Buildy-uppy thread: Ire vs Scot

MJohnston

I can't remember where I read it exactly, but someone made a great point that one of the direct ways the Premiership has affected the English national team is at the rucks - AP refs have constantly in rucks favoured the team who are attacking all season, so English players have learned to under-resource them, maybe 1 player to defend each one. Whereas in the Pro 14 the refs are much more matched to the way the Six Nations is being refereed, favouring the team who are defending/looking for a turnover - so players have learned to commit plenty to each one. I think that was really obvious against Scotland.

aloooof

MJohnston wrote: »

I can't remember where I read it exactly, but someone made a great point that one of the direct ways the Premiership has affected the English national team is at the rucks - AP refs have constantly in rucks favoured the team who are attacking all season, so English players have learned to under-resource them, maybe 1 player to defend each one. Whereas in the Pro 14 the refs are much more matched to the way the Six Nations is being refereed, favouring the team who are defending/looking for a turnover - so players have learned to commit plenty to each one. I think that was really obvious against Scotland.

I remember reading this as well, tho I believe the point was made more in relation to the Champions Cup fixtures between English and Pro14 teams. You'd have thought the England setup would have had enough time and prior warning to rectify this.

Sangre

aloooof wrote: »

I remember reading this as well, tho I believe the point was made more in relation to the Champions Cup fixtures between English and Pro14 teams. You'd have thought the England setup would have had enough time and prior warning to rectify this.

Yes, I'm not sure why Eddie Jones (who has not coached in AP in many years) would change his systems as a result of current reffing in the AP.

Shefwedfan

Scotland are sh*t away from home. Ireland will win.

Please close thread now and see you for the England build up thread :-)

aloooof

Sangre wrote: »

Yes, I'm not sure why Eddie Jones (who has not coached in AP in many years) would change his systems as a result of current reffing in the AP.

I never suggested he should change his systems as a result of current reffing in the AP. What he should be doing though is adapting his systems around any given match-day referee.

Given what I've read about the breakdown in the Scotland v England game, it's not surprising to me to read that Nigel Owens was the ref.

prawnsambo

Sangre wrote: »

Yes, I'm not sure why Eddie Jones (who has not coached in AP in many years) would change his systems as a result of current reffing in the AP.

Reffing in the Champion's Cup, not the AP. But I'm not sure why he'd ignore the opening fixtures in the 6N (if not the CC) where a lot more leeway was given to defending teams at the breakdown. Our match in Paris being a case in point, since Nigel was the ref there too.

Sangre

aloooof wrote: »

I never suggested he should change his systems as a result of current reffing in the AP. What he should be doing though is adapting his systems around any given match-day referee.

Given what I've read about the breakdown in the Scotland v England game, it's not surprising to me to read that Nigel Owens was the ref.

I didn't mean to imply you did. I was just following on that I didn't necessarily agree that reffing in CC/AP would impact way England play.

Interested Observer

I think we're going to strangle them and win comfortably enough. We won't stand off rucks like England did for example, we're a better team than Scotland imo and my only worry is we won't concentrate for the 80 mins as happened against Italy and Scotland.

Team as you were with Ringrose at 13, Henderson and Furlong to come back in it fit, and might as well put Larmour back on the bench because if McFadden is going to come on and make defensive mistakes as he did then there's no point in him being there. If Conway is fit then Conway over both of them.

cameramonkey

razorblunt wrote: »

I'm really apprehensive about this.
I think Best will really need to be vocal too if both Gray brothers start as they'll just flop all over rucks and ensure the Scots have all day back there.

If the Scots flop all over the rucks they will get a hammering.

Wayne Barnes loves punishing often and early at the rucks. He would love to dish out multiple penalties.

Wayne Barnes is not my favorite ref. We have not lost to Wales in the 6 nations for about 7 years except when Barnes was the ref.

It was lucky for us that he is in charge of this one rather than our match against against Wales.

prawnsambo

cameramonkey wrote: »

If the Scots flop all over the rucks they will get a hammering.

Wayne Barnes loves punishing often and early at the rucks. He would love to dish out multiple penalties.

Wayne Barnes is not my favorite ref. We have not lost to Wales in the 6 nations for about 7 years except when Barnes was the ref.

It was lucky for us that he is in charge of this one rather than our match against against Wales.

That's way ott. Barnes is actually the guy who gives clear instructions these days and goes out of his way to praise quick response to his commands. You often hear him saying "Good discipline" and other such encouragement to players who react quickly. He (quite rightly) gets annoyed if he isn't heeded and will discipline accordingly.

He's strict, but gives players the chance to stop infringing. He's not as laissez-faire as Nigel is these days.

Interested Observer

prawnsambo wrote: »

He's not as laissez-faire as Nigel is these days.

Nigel is just making it up as he goes along these days.

.ak

The thing is Scotland are not going to approach this game like they approached the England game. Like most teams at top level there will be a huge amount of research done on the oppo. They did their homework on England, recognised they only commit one player to offensive rucks and they attacked them there and did a number on them.

For my money I think if Scotland are clever, and Townsend is no mug, they’ll be looking very, very closely at the France and Wales games against us. Where did they get their most change from us?
Well both teams needed to make a vast amount of tackles, and both teams scored with little or no possession or territory. Both teams ran us dangerously close.

Scotland won’t target the breakdown. They’ll fan out and trust their defence to soak up the pressure and rely on their patience to wait for counter attack opportunities.

We’ve got to be very, very cute with the ball. Will we see many more strings to our attack? I think a little, but don’t expect anything flashy, think we’ll see some screen plays and loops to force the Scots to come up a little flat, add some clever kicking and we could see the Scots losing their shape. We’ve got to be patient with the ball tho.

bilston

There is some crazy overreaction about Stockdale's defence. Yes he was caught out for the second Welsh try last week, but what's interesting is that everyone who has played on the wing in the Championship this year has found themselves in the same position at least once, where they shoot out and get isolated. There was an incident where Earls did the same thing but it didn't end in a try, McFadden got caught out against Wales and Larmour did it against Italy. So the question is whether it's down to the individuals or the system? Or a bit of both.

I can see a myth evolving now about Stockdale's defence. A bit like Tommy Bowe having a lack of pace.

NinetyTwoTeam

Scotland won their championship last match. Ireland will hammer them at home. Someone said 'dont go for the bonus point just grind out the win' lol if you get the bonus point the title could be wrapped up before going to Twickenham, pretty sure that's what they'll want to do.

People overreacting to Scotland's win big time, long as Sexton has a better game kicking and i think he will and Ireland win by double digits IMO.

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

There is some crazy overreaction about Stockdale's defence. Yes he was caught out for the second Welsh try last week, but what's interesting is that everyone who has played on the wing in the Championship this year has found themselves in the same position at least once, where they shoot out and get isolated.

Where?

Have seen it commented on, but usually tempered by the acknowledgment that the errors occurred further infield and Stockdale was the lad left holding the baby. The worse thing that could be said of him is that he made the wrong decision. But at least he made one.

A propos of nothing, I love to see the lad play. He always has a smile on his face. Be a shame to lose that.

[Deleted User]

prawnsambo wrote: »

Where?

Have seen it commented on, but usually tempered by the acknowledgment that the errors occurred further infield and Stockdale was the lad left holding the baby. The worse thing that could be said of him is that he made the wrong decision. But at least he made one.

A propos of nothing, I love to see the lad play. He always has a smile on his face. Be a shame to lose that.

Actually much of the criticism is that he gets caught flat, hence making no decision being exactly what he was criticised for ha ha!

He'll learn, it's definitely a weakness for him but he'll get there. I don't think any of the commentary has been over the top. I think any risk of him dropping out for a more defensive oriented winger were dispelled when he put 2 tries on Wales. None of the alternatives showed up particularly well against Italy either.

connemara man

prawnsambo wrote: »

Where?

Have seen it commented on, but usually tempered by the acknowledgment that the errors occurred further infield and Stockdale was the lad left holding the baby. The worse thing that could be said of him is that he made the wrong decision. But at least he made one.

A propos of nothing, I love to see the lad play. He always has a smile on his face. Be a shame to lose that.

The hard yards were talking about him and his defence in particular and said Ireland might be better off starting Mcfadden

swiwi_

Leaving the hapless Italians aside, when was the last time Scotland achieved an away 6N victory? Think Ireland will win comfortably enough.

bilston

prawnsambo wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

There is some crazy overreaction about Stockdale's defence. Yes he was caught out for the second Welsh try last week, but what's interesting is that everyone who has played on the wing in the Championship this year has found themselves in the same position at least once, where they shoot out and get isolated.

Where?

Have seen it commented on, but usually tempered by the acknowledgment that the errors occurred further infield and Stockdale was the lad left holding the baby. The worse thing that could be said of him is that he made the wrong decision. But at least he made one.

A propos of nothing, I love to see the lad play. He always has a smile on his face. Be a shame to lose that.

At least two posters on this thread (admittedly one of them is TROL) have said he should be dropped and replaced by McFadden.

bilston

swiwi_ wrote: »

Leaving the hapless Italians aside, when was the last time Scotland achieved an away 6N victory? Think Ireland will win comfortably enough.

So do I. I was worried about the Wales game, I'm not massively concerned about this game. I think we will win by 10 points. Having Furlong and Henderson back is a massive boost. Not that Porter or Toner/Ryan didn't perform against Wales...they did...but at the very least it strengthens our bench options.

Buer

bilston wrote: »

I can see a myth evolving now about Stockdale's defence. A bit like Tommy Bowe having a lack of pace.

Whether it's a matter of confidence or of experience, there's definitely something wrong with his defence and it goes beyond one try against the Welsh.

The first time most noted it was when he was roasted several times against Leinster. He wasn't great against France and there were two tries against Wales where he needed to do better.

He should be persisted with as he's obviously someone with huge talent but I would hope his defence is something being worked on with his various coaches.

prawnsambo

.ak wrote: »

The thing is Scotland are not going to approach this game like they approached the England game. Like most teams at top level there will be a huge amount of research done on the oppo. They did their homework on England, recognised they only commit one player to offensive rucks and they attacked them there and did a number on them.

For my money I think if Scotland are clever, and Townsend is no mug, they’ll be looking very, very closely at the France and Wales games against us. Where did they get their most change from us?
Well both teams needed to make a vast amount of tackles, and both teams scored with little or no possession or territory. Both teams ran us dangerously close.

Scotland won’t target the breakdown. They’ll fan out and trust their defence to soak up the pressure and rely on their patience to wait for counter attack opportunities.

We’ve got to be very, very cute with the ball. Will we see many more strings to our attack? I think a little, but don’t expect anything flashy, think we’ll see some screen plays and loops to force the Scots to come up a little flat, add some clever kicking and we could see the Scots losing their shape. We’ve got to be patient with the ball tho.

I'm not sure Scotland won't continue to target the breakdown. Our biggest strength has been to be miserly with possession, and there's only one way to stop that. They'd also believe that it's a strength of theirs (not without basis obvs.), so they'd be unlikely to not bring it to the table.

Also turnover ball is their bread and butter for scores. Can't see it tbh.

Interested Observer

swiwi_ wrote: »

Leaving the hapless Italians aside, when was the last time Scotland achieved an away 6N victory? Think Ireland will win comfortably enough.

It was in 2010 against Ireland.

bilston

Buer wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

I can see a myth evolving now about Stockdale's defence. A bit like Tommy Bowe having a lack of pace.

Whether it's a matter of confidence or of experience, there's definitely something wrong with his defence and it goes beyond one try against the Welsh.

The first time most noted it was when he was roasted several times against Leinster. He wasn't great against France and there were two tries against Wales where he needed to do better.

He should be persisted with as he's obviously someone with huge talent but I would hope his defence is something being worked on with his various coaches.

Where exactly was he poor against France? I know people attempted to blame him for the Thomas try but really he was very much at the end of the scale for that, similar the Davies try last week, no matter what he did Wales were scoring there.

He clearly has work ons but I repeat, every Irish winger has been exposed at some point or another, yet the focus is on Stockdale, I guess it's to be expected that when a special young talent emerges we look to put them down again. We see it a bit with Larmour too. Yeah he can get better, but talk of dropping him for McFadden is just stupid.

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

Where exactly was he poor against France? I know people attempted to blame him for the Thomas try but really he was very much at the end of the scale for that, similar the Davies try last week, no matter what he did Wales were scoring there.

He clearly has work ons but I repeat, every Irish winger has been exposed at some point or another, yet the focus is on Stockdale, I guess it's to be expected that when a special young talent emerges we look to put them down again. We see it a bit with Larmour too. Yeah he can get better, but talk of dropping him for McFadden is just stupid.

It's always the same when a winger or a full back misses a tackle in a one on one with open ground all around them.

I always look at that from the other perspective and would lambast the attacker in that situation if they got tackled.

stephen_n

bilston wrote: »

.

I can see a myth evolving now about Stockdale's defence. A bit like Tommy Bowe having a lack of pace.

When a team gets hit out wide like we have, it automatically becomes the winger or the full backs fault. When the reality is, it usually happens far inside them. Dave Kearney gained the reputation of being a bad defender based on one game. I think Ringrose may be a positive for Stockdale in an organizational sense.

Former Former

The problem for Stockdale is that we only have a very small sample size to judge him on and unfortunately he's had some bad defensive misses in recent games.

Shane Horgan had a really good analysis of it last week and it all sounds very fixable so don't think it will be an issue for long.

MJohnston

Stockdale's main problem for progressing his defense work is probably the fact that he's an Ulster player

The Lost Sheep

MJohnston wrote: »

I can't remember where I read it exactly, but someone made a great point that one of the direct ways the Premiership has affected the English national team is at the rucks - AP refs have constantly in rucks favoured the team who are attacking all season, so English players have learned to under-resource them, maybe 1 player to defend each one. Whereas in the Pro 14 the refs are much more matched to the way the Six Nations is being refereed, favouring the team who are defending/looking for a turnover - so players have learned to commit plenty to each one. I think that was really obvious against Scotland.

I dont think that is the case. The AP refs do have slight differences to Pro14 refs but there is quite a few differences to how Irish refs officiate at ruck to the welsh/scottish as well so it isnt really the pro14 being more matched to how 6 nations is refereed.

cameramonkey wrote: »

If the Scots flop all over the rucks they will get a hammering.

Wayne Barnes loves punishing often and early at the rucks. He would love to dish out multiple penalties.

Wayne Barnes is not my favorite ref. We have not lost to Wales in the 6 nations for about 7 years except when Barnes was the ref.

It was lucky for us that he is in charge of this one rather than our match against against Wales.

Barnes does penalise early at ruck but dont agree at all about your point about Wales. We have lost those games for many other reasons and nothing to do with Barnes as ref

prawnsambo wrote: »

That's way ott. Barnes is actually the guy who gives clear instructions these days and goes out of his way to praise quick response to his commands. You often hear him saying "Good discipline" and other such encouragement to players who react quickly. He (quite rightly) gets annoyed if he isn't heeded and will discipline accordingly.

He's strict, but gives players the chance to stop infringing. He's not as laissez-faire as Nigel is these days.

Barnes has always been like that. Refs very strictly and if you dont follow his interpretation he ups sanction quite quickyl.

typhoony

swiwi_ wrote: »

Leaving the hapless Italians aside, when was the last time Scotland achieved an away 6N victory? Think Ireland will win comfortably enough.

while we seem to be losing players Scotland have several players returning from injury, I remember the game in Croke Park where we supposed to win easily and they turned us over. we could do with Seymour not recovering from injury.