayes saved the day? Do it for ROG

One of Eddie "the spoofer" O'Sullivan's more deranged claims. He got away with it too.

England were poor against Scotland and not great against Italy. Premiership teams are dire this year bar one or two exceptions. I wouldn't automatically fear Scotland off the back of their win in Murrayfield.

Anyone who is really concerned about Scotland coming to town need to go back and watch the Wales game. They will be better but they are a very beatable team. Ireland will strangle them in a way that England couldn't and whilst Scotland will definitely bag a few tries, I think we'll beat them with a decent cushion.

Burkie1203

Re concerns about Ringrose. Possible it could be 12 Ringrose 13 Aki??? Defensively at least they could line up that way. Ringrose played v NZ and Aus at inside centre

Sangre

Unless Scotland can start off well I think its going to be a long day for them. They'll start chasing the game and we'll suffocate them completely.

Teferi

Famous last words here but not too worried about this fixture. Scotland are awful away from home and celebrated like they won the world cup, two weeks ago when they beat the English. I think they won't be able to gee themselves up emotionally for the encounter. We'll have to shore up the defence on the outside as Scotland have the backs to exploit that particular weakness of ours, but otherwise, I think we should suffocate them.

jr86

Teferi wrote: »

Famous last words here but not too worried about this fixture. Scotland are awful away from home and celebrated like they won the world cup, two weeks ago when they beat the English. I think they won't be able to gee themselves up emotionally for the encounter. We'll have to shore up the defence on the outside as Scotland have the backs to exploit that particular weakness of ours, but otherwise, I think we should suffocate them.

To be fair this is their "World Cup Final", win it and they might just actually win the competition. Can't see hunger or intensity being an issue and they've had a 2 week layoff now

One minute I think Ireland will win it handy, the next I think it's a real banana skin. Stats like Scotland's away record over the past few years aren't as assuring when you see their improvement in 2017, which has continued through to this year - if that massive win against England is anything to go by

I rate this Scotland team better than Wales these days (opening day apart) and certainly better than France so while generally during the 6n era we may be conditioned to thinking "it's just Scotland", I do think this is our toughest opponent to date

jr86

Deleted User wrote: »

England were poor against Scotland and not great against Italy. Premiership teams are dire this year bar one or two exceptions. I wouldn't automatically fear Scotland off the back of their win in Murrayfield.

Is there really that much of a correlation between club and national form?

Whatever way you look at it that was an outstanding win. To essentially hammer a side with 2 losses since 2015

Can't see us putting down England so easily next week when it's us to face them, in fact we'll be probably be hailing it as one of our greatest victories of all time if we win in Twickenham Saturday week, and there would be a lot of merit in it too.

ClanofLams

cavemeister wrote: »

I'd seriously consider putting Earls on the left wing and McFadden on the right. Need to shore up any defensive shortfall for this one. Don't go for the bonus point, just grind out the win... With our barren midfield, this is the best option.

McFadden didn’t exactly cover himself in glory in defence against Wales although he’s usually solid to be fair. Would be shocked to see him starting though.

arsebiscuits1

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

You make a good case for leaving Stockdale out of this one and bringing back a safe pair of hands. Trimble. Or Tommy Bowe maybe. He does do Grand Slams. Trimble only does championships. I am OK with either.

I'm more likely to get a call up than either of those fellas I reckon.

While they will publicly say at every opportunity that they're taking it game by game, the Irish management have 1 eye on the WC. Bowe has already said he is retiring, why parachute in a players whose been out of the system in who will be gone at the end of the season?

They've called up Barry Daly this week due to Conways issues. I reckon Sweetnam is next on that list. Then it's a straight shoot out between all of the other fit wingers in Ireland... followed by Zebo

jr86

jr86 wrote: »

Is there really that much of a correlation between club and national form?

Whatever way you look at it that was an outstanding win. To essentially hammer a side with 2 losses since 2015

Can't see us putting down England so easily next week when it's us to face them, in fact we'll be probably be hailing it as one of our greatest victories of all time if we win in Twickenham Saturday week, and there would be a lot of merit in it too.

I think there is a reasonable correlation. In the 2015 / 2016 champions cup season England had 5 teams into the knock outs with Saracens winning the entire thing and forming the spine of the team that fairly comfortably won the Grand Slam.

Ireland had no teams in the knock out stages and had our worst six nations under Joe that same year. Ireland won the Grand Slam when Leinster and Munster were consistently the best two teams in Europe.

I don't think it is the be all and end all as Wales have been competitive when the provinces haven't but I think it impacts Ireland and England more due to our selection policies and history in the domestic leagues.

It was an outstanding win for Scotland in round 3. Outstanding is probably the right word because it was exceptional, ie: not usual or typical. It was out of the ordinary and unexpected. I don't think they can do it two fixtures in a row, home and away.

I personally think Ireland would need to seriously under perform to lose the game. I think we're much more likely to get a TBP win than a loss of any kind.

jr86

Deleted User wrote: »

I think there is a reasonable correlation. In the 2015 / 2016 champions cup season England had 5 teams into the knock outs with Saracens winning the entire thing and forming the spine of the team that fairly comfortably won the Grand Slam.

Ireland had no teams in the knock out stages and had our worst six nations under Joe that same year. Ireland won the Grand Slam when Leinster and Munster were consistently the best two teams in Europe.

From what I recall 2016 was a pure write off campaign for us, in terms of injuries. We had a load of fringe players playing in Twickenham anyway. So maybe not the best example

We lost two matches in 2011 and 12 (was it even 3 in 2012?) when Leinster won Europe, and beat Ulster one year.

Dubinusa

Should be a cracker of a game. I'd start toner just for the line out and for his presence in the maul. Hopefully ringrose is sharp. I think he's the best 13 we have and offers better attacking options. Hopefully we get the ball out to earls a bit and watch the wee man work his magic. Set piece has got to function, or it will be s long day. Sexton will be on the money with his place kicking. We can't afford to miss kickable opportunities. I worry for this game more than the final fixture. Scotland are a serious outfit when firing on all cylinders.

aloooof

Dubinusa wrote: »

I worry for this game more than the final fixture.

Can't help but feel there's strong recency-bias in this post. While I am slightly apprehensive about this game, I've no doubt that beating England in Twickenham is an exponentially more difficult task.

irelandrover

Scotland were good against England. Scotland were one of the worst teams I've seen in the competition against Wales.

ireland should be beating them easily enough at home.

sydthebeat

England were too passive at ruck time, we shouldnt in any way be passive....... rucking is our strength and an important basic in how we play.

what we need to do is tighten up out wide, i think ringrose could actually enhance this compared to aki / farrell or henshaw / aki.
Hopefully hes fit and ready to go.

MJohnston

I can't remember where I read it exactly, but someone made a great point that one of the direct ways the Premiership has affected the English national team is at the rucks - AP refs have constantly in rucks favoured the team who are attacking all season, so English players have learned to under-resource them, maybe 1 player to defend each one. Whereas in the Pro 14 the refs are much more matched to the way the Six Nations is being refereed, favouring the team who are defending/looking for a turnover - so players have learned to commit plenty to each one. I think that was really obvious against Scotland.

aloooof

MJohnston wrote: »

I can't remember where I read it exactly, but someone made a great point that one of the direct ways the Premiership has affected the English national team is at the rucks - AP refs have constantly in rucks favoured the team who are attacking all season, so English players have learned to under-resource them, maybe 1 player to defend each one. Whereas in the Pro 14 the refs are much more matched to the way the Six Nations is being refereed, favouring the team who are defending/looking for a turnover - so players have learned to commit plenty to each one. I think that was really obvious against Scotland.

I remember reading this as well, tho I believe the point was made more in relation to the Champions Cup fixtures between English and Pro14 teams. You'd have thought the England setup would have had enough time and prior warning to rectify this.

Sangre

aloooof wrote: »

I remember reading this as well, tho I believe the point was made more in relation to the Champions Cup fixtures between English and Pro14 teams. You'd have thought the England setup would have had enough time and prior warning to rectify this.

Yes, I'm not sure why Eddie Jones (who has not coached in AP in many years) would change his systems as a result of current reffing in the AP.

Shefwedfan

Scotland are sh*t away from home. Ireland will win.

Please close thread now and see you for the England build up thread :-)

aloooof

Sangre wrote: »

Yes, I'm not sure why Eddie Jones (who has not coached in AP in many years) would change his systems as a result of current reffing in the AP.

I never suggested he should change his systems as a result of current reffing in the AP. What he should be doing though is adapting his systems around any given match-day referee.

Given what I've read about the breakdown in the Scotland v England game, it's not surprising to me to read that Nigel Owens was the ref.

prawnsambo

Sangre wrote: »

Yes, I'm not sure why Eddie Jones (who has not coached in AP in many years) would change his systems as a result of current reffing in the AP.

Reffing in the Champion's Cup, not the AP. But I'm not sure why he'd ignore the opening fixtures in the 6N (if not the CC) where a lot more leeway was given to defending teams at the breakdown. Our match in Paris being a case in point, since Nigel was the ref there too.

Sangre

aloooof wrote: »

I never suggested he should change his systems as a result of current reffing in the AP. What he should be doing though is adapting his systems around any given match-day referee.

Given what I've read about the breakdown in the Scotland v England game, it's not surprising to me to read that Nigel Owens was the ref.

I didn't mean to imply you did. I was just following on that I didn't necessarily agree that reffing in CC/AP would impact way England play.

I think we're going to strangle them and win comfortably enough. We won't stand off rucks like England did for example, we're a better team than Scotland imo and my only worry is we won't concentrate for the 80 mins as happened against Italy and Scotland.

Team as you were with Ringrose at 13, Henderson and Furlong to come back in it fit, and might as well put Larmour back on the bench because if McFadden is going to come on and make defensive mistakes as he did then there's no point in him being there. If Conway is fit then Conway over both of them.

cameramonkey

razorblunt wrote: »

I'm really apprehensive about this.
I think Best will really need to be vocal too if both Gray brothers start as they'll just flop all over rucks and ensure the Scots have all day back there.

If the Scots flop all over the rucks they will get a hammering.

Wayne Barnes loves punishing often and early at the rucks. He would love to dish out multiple penalties.

Wayne Barnes is not my favorite ref. We have not lost to Wales in the 6 nations for about 7 years except when Barnes was the ref.

It was lucky for us that he is in charge of this one rather than our match against against Wales.

prawnsambo

cameramonkey wrote: »

If the Scots flop all over the rucks they will get a hammering.

Wayne Barnes loves punishing often and early at the rucks. He would love to dish out multiple penalties.

Wayne Barnes is not my favorite ref. We have not lost to Wales in the 6 nations for about 7 years except when Barnes was the ref.

It was lucky for us that he is in charge of this one rather than our match against against Wales.

That's way ott. Barnes is actually the guy who gives clear instructions these days and goes out of his way to praise quick response to his commands. You often hear him saying "Good discipline" and other such encouragement to players who react quickly. He (quite rightly) gets annoyed if he isn't heeded and will discipline accordingly.

He's strict, but gives players the chance to stop infringing. He's not as laissez-faire as Nigel is these days.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

He's not as laissez-faire as Nigel is these days.

Nigel is just making it up as he goes along these days.

.ak

The thing is Scotland are not going to approach this game like they approached the England game. Like most teams at top level there will be a huge amount of research done on the oppo. They did their homework on England, recognised they only commit one player to offensive rucks and they attacked them there and did a number on them.

For my money I think if Scotland are clever, and Townsend is no mug, they’ll be looking very, very closely at the France and Wales games against us. Where did they get their most change from us?
Well both teams needed to make a vast amount of tackles, and both teams scored with little or no possession or territory. Both teams ran us dangerously close.

Scotland won’t target the breakdown. They’ll fan out and trust their defence to soak up the pressure and rely on their patience to wait for counter attack opportunities.

We’ve got to be very, very cute with the ball. Will we see many more strings to our attack? I think a little, but don’t expect anything flashy, think we’ll see some screen plays and loops to force the Scots to come up a little flat, add some clever kicking and we could see the Scots losing their shape. We’ve got to be patient with the ball tho.

bilston

There is some crazy overreaction about Stockdale's defence. Yes he was caught out for the second Welsh try last week, but what's interesting is that everyone who has played on the wing in the Championship this year has found themselves in the same position at least once, where they shoot out and get isolated. There was an incident where Earls did the same thing but it didn't end in a try, McFadden got caught out against Wales and Larmour did it against Italy. So the question is whether it's down to the individuals or the system? Or a bit of both.

I can see a myth evolving now about Stockdale's defence. A bit like Tommy Bowe having a lack of pace.

NinetyTwoTeam

Scotland won their championship last match. Ireland will hammer them at home. Someone said 'dont go for the bonus point just grind out the win' lol if you get the bonus point the title could be wrapped up before going to Twickenham, pretty sure that's what they'll want to do.

People overreacting to Scotland's win big time, long as Sexton has a better game kicking and i think he will and Ireland win by double digits IMO.

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

There is some crazy overreaction about Stockdale's defence. Yes he was caught out for the second Welsh try last week, but what's interesting is that everyone who has played on the wing in the Championship this year has found themselves in the same position at least once, where they shoot out and get isolated.

Where?

Have seen it commented on, but usually tempered by the acknowledgment that the errors occurred further infield and Stockdale was the lad left holding the baby. The worse thing that could be said of him is that he made the wrong decision. But at least he made one.

A propos of nothing, I love to see the lad play. He always has a smile on his face. Be a shame to lose that.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Where?

Have seen it commented on, but usually tempered by the acknowledgment that the errors occurred further infield and Stockdale was the lad left holding the baby. The worse thing that could be said of him is that he made the wrong decision. But at least he made one.

A propos of nothing, I love to see the lad play. He always has a smile on his face. Be a shame to lose that.

Actually much of the criticism is that he gets caught flat, hence making no decision being exactly what he was criticised for ha ha!

He'll learn, it's definitely a weakness for him but he'll get there. I don't think any of the commentary has been over the top. I think any risk of him dropping out for a more defensive oriented winger were dispelled when he put 2 tries on Wales. None of the alternatives showed up particularly well against Italy either.

connemara man

prawnsambo wrote: »

Where?

Have seen it commented on, but usually tempered by the acknowledgment that the errors occurred further infield and Stockdale was the lad left holding the baby. The worse thing that could be said of him is that he made the wrong decision. But at least he made one.

A propos of nothing, I love to see the lad play. He always has a smile on his face. Be a shame to lose that.

The hard yards were talking about him and his defence in particular and said Ireland might be better off starting Mcfadden

swiwi_

Leaving the hapless Italians aside, when was the last time Scotland achieved an away 6N victory? Think Ireland will win comfortably enough.

bilston

prawnsambo wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

There is some crazy overreaction about Stockdale's defence. Yes he was caught out for the second Welsh try last week, but what's interesting is that everyone who has played on the wing in the Championship this year has found themselves in the same position at least once, where they shoot out and get isolated.

Where?

Have seen it commented on, but usually tempered by the acknowledgment that the errors occurred further infield and Stockdale was the lad left holding the baby. The worse thing that could be said of him is that he made the wrong decision. But at least he made one.

A propos of nothing, I love to see the lad play. He always has a smile on his face. Be a shame to lose that.

At least two posters on this thread (admittedly one of them is TROL) have said he should be dropped and replaced by McFadden.

bilston

swiwi_ wrote: »

Leaving the hapless Italians aside, when was the last time Scotland achieved an away 6N victory? Think Ireland will win comfortably enough.

So do I. I was worried about the Wales game, I'm not massively concerned about this game. I think we will win by 10 points. Having Furlong and Henderson back is a massive boost. Not that Porter or Toner/Ryan didn't perform against Wales...they did...but at the very least it strengthens our bench options.