New Worldwide Handicap System

prawnsambo

slingerz wrote: »

The line that they hoped people would visibility of their handicap indexes before then was optimistic to say the least

That's down to the clubs to be fair. We've had access since last Thursday. Unbelievably, a lot of clubs haven't even logged in as of today.

Seve OB

prawnsambo wrote: »

That's down to the clubs to be fair. We've had access since last Thursday. Unbelievably, a lot of clubs haven't even logged in as of today.

you are doing a lot of sticking up for the GUI of late

prawnsambo

Seve OB wrote: »

you are doing a lot of sticking up for the GUI of late

Not really. I've been extremely critical of their handling of the lockdowns, especially during the first one. And how they communicated this one. But having dealt with large data migrations, I have some understanding of the difficulty they are facing with this one. People on here are the minority when it comes to engaging with the GUI systems. My experience is that most golfers just ignore it and many have never even logged into GolfNet. And now it seems some clubs haven't even bothered (a week later) to engage with the new system. People are very quick to blame the GUI for errors, but so far going by mine and others' experiences, those errors come back to the club systems. But if you can't understand nuance, then by all means box me into the section labelled 'GUI apologist'.:rolleyes:

slingerz

prawnsambo wrote: »

Not really. I've been extremely critical of their handling of the lockdowns, especially during the first one. And how they communicated this one. But having dealt with large data migrations, I have some understanding of the difficulty they are facing with this one. People on here are the minority when it comes to engaging with the GUI systems. My experience is that most golfers just ignore it and many have never even logged into GolfNet. And now it seems some clubs haven't even bothered (a week later) to engage with the new system. People are very quick to blame the GUI for errors, but so far going by mine and others' experiences, those errors come back to the club systems. But if you can't understand nuance, then by all means box me into the section labelled 'GUI apologist'.:rolleyes:

Dealing with a large data migration is not a simple process granted but this has been signposted from well out. The date has been known well in advance and it’s bad management to sail so close to the wind

I understand about clubs not loging in but you’d have to wonder why they are so apathetic to the whole situation? Those I’ve spoken with are bewildered with the complexity of the calculations involved.

The migration could have been better managed with more communication about the change over. There was notices in recent times but they should have been a case where your HI was available in parallel with the CONGU system.

It is literally now a case of have a go at it when we get back and see what happens

T453

Will no-returns from the past be included in your last 20 scores or will they just look at your last 20 qualifying scores entered on golfnet

I can confirm there is no truth in the rumour that the GUI asked the Government to lock down the courses to buy them time to get the issues with the transition to the new system resolved

Mantis Toboggan

slingerz wrote: »

Dealing with a large data migration is not a simple process granted but this has been signposted from well out. The date has been known well in advance and it’s bad management to sail so close to the wind

I understand about clubs not loging in but you’d have to wonder why they are so apathetic to the whole situation? Those I’ve spoken with are bewildered with the complexity of the calculations involved.

The migration could have been better managed with more communication about the change over. There was notices in recent times but they should have been a case where your HI was available in parallel with the CONGU system.

It is literally now a case of have a go at it when we get back and see what happens

Would agree with this, we should have had our handicap indexes from the start of October to alow people to see how it works while still using the Congu system. The GUI are blessed that golf courses are currently closed.

prawnsambo

slingerz wrote: »

Dealing with a large data migration is not a simple process granted but this has been signposted from well out. The date has been known well in advance and it’s bad management to sail so close to the wind

I agree that it's tight alright. But I'm not sure I'd have done it any differently myself seeing as England Golf were first in the queue and because their numbers would be so much higher than ours, would tease out any systems issues first.

slingerz wrote: »

I understand about clubs not loging in but you’d have to wonder why they are so apathetic to the whole situation? Those I’ve spoken with are bewildered with the complexity of the calculations involved.

Again (as you say) the system has been signposted from well out. We've had a thread running on the subject from last year and the basis for calculation and other factors were well established and explained on here and most of that was taken from the resources that were published (also well in advance). Not to put too fine a point on it, but if people are bewildered now, they only have themselves to blame imo. And it's not as though they have to run highly complex calculations. Just check that the data has been imported correctly. Members all accounted for, no comps missing and the right tees used. That's about it.

slingerz wrote: »

The migration could have been better managed with more communication about the change over. There was notices in recent times but they should have been a case where your HI was available in parallel with the CONGU system.

What specifically was missing from communication? As I said above, we've all known how the system was to operate and the date when it would come into effect from a long time out. There were seminars (pre-covid) for handicap secretaries and committees on how it would operate. But again, people are forgetting that this system was developed for all the CONGU countries (bar Scotland), not just us. England Golf got it rolled out literally a week or two before us.

slingerz wrote: »

It is literally now a case of have a go at it when we get back and see what happens

It is literally not that. November 2nd was chosen for a reason. Competitions and scores are generally non-qualifying after that date, so any teething issues can be sorted without causing any major problems.

PabloAndRoy

Exactly wrote: »

I can confirm there is no truth in the rumour that the GUI asked the Government to lock down the courses to buy them time to get the issues with the transition to the new system resolved

I don't think anyone really believed that.

slingerz

prawnsambo wrote: »

I agree that it's tight alright. But I'm not sure I'd have done it any differently myself seeing as England Golf were first in the queue and because their numbers would be so much higher than ours, would tease out any systems issues first.

Again (as you say) the system has been signposted from well out. We've had a thread running on the subject from last year and the basis for calculation and other factors were well established and explained on here and most of that was taken from the resources that were published (also well in advance). Not to put too fine a point on it, but if people are bewildered now, they only have themselves to blame imo. And it's not as though they have to run highly complex calculations. Just check that the data has been imported correctly. Members all accounted for, no comps missing and the right tees used. That's about it.

What specifically was missing from communication? As I said above, we've all known how the system was to operate and the date when it would come into effect from a long time out. There were seminars (pre-covid) for handicap secretaries and committees on how it would operate. But again, people are forgetting that this system was developed for all the CONGU countries (bar Scotland), not just us. England Golf got it rolled out literally a week or two before us.

It is literally not that. November 2nd was chosen for a reason. Competitions and scores are generally non-qualifying after that date, so any teething issues can be sorted without causing any major problems.

We can’t compared to Boards users to the general golf population. The communication to the vast majority of club members left an awful lot to be desired. So people being bewildered by it is more than justified. There are also numerous posts over the thread stretching back calling for information, communications anything from the GUI but nothing was forthcoming

In all migration projects I’ve ever worked it they have conducted them in parallel. That is what makes the November 2 date folly. Should have had planning to run in parallel since June IMO. Now it will be a case of courses open and confusion will reign as to what handicap you are supposed to be playing off of!

Similarly, they are saying your interclub mark will be based on your handicap index on 01 January 2021. But they have no idea of the handicap bands to be employed should they need to be changed. That highlights further the lack of preparation and planning that has followed this project

prawnsambo

slingerz wrote: »

We can’t compared to Boards users to the general golf population. The communication to the vast majority of club members left an awful lot to be desired. So people being bewildered by it is more than justified. There are also numerous posts over the thread stretching back calling for information, communications anything from the GUI but nothing was forthcoming

Club member seminars were scheduled for March/April/May. We all know what happened then. And I'm not comparing boards users to the general golf population. I'm saying that the resources that we used to discuss this on boards were available to all, not just boards. And I asked before, but you haven't answered: What information specifically was not available?

slingerz wrote: »

In all migration projects I’ve ever worked it they have conducted them in parallel. That is what makes the November 2 date folly. Should have had planning to run in parallel since June IMO. Now it will be a case of courses open and confusion will reign as to what handicap you are supposed to be playing off of!

And as I have pointed out before, running in parallel with two completely different systems with completely different methods of calculation and equally different endpoints would be as useful as a chocolate fireguard. This isn't an accounting system. The confusion would be off the scale.

slingerz wrote: »

Similarly, they are saying your interclub mark will be based on your handicap index on 01 January 2021. But they have no idea of the handicap bands to be employed should they need to be changed. That highlights further the lack of preparation and planning that has followed this project

I don't see how that can be avoided though. Until all records are up to date and error-free, you can't make any predictions on how bands will work out. You could set those now and find that people who would have qualified for a particular comp, will not under the new system. Is this actually a problem right now? We don't even know if these competitions will actually be capable of being run in the current pandemic situation.

But again. Most if not all of your criticisms are across the board for all CONGU nations that are switching over.

blue note

I think we have to remember that the average boards user is far more interested in this than the average golfer. Most golfers are aware that this is happening and have barely given it a second though. I asked a few when out with people I didn't know and practically none of them had looked into it. Some were actually not aware it was happening.

For most golfers, it'll come in and the first time they'll deal with it is when they walk into the pro shop for their first competition under it. All they need to play that day is their playing handicap, the pro can briefly say this is your new handicap index, what handicap you have for the day will depend on course and tees and here it is. I just can't foresee huge issues when this comes in. Over time people will get an understanding of it. Remember, people have varying degrees of understanding of our current system and it's not a problem. It won't matter if people don't understand the new system. And they won't even care. After the initial shock for the odd person of getting a few shots back or losing a few, this system will be no more a talking point than the current system.

slingerz

prawnsambo wrote: »

Club member seminars were scheduled for March/April/May. We all know what happened then. And I'm not comparing boards users to the general golf population. I'm saying that the resources that we used to discuss this on boards were available to all, not just boards. And I asked before, but you haven't answered: What information specifically was not available?

And as I have pointed out before, running in parallel with two completely different systems with completely different methods of calculation and equally different endpoints would be as useful as a chocolate fireguard. This isn't an accounting system. The confusion would be off the scale.

I don't see how that can be avoided though. Until all records are up to date and error-free, you can't make any predictions on how bands will work out. You could set those now and find that people who would have qualified for a particular comp, will not under the new system. Is this actually a problem right now? We don't even know if these competitions will actually be capable of being run in the current pandemic situation.

But again. Most if not all of your criticisms are across the board for all CONGU nations that are switching over.

When running any project you over communicate rather than not at all. That’s a failure of the GUI end of. You can say it’s across the board for CONGU but we don’t have an interest in other nations

Running in parallel allows people to see, recognise how it works, observe how their scores impact etc. There is numerous benefits to running in parallel. Allied to the fact that we weren’t communicating then running in parallel would have been the correct approach

For the competitions, the GUI have access to all the records in advance so there is no reason they cannot have looked at the changes in advance and see what the impact of the changes are

blue note

slingerz wrote: »

When running any project you over communicate rather than not at all. That’s a failure of the GUI end of. You can say it’s across the board for CONGU but we don’t have an interest in other nations

Running in parallel allows people to see, recognise how it works, observe how their scores impact etc. There is numerous benefits to running in parallel. Allied to the fact that we weren’t communicating then running in parallel would have been the correct approach

For the competitions, the GUI have access to all the records in advance so there is no reason they cannot have looked at the changes in advance and see what the impact of the changes are

I've also been involved in quite a few system migrations. You choose who you communicate with. In one of the projects we moved 35k members from one system to another. We communicated with them at the end of the process when we were ready to go live. The new system was very different to the old both in how it looked and what went on in the background, but to be honest, individual members en masse reviewing it before it went live would have given us very little benefit for the hassle it would have caused. I think we're in the same boat. Too much interaction with all GUI members would not have been the right way to go. From the users point of view, it'll probably all become easy once you start using it. Trying to get them to understand it before than would have been far more hassle than it was worth.

And as regards running systems in parallel - sometimes that's the right way to go, sometimes it's not. I've rarely done that, but you'll always have a rollback option if you're not doing it. But it can be a lot of work and if your inputs into the new system are not compatible with the old it might not even be realistic.

To be honest, you seem to want a level of involvement of someone who was involved in the migration process. I don't know if running in parallel would have been right for this project, but I can't imagine it wasn't discussed. But I'm not going to proclaim they should have done it this way or that, because I wasn't involved to know what way they should have done it.

spacecoyote

All members in my place got a mail today with the handicap indexes and playing handicaps from the blue and white tees.

Got 9.3, had calculated 9.1 myself so seems in line with expectation. Playing handicap of 10 from whites and 11 from blues.

Current handicap is 10.3 so pretty much no change to start

Russman

blue note wrote: »

I think we have to remember that the average boards user is far more interested in this than the average golfer. Most golfers are aware that this is happening and have barely given it a second though. I asked a few when out with people I didn't know and practically none of them had looked into it. Some were actually not aware it was happening.

For most golfers, it'll come in and the first time they'll deal with it is when they walk into the pro shop for their first competition under it. All they need to play that day is their playing handicap, the pro can briefly say this is your new handicap index, what handicap you have for the day will depend on course and tees and here it is. I just can't foresee huge issues when this comes in. Over time people will get an understanding of it. Remember, people have varying degrees of understanding of our current system and it's not a problem. It won't matter if people don't understand the new system. And they won't even care. After the initial shock for the odd person of getting a few shots back or losing a few, this system will be no more a talking point than the current system.

I tend to agree with this.
It'll be learning as you go for the vast majority of golfers, and it will work out fine because its pretty much automated.
We recently had our AGM on Zoom and (this is isn't a criticism, just an observation) the amount of misunderstandings and misapprehensions was crazy. I think your average joe golfer doesn't realise how its a completely new system and not just the old one with a few tweaks.
I do think a big issue will be when you do a good score and don't know definitively that you broke CSS and will lose 0.4 or whatever off your handicap - guys seem to be really struggling to get their heads around that way of thinking, from what I've seen/heard. I know you don't know for sure now until the CSS is calculated, but lets be honest, CSS is almost always the same, so you've a fair idea.

The other thing is what happens if your Saturday (or even potentially Friday) play isn't closed off by the next morning, what do you play off. Presumably that's just an added task for clubs to ensure is covered.

It'll be the simple things that will cause issues, I think - you arrive and the wifi is down or the computer terminal is having the gremlins, stuff like that.

Seve OB

i know my club have been working tirelessly on this over the last couple of weeks and have communicated with us.
but their understanding seems to be that we will be given a login to the golfireland website to find out what our HI will be

notice on golfireland.ie saying that new website will launch on 2nd November at 4pm

good job there is no golf on Monday or we wouldn't know what to play off!!!!



how are your clubs rolling them out to you? is it a simple list of every member or what?

Poker Face

Seve OB wrote: »

i know my club have been working tirelessly on this over the last couple of weeks and have communicated with us.
but their understanding seems to be that we will be given a login to the golfireland website to find out what our HI will be

notice on golfireland.ie saying that new website will launch on 2nd November at 4pm

good job there is no golf on Monday or we wouldn't know what to play off!!!!



how are your clubs rolling them out to you? is it a simple list of every member or what?

Your login will be your GUI number and you will need the PIN code on the back of your GUI card as well

spacecoyote

Seve OB wrote: »

i know my club have been working tirelessly on this over the last couple of weeks and have communicated with us.
but their understanding seems to be that we will be given a login to the golfireland website to find out what our HI will be

notice on golfireland.ie saying that new website will launch on 2nd November at 4pm

good job there is no golf on Monday or we wouldn't know what to play off!!!!



how are your clubs rolling them out to you? is it a simple list of every member or what?

We got a pdf giving the full member list per the email today

kennethrhcp

spacecoyote wrote: »

We got a pdf giving the full member list per the email today

many changes that you spotted compared to the old handicaps?

Poker Face

spacecoyote wrote: »

All members in my place got a mail today with the handicap indexes and playing handicaps from the blue and white tees.

Got 9.3, had calculated 9.1 myself so seems in line with expectation. Playing handicap of 10 from whites and 11 from blues.

Current handicap is 10.3 so pretty much no change to start

Just in case you have played since 4th Oct no scores have been added to the new system since beginning of Oct so you could see a slight change to your Handicap Index come Monday. These scores are due to be uploaded on Sunday.

gypsy79

Poker Face wrote: »

Just in case you have played since 4th Oct no scores have been added to the new system since beginning of Oct so you could see a slight change to your Handicap Index come Monday. These scores are due to be uploaded on Sunday.

The version I got was up till September 24th

18 on both systems

spacecoyote

Poker Face wrote: »

Just in case you have played since 4th Oct no scores have been added to the new system since beginning of Oct so you could see a slight change to your Handicap Index come Monday. These scores are due to be uploaded on Sunday.

I wish I'd played since 4th Oct

prawnsambo

Poker Face wrote: »

Just in case you have played since 4th Oct no scores have been added to the new system since beginning of Oct so you could see a slight change to your Handicap Index come Monday. These scores are due to be uploaded on Sunday.

They've also been adding in a PCC over the last week. That may be completed now, but if it hasn't, it can change your handicap index. Usually downwards, but that depends on CSS being above par normally.

Again, worth noting that if you've lost your GUI card and haven't registered on GolfNet (a surprising number of people haven't), you will be able to get your PIN from your committee.

Seve OB

i had a load of unprocessed away scores sitting on my profile in golf net.
the had been processed
all now have been moved into the processed section
im guessing someone is working hard this weekend

Poker Face

prawnsambo wrote: »

They've also been adding in a PCC over the last week. That may be completed now, but if it hasn't, it can change your handicap index. Usually downwards, but that depends on CSS being above par normally.

Again, worth noting that if you've lost your GUI card and haven't registered on GolfNet (a surprising number of people haven't), you will be able to get your PIN from your committee.

Yeah I went down .2 when PCC was added. Can only see one thing happening at 4pm Monday if they go live and that is the site crashing with everyone trying to register.

slingerz

Poker Face wrote: »

Yeah I went down .2 when PCC was added. Can only see one thing happening at 4pm Monday if they go live and that is the site crashing with everyone trying to register.

I think you can be guaranteed that this will happen. Might as well wait till that night it try it

Golfgraffix

Anybody else seeing a difference between the Gui course handicap table and the one published on the R&A ?

Poker Face

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Anybody else seeing a difference between the Gui course handicap table and the one published on the R&A ?

have not compared them, will have a look tonight

the lawman

I went from 10.0 to 9.4 so I'm delighted, back down to single figures without lifting a club. Thanks WHS.