New Worldwide Handicap System

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

CONGU site states the below rules, but perhaps GUI have a local version?

7.0 – 9.9 = -1.0
10.0 or more = -2.0

That's correct according to the handbook that Golf Ireland sent out a couple of weeks ago.

Important to note that the 7.0 - 9.9 is the amount by which your score differential is less than your handicap index. Score differential is based on adjusted gross score (what we would call stableford adjusted currently) and factors in course rating, slope rating and playing conditions calculation.

And once noted, promptly forgotten because it's hellishly complicated.

Mantis Toboggan

We received our course and slope rating certificate today.
Would be nice to get handicap index in the next few weeks.

xgronkjabv6pcl

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

We received our course and slope rating certificate today.
Would be nice to get handicap index in the next few weeks.

Is it the same as the one on USGA or does it differ for any reason?

Mantis Toboggan

Adriel Uneven Backpack wrote: »

Is it the same as the one on USGA or does it differ for any reason?

Same.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

CONGU site states the below rules, but perhaps GUI have a local version?

7.0 – 9.9 = -1.0
10.0 or more = -2.0

So if someone goes out and has 44 points on a particular day they will be cut an extra shot automatically on top of the effect it has on their best 8 average. And 2 shots if they have 46 or above?

gypsy79

Deleted User wrote: »

So if someone goes out and has 44 points on a particular day they will be cut an extra shot automatically on top of the effect it has on their best 8 average. And 2 shots if they have 46 or above?

Yes, it only lasts 12 months

Exceptional Score Reduction
The new rule of Exceptional Score Reduction (ESR) replaces the current USGA Handicap System’s Section 10-3, which allowed a player’s Handicap Index to be reduced based on two low tournament score differentials over the previous 12 months. Below is a breakdown of the change:

New: When a player submits a score differential of at least 7.0 strokes lower below their Handicap Index, they will be subject to an ESR adjustment. The adjustment ranges from -1 if the score differential is 7.0-9.9 strokes below the current Handicap Index, or -2 if the score differential is 10.0 strokes below the current handicap index.

Old: Section 10-3 in the USGA Handicap System said that if a player submitted two T-scores within a 12-month period that were at least 3.0 strokes better than the Handicap Index, that player would be eligible for an automatic reduction, which was signified by the “R” next to the Handicap Index at each revision date.

Effect: This makes for a much simpler reduction process, and one that is much more in line with how the golfer is playing on a given date. In the USGA system, golfers would often begin to play worse yet be reduced due to those tournament rounds still being considered for up to one year. But in WHS, the adjustment is possible with every score posting, so if it were to occur, it is much more straightforward and intuitive. Additionally, all scores posted by a golfer are eligible for ESR, whereas in the current system just T-scores were considered as a part of the formula for adjustment.

Russman

Jeez, there's going to be an awful lot to think about on the back nine under this new system...........:D:D:D

DuckSlice

The current system was very punishing. One of my buddies had 1 great score(44pts) and one good score (40pts) or something like that and he got cut 3 shots if I remember rightly. And he never played to it maybe once.

GreeBo

etxp wrote: »

The current system was very punishing. One of my buddies had 1 great score(44pts) and one good score (40pts) or something like that and he got cut 3 shots if I remember rightly. And he never played to it maybe once.

Well by definition he played to it and better at least twice

GreeBo

I think people (not necessarily on this thread!) are getting carried away with how complicated this is.
Unless you are trying to manage/manipulate your handicap it makes no difference to you.

DuckSlice

GreeBo wrote: »

Well by definition he played to it and better at least twice

Yes he did, but he didn't for a long time after. He had like 10/11 0.1's in a row then a half decent score of 40 which meant he got cut by 0.2. CSS for my club is usually 39pts.

also the 44pts he had under the new system would be 39 points as it was a much easier course. the slope is down at 98 or something like that.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

So if someone goes out and has 44 points on a particular day they will be cut an extra shot automatically on top of the effect it has on their best 8 average. And 2 shots if they have 46 or above?

It's not a direct correlation to points scored.

Say you have 44 points from a handicap index of 14.5 on a par 72 course with no scratches. Assume also that there is no playing conditions calculation (a bit like CSS) for the day. The course rating is 71.3, the slope rating is 128, so your playing handicap (strokes received) is 95% of 14.5 * 128/113 = 15.

Your adjusted (no adjustment because no scratches) gross score is 79. Your scoring differential is 79 - 71.3 * (113/128) = 6.8, so no ESR.

Basically, if you want to avoid an ESR you'll have to bring a calculator with you on your round.

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

I think people (not necessarily on this thread!) are getting carried away with how complicated this is.
Unless you are trying to manage/manipulate your handicap it makes no difference to you.

This exactly ^

I had hoped to develop a good understanding of it, but I think that will evolve over time rather than by reading and learning all the terminology.
For the moment I've decided the computer will spit out a number for me on 2nd November, and it is what it is. I suspect the vast majority of club golfers will be the same, with probably a few complaints that "they got cut" when the new system came in.

When I plugged my scores into the calculator linked several pages back, my predicted handicap for Nov reduced by 0.4 over the weekend because of two very average rounds of 36pts & 34pts. Meh, what will be will be. I think its going to be so sensitive to changes and so current that it will dissuade the casual manipulator and only the hard core ones will remain !

Russman

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not a direct correlation to points scored.

Say you have 44 points from a handicap index of 14.5 on a par 72 course with no scratches. Assume also that there is no playing conditions calculation (a bit like CSS) for the day. The course rating is 71.3, the slope rating is 128, so your playing handicap (strokes received) is 95% of 14.5 * 128/113 = 15.

Your adjusted (no adjustment because no scratches) gross score is 79. Your scoring differential is 79 - 71.3 * (113/128) = 6.8, so no ESR.

Basically, if you want to avoid an ESR you'll have to bring a calculator with you on your round.

And maybe even if you want to GET an ESR :D

Actually joking aside, would it be fair to say that one of the biggest differences we'll see in real world use is that, at the moment you know when the results and CSS are posted, what you got cut (or not), whereas under the new system you'll have to wait til you log in next time you play to find out what your index has changed to ? Assuming you don't have that calculator handy !

Seve OB

etxp wrote: »

YCSS for my club is usually 39pts.

can never understand how a club has such a high CSS all the time.

if it is an easy course, by default the members handicaps would be lower, thus meaning scoring would be lower and the CSS would in turn be lower.

prawnsambo

Russman wrote: »

And maybe even if you want to GET an ESR :D

Actually joking aside, would it be fair to say that one of the biggest differences we'll see in real world use is that, at the moment you know when the results and CSS are posted, what you got cut (or not), whereas under the new system you'll have to wait til you log in next time you play to find out what your index has changed to ? Assuming you don't have that calculator handy !

Yeah, it's going to be complicated. Which means people playing on subsequent days could be in trouble with rule 3.3c if they can't estimate their likely handicap change. Which is why I suspect that there is a strong emphasis in the rules that scores be submitted to the CDH every night regardless of comps being closed or not.

Seve OB

etxp wrote: »

The current system was very punishing. One of my buddies had 1 great score(44pts) and one good score (40pts) or something like that and he got cut 3 shots if I remember rightly. And he never played to it maybe once.

there is nothing punishing about that. he deserved the cuts for shooting good scores.

ive been a fairly consistent 12 over the last few years. went as far at 12.6 recently. stuck 2 good rounds together 39 & 40 and was cut 3.1 shots. don't think i've broken 32 since that in about 10 games (not all singles/counting)

at 9.9 now and all i can think about is getting another good score to get the next cut.

DuckSlice

Seve OB wrote: »

there is nothing punishing about that. he deserved the cuts for shooting good scores.

ive been a fairly consistent 12 over the last few years. went as far at 12.6 recently. stuck 2 good rounds together 39 & 40 and was cut 3.1 shots. don't think i've broken 32 since that in about 10 games (not all singles/counting)

at 9.9 now and all i can think about is getting another good score to get the next cut.

Maybe im looking at it wrong, I say it was punishing as he could never play to it. Maybe mentally he just couldn't have going from 10 to 7 in one go.

Yea I don't know what it is but it always seems to be 39, maybe 38 sometimes.
I have had a very good year of golf. 2 x 38pts, 2x39pts 1x42pts this year in comps and I have been cut a total of 1.0 this year.

I'm the same as you I want to get down, but you need to shoot 40 plus in my place to start getting cut. the new system has me down at 8.9, currently 9.7.

Russman

etxp wrote: »

Maybe im looking at it wrong, I say it was punishing as he could never play to it. Maybe mentally he just couldn't have going from 10 to 7 in one go.

Yea I don't know what it is but it always seems to be 39, maybe 38 sometimes.
I have had a very good year of golf. 2 x 38pts, 2x39pts 1x42pts this year in comps and I have been cut a total of 1.0 this year.

I'm the same as you I want to get down, but you need to shoot 40 plus in my place to start getting cut. the new system has me down at 8.9, currently 9.7.

Rightly or wrongly, that’s pretty much exactly what the current system is designed to do. You’re supposed to have to play your best (or pretty close to it) to play to your handicap. I think there’s a stat to the effect that you only play to your handicap once every seven rounds or something.

DuckSlice

I don't agree with you on that. Your handicap should be your average surely. Does it say it anywhere in the handicap regs that you have to play very well to beat your handicap? I've played to my handicap or better probably 60% of the rounds I have played this year, so i have the wrong handicap?

Russman

etxp wrote: »

I don't agree with you on that. Your handicap should be your average surely. Does it say it anywhere in the handicap regs that you have to play very well to beat your handicap? I've played to my handicap or better probably 60% of the rounds I have played this year, so i have the wrong handicap?

Afaik it does say it somewhere in the regs or the FAQs, I’ll try to dig it out. Think it was posted on one of the many previous threads on handicaps and bandits.
The theory is that your handicap currently is supposed to be a measure of your potential.
Yes, the system might well argue that you do have the wrong handicap. But if you’re getting cut along the way, there will come a time when you stop playing to the handicap and in fact have to play very well to get another cut. It’s the only logical way it can work if you think about it - you lose shots at a greater rate than get them back ie you only get back 0.1 at a time so eventually you’ll hit the wall that you can’t really play to.

Seve OB

etxp wrote: »

Maybe im looking at it wrong, I say it was punishing as he could never play to it.

as your get better and lower, it is much harder to play to your handicap on a regular basis. i can't play to 10. in fact i've only ever shot better than +10 on my home course once, thats in 30 years of playing it, that was about a month ago, i shot +7. sure ive played easier courses and shot scores, but not a lot.

ultimately if you don't play a lot of golf and throw in some practice, than you are not going to play to your handicap and can't expect to. doesn't make it unfair.

etxp wrote: »

I don't agree with you on that. Your handicap should be your average surely.

nope.
and from what i can figure out, your handicap index on the new system won't actually be your average and not even your average of your best 8 by the time you throw in all the permutations and combinations. (stand to be corrected though )

Seve OB

Russman wrote: »

Jeez, there's going to be an awful lot to think about on the back nine under this new system...........:D:D:D

i was thinking about this.
if i am playing badly, i generally try and dig in on the back 9 and try and get myself in the buffer. say if on the 15th or so my score is so bad its a hopeless cause, i generally still try and get a few pars to finish, but sometimes tiredness kicks in, bad shots/golf get you down. you just want to finish. if you are outside the buffer, so what, it's .1 whatever way you look at it.

in the new system, it might not make a difference as it possibly won't be one of your better 8 rounds... but maybe it will. maybe it won't now, but maybe it will in a months time. if it is going to be a handicap round for now, you might try grind out the score. if it isn't maybe you will loose interest and just hack it around to get the game over and done. but maybe in a couple of weeks it kicks in as a good round and forms part of your handicap.

so you really have to concentrate and do your best in each round with this new system. in the old way, if a round was gone, it was gone. you weren't getting any worse if you kicked the ball home. now its not just the back 9, its every shot, every single shot counts, even the bad rounds, because at some stage, some of those bad rounds will most likely kick in and form part of your handicap calc

Mushy

Under the new system, are handicaps (as we traditionally know them, I think handicap index is correct new term) going to be same range? So say a person is off 14.6, they play off 15 in a comp. Are those ranges sticking, the x.6 to y.4?

I may have confused myself trying to put it in words

Seve OB

ia course with a slope rating of 133 and a rating of .4 above par
a course with a slope rating of 123 and a rating of .6 lower than par

is the first a more difficult course..... on paper?


interesting, because these are 2 courses i play a lot of, and while the first course is a good bit longer, and some may find it harder as a result, i find it quite forgiving and as i have a bit more length than most, i actually find it easier and shoot better scores around there...... that doesn't makes sense does it?

Seve OB

Mushy wrote: »

Under the new system, are handicaps (as we traditionally know them, I think handicap index is correct new term) going to be same range? So say a person is off 14.6, they play off 15 in a comp. Are those ranges sticking, the x.6 to y.4?

I may have confused myself trying to put it in words

its called rounding.
i think so, but not as simple as that. i think what you need to do is first you will take your exact handicap index and get your course handicap from some chart and then have to work out 95% of it. at that point you will round.

im sure i'll probably be corrected, but i don't think im far off the mark in simple terms

dan_ep82

Seve OB wrote: »

ia course with a slope rating of 133 and a rating of .4 above par
a course with a slope rating of 123 and a rating of .6 lower than par

is the first a more difficult course..... on paper?


interesting, because these are 2 courses i play a lot of, and while the first course is a good bit longer, and some may find it harder as a result, i find it quite forgiving and as i have a bit more length than most, i actually find it easier and shoot better scores around there...... that doesn't makes sense does it?

Listening to the woman on the Rick Shiels podcast a few weeks back she said look to the rating to determine difficulty.


The slope is how diffiicult it is for a bogey golfer ( the describe this as around 21hc)

willabur

potentially dumb question which may have already been asked and answered:

When the switch is flipped in november do you start off with your current handicap and subsequent rounds impact the calculation.

OR

when the switch is flipped does it bin your handicap and give you a calculation according to best 8 of previous 20 rounds?

dan_ep82

willabur wrote: »

potentially dumb question which may have already been asked and answered:

When the switch is flipped in november do you start off with your current handicap and subsequent rounds impact the calculation.

OR

when the switch is flipped does it bin your handicap and give you a calculation according to best 8 of previous 20 rounds?

Old HC is gone to be replaced with Handicap Index whether its the same, higher or lower.

Russman

Seve OB wrote: »

its called rounding.
i think so, but not as simple as that. i think what you need to do is first you will take your exact handicap index and get your course handicap from some chart and then have to work out 95% of it. at that point you will round.

im sure i'll probably be corrected, but i don't think im far off the mark in simple terms

I think this is the case alright.

Open to correction but I think it could work out that for a given player and course rating, their point where their playing handicap changes by a shot could be, say, an index of 16.1 versus 16.0 gives them a playing hc of 17 versus 16.
The old way of once you get to xx.5 you go up a shot won’t necessarily be the case.