Ireland 2040 Planning Framework & associated Investment Plan discussion [NO ROADS]

Topgear on Dave

As a cavan man I say............. LOL :pac::pac::pac:

But yes, not having a commuter line to Navan is a huge strategic miss.

CrabRevolution

roadmaster wrote: »

I am not sure where to post this so I put it hear since this thread is about the future.

Is Irish rail just having the craic and teasing the poor people of east Cavan/ south Monaghan be even talking about this?

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/12/22/4166911-kingscourt-trains-back-on-the-rails/

Just to add it says in the article the line will be maintained, I wish I new what they where going to maintain!

Even for the low standards of local journalism that's poor. Firstly it's a statement from a TD, which is utterly worthless by definition, and on top of that it's a "review" of the line. If I wanted a line like that reopened the last thing I'd want is a study/survey/review since it'd show just how hopeless a case it is. I'd be demanding they just build it with no planning.

Why would they need a passenger line to Navan anyway? Do large numbers of South Cavan/Monaghan people work in Navan? I find it hard to believe many people would drive to Kingscourt to get a train to Navan, especially considering it's pretty sparsely populated and there's minimal traffic on those roads. Or do they wan't an incredibly slow route all the way to Dublin?

Even as a Meath man I have to say this plan is just lunacy.

jhenno78

Good idea. Take a walk on the line, have a look around "yup, it's still there".

Really though, a rail line to Navan would be brilliant and maybe further too but certainly not in the direction of kingscourt.

I agree wholeheartedly with what others have said that we should be considering new alignments with for railways, not being tied to the old ones which are so unsuitable in so many ways.

While the word "greenway" can understandably be a dirty word to some rail enthusiasts, that really would be the best use for the kingscourt line and "reviewing" it would help preserve it for that.

gooddarts10

30m to be taken from the transport budget to help fund the overspend on the NCH

karma_coma

gooddarts10 wrote: »

30m to be taken from the transport budget to help fund the overspend on the NCH

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/0211/1028942-childrens-hospital/

Dats me

karma_coma wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2019/0211/1028942-childrens-hospital/

I wonder is there any chance that it will all be taken from roads

CatInABox

In other words, 60% of all the savings outside of the department of health. Transport, with the large number of capital projects, was always going to be hit harder than most.

hans aus dtschl

I know we all agree that the Children's hospital is badly needed, but some of us are still waiting for the intercity motorway network which began in 1983 to be completed.

Is it going too far to suggest that this announcement effectively amounts to a cut to national expenditure outside of Dublin, in order to facilitate the major construction expenditure within Dublin? I'll certainly be bearing it in mind during the upcoming election.

Peregrine

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Is it going too far to suggest that this announcement effectively amounts to a cut to national expenditure outside of Dublin, in order to facilitate the major construction expenditure within Dublin? I'll certainly be bearing it in mind during the upcoming election.

1. The transport budget includes Dublin and the rest of the country
2. The National Children's Hospital is for children in Dublin and the rest of the country

It's not just going too far, it just doesn't make any logical sense.

hans aus dtschl

Peregrine wrote: »

1. The transport budget includes Dublin and the rest of the country
2. The National Children's Hospital is for children in Dublin and the rest of the country

It's not just going too far, it just doesn't make any logical sense.

Some people are still going to be 5 hours journey from this hospital, and there's little to no discussion of resolving that. It's a €2bn injection into the local building trades followed by a sustained employment hub for valuable jobs thereafter.

We're constantly hearing about real Dublin problems, like the housing shortage and "Dublin's infrastructure at breaking point", but we simultaneously have a lack of really basic infrastructure in/to the other cities, making them a less attractive proposition for foreign companies to invest in. That's a lack of joined up thinking.

I realise that this will be just perceived as just another "thick country bumpkin doesn't understand". I do get that. But I also travel the country and there's still a lot of hurt going on, people in many places don't feel like the recession has ended. I know I'm not the only one looking at this project with a sense of wonder, knowing that more local projects at a fraction of the price of just the overruns are shelved indefinitely on cost basis alone.

bk

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Some people are still going to be 5 hours journey from this hospital, and there's little to no discussion of resolving that.

Not to defend the horrendous cost of the hospital. But logically speaking, Dublin * is absolutely the correct place to build a national hospital like this.

* Where in Dublin is a different story.

Dublin is in the middle of the country and it is very well connected. Motorways to every city in Ireland and rail links too. 60%+ of the population is less then an hour from it and 95% is within 2.5 hours drive of it.

No other place would give you such connectivity and such high population catchments.

It is unfortunate that places like Donegal and Kerry might be 5 hours away. But it certainly wouldn't make any sense to build a National Hospital there!

hans aus dtschl

bk wrote: »

Not to defend the horrendous cost of the hospital. But logically speaking, Dublin * is absolutely the correct place to build a national hospital like this.
No other place would give you such connectivity and such high population catchments.

I'd agree, and I'd say this was taken into account when choosing the location.

I think we all know that it needs to be built. And we probably all understand why it needs to continue ASAP now that ground has been broken, even despite the scale of the overruns.

I'm pointing out that the massive cost overrun of this project doesn't stop it from proceeding, but other projects which were previously approved with big benefit:cost ratios are shelved for well over a decade now, on cost basis alone, whereas this project was first formally justified in the McKinsey report of 2006.

CatInABox

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I'd agree, and I'd say this was taken into account when choosing the location.

I think we all know that it needs to be built. And we probably all understand why it needs to continue ASAP now that ground has been broken, even despite the scale of the overruns.

I'm pointing out that the massive cost overrun of this project doesn't stop it from proceeding, but other projects which were previously approved with big benefit:cost ratios are shelved for well over a decade now, on cost basis alone, whereas this project was first formally justified in the McKinsey report of 2006.

That's kind of the nature of the project though, it's a hospital for sick kids. When you're putting that up against a motorway project, or the Metrolink, then there's only going to be one winner. Particularly when doing nothing will result in children dying due to the state of the current hospitals

cgcsb

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I know we all agree that the Children's hospital is badly needed, but some of us are still waiting for the intercity motorway network which began in 1983 to be completed.

Is it going too far to suggest that this announcement effectively amounts to a cut to national expenditure outside of Dublin, in order to facilitate the major construction expenditure within Dublin? I'll certainly be bearing it in mind during the upcoming election.

WTF? are they gonna give kids the culchie test at the door and say, 'nah sorry kid, true blues only'. What a bonkers parochial statement.

CatInABox

Minister Donohoe has stated that capital projects will not be cut or delayed due to the hospital cost overrun, according to this report.

I'd say that there's still a massive question mark over everything, particularly as the money that they're talking about is only for this year. €50 million might not be much in the grand scheme of things, but the same again next year? And the year after that?

hans aus dtschl

We all know the National Children's Hospital is needed. You don't need to help me to understand how critical it is: it's critical. The only other alternatives are falling apart. And I'm lucky, because I'll live relatively near this new National Children's hospital.

But for instance I witnessed an ambulance with a siren on crawling along the N22 on Sunday evening. Those patients are a priority too.

We really struggle to find budgets for capital projects. There's an opportunity cost and I expect that more people are going to die on the N21, N22 etc as a result of the inability of politicians to tackle big capital project expenditure in a steady, predictable way. You guys might say "too bad". Fair enough, that's an opinion too, but it's not how I feel.

CatInABox

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

We all know the National Children's Hospital is needed. You don't need to help me to understand how critical it is: it's critical. The only other alternatives are falling apart. And I'm lucky, because I'll live relatively near this new National Children's hospital.

But for instance I witnessed an ambulance with a siren on crawling along the N22 on Sunday evening. Those patients are a priority too.

We really struggle to find budgets for capital projects. There's an opportunity cost and I expect that more people are going to die on the N21, N22 etc as a result of the inability of politicians to tackle big capital project expenditure in a steady, predictable way. You guys might say "too bad". Fair enough, that's an opinion too, but it's not how I feel.

Oh god no. The amount of people who are going to die from pollution in Dublin as a result of decades of public transport being seen as a hindrance rather than a solution should be a national emergency. It's not just down the country that has seen investment being delayed, cancelled, or blown on stupid stuff.

I've long banged the drum for investment all over Ireland, particularly Cork and Galway, as we'll get the most bang/buck in those two, but the idea that Dublin is some kind of investment king is very mistaken in my opinion.

cgcsb

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

We all know the National Children's Hospital is needed. You don't need to help me to understand how critical it is: it's critical. The only other alternatives are falling apart. And I'm lucky, because I'll live relatively near this new National Children's hospital.

But for instance I witnessed an ambulance with a siren on crawling along the N22 on Sunday evening. Those patients are a priority too.

We really struggle to find budgets for capital projects. There's an opportunity cost and I expect that more people are going to die on the N21, N22 etc as a result of the inability of politicians to tackle big capital project expenditure in a steady, predictable way. You guys might say "too bad". Fair enough, that's an opinion too, but it's not how I feel.

Per head Dubliners are way shorter on capital investment than in other regions.

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

Per head Dubliners are way shorter on capital investment than in other regions.

Unsurprising though as there are no major projects with planning permission that could be built right now in Dublin.

Come 2021/2 if Metrolink, BusConnects and DART Expansion are underway it'll shift that somewhat.

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

Unsurprising though as there are no major projects with planning permission that could be built right now in Dublin.

Come 2021/2 if Metrolink, BusConnects and DART Expansion are underway it'll shift that somewhat.

Well, if that happens and that statistic shifts to the other way around, it'll be long overdue after a century of 'ruralisation' policies and using Dublin as a cash cow. And if it does happen it'll be short lived because that spending on transport will drop to near 0 by 2030 under current plans and the metropolitan population will be about 2.5mil by then or more likely probably tipping 3mil by then

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

Unsurprising though as there are no major projects with planning permission that could be built right now in Dublin.

Come 2021/2 if Metrolink, BusConnects and DART Expansion are underway it'll shift that somewhat.

From what I can tell, there's little enough capital investment anywhere in the country at the moment, bar New Ross.

And I'd suspect the Dublin area is a high recipient of OpEx compared to the other regions too. And again that makes plenty of sense, just not within the context of the "Dublin is creaking at the seams" narrative: there are things that can be done to balance the economy, which would also benefit those living in Dublin, but the political will really isn't there at the moment.

There's just no real interest in capital expenditure.

I'd go further and say that if this latest cost estimate for the National Children's Hospital was known 5-10 years ago, then it might have been still on the shelf also.

hans aus dtschl

cgcsb wrote: »

Well, if that happens and that statistic shifts to the other way around, it'll be long overdue after a century of 'ruralisation' policies and using Dublin as a cash cow. And if it does happen it'll be short lived because that spending on transport will drop to near 0 by 2030 under current plans and the metropolitan population will be about 2.5mil by then or more likely probably tipping 3mil by then

Just to be pedantic, you're talking here about Dublin alone as a cash cow in comparison with the rest of the country which is "rural " but this isn't necessarily the case. A few of the other urban areas are economically viable also: Cork, Limerick, Galway.

CatInABox

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

There's just no real interest in capital expenditure.

In fairness, the Ireland 2040 plan is pretty good with capital expenditure across the country, and there does seem to be a desire to stick to it, at least with in Fine Gael. I'd hope that if there is a change in Government, then the next one stick with it, it's a good enough plan. It's not perfect, but better than the "no plan" that we've followed for the last 30 years.

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

From what I can tell, there's little enough capital investment anywhere in the country at the moment, bar New Ross.

And I'd suspect the Dublin area is a high recipient of OpEx compared to the other regions too. And again that makes plenty of sense, just not within the context of the "Dublin is creaking at the seams" narrative: there are things that can be done to balance the economy, which would also benefit those living in Dublin, but the political will really isn't there at the moment.

There's just no real interest in capital expenditure.

I'd go further and say that if this latest cost estimate for the National Children's Hospital was known 5-10 years ago, then it might have been still on the shelf also.

5 major road projects underway, M7 in Kildare, N25 New Ross, M11 Enniscorthy, Dunkettle & N4 in Sligo

There is no political will in this Government to dedicate much more than lip service to capital projects. The value of them is ignored.

lucernarian

marno21 wrote: »

5 major road projects underway, M7 in Kildare, N25 New Ross, M11 Enniscorthy, Dunkettle & N4 in Sligo

There is no political will in this Government to dedicate much more than lip service to capital projects. The value of them is ignored.

Absolutely, and some of us can remember the choices they made in 2011 onwards that have led us to a point of construction inflation with nothing but our ***** in our hands and a construction site in Naas and Dunkettle to show for it in terms of high CBA road projects. Or the great idea to cancel Metro North at a time when costs were heading towards 50% of original projections...

...to build a "cross-city luas" to a station not even across the canal cordon that's increased travel times for >50% of bus routes in Dublin (the main mitigation has been to hire more drivers to plug the gaps in route scheduled and reroute a small number of others)

Those were two defining moments of Leo's and FG's approach to transport funding in this country.

cgcsb

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Just to be pedantic, you're talking here about Dublin alone as a cash cow in comparison with the rest of the country which is "rural " but this isn't necessarily the case. A few of the other urban areas are economically viable also: Cork, Limerick, Galway.

Dublin the mid-east and the South West region are the net contributing regions. These are the regions being treated as cash cows since the state's foundation but Dublin obviously makes up the majority of it.