Ireland 2040 Planning Framework & associated Investment Plan discussion [NO ROADS]

Qrt

Are there tracks after M3 Parkway? I know the Navan-Drogheda line is operational.

CatInABox

Qrt wrote: »

Are there tracks after M3 Parkway? I know the Navan-Drogheda line is operational.

No, actually. I had thought that there was for some reason.

roadmaster

CatInABox wrote: »

No, actually. I had thought that there was for some reason.

On the trim link road off the M3 there appears to be what looks like an old railway line the way the fencing is set out. Ill try get a pic tomorrow

BonnieSituation

CatInABox wrote: »

No, actually. I had thought that there was for some reason.

The Route for the M3 cuts across the old route after Parkway. you can see it clearly on google Maps and from the road.

Qrt

roadmaster wrote: »

Ill try get a pic tomorrow

That would be much appreciated:)

CatInABox

roadmaster wrote: »

On the trim link road off the M3 there appears to be what looks like an old railway line the way the fencing is set out. Ill try get a pic tomorrow

Yeah, I found and followed the route on Google maps this morning, there's tracks there, but about half of it has been removed. Worse still is that there's been a fair amount of building on the lines, from farm sheds, to roads, all the way up to a housing estate.

Any study will most likely find that there'd need to be tons of CPO involved, or a new route. In that case, they'd probably cheap out on building a bridge over the M3 into Navan, so they'd probably make it a Park and Ride at one of the M3 roundabouts there.

marno21

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2018-07-10a.328

Reading this is a refreshing change from the days under Enda Kenny where capital investment, unless it related to the road from Dublin to Mayo, was seen as something advocated by a think tank under the supervision of Satan.

ncounties

I have seen in multiple locations related to Project 2040, the following:

In 2016, as part of the preparation of the Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2016–2035, the NTA conducted a cost benefit analysis of an extension of the Dunboyne/M3 Parkway line to Dunshaughlin and Navan

Does anyone know where I can find the results of this, or would I need to submit a FOI request. Have looked several places already.

PopePalpatine

Scroll down to page 54 of this report, they decided there wasn't enough demand for that extension.

Topgear on Dave

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Scroll down to page 54 of this report, they decided there wasn't enough demand for that extension.

Last time I was in Dunshaughlin there were houses being built to beat the band. :rolleyes:

ncounties

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Scroll down to page 54 of this report, they decided there wasn't enough demand for that extension.

Thanks for that! Fingers crossed there is still some hope with the following also stated in Project 2040:

The NTA is required to review its Greater Dublin Area Strategy before the end of 2021. This review will include a reappraisal of the project, taking into account the scale of new and planned development along the route and will allow for its consideration during the Mid-Term Review of the NDP in 2022.

With the rate of developments coming online there, it would be seem crazy not to put decent public transport links in now. I also read the station would have likely been at Dumree. When will we ever learn!?

Pete_Cavan

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Last time I was in Dunshaughlin there were houses being built to beat the band. :rolleyes:

Dunshaughlin is as well served by the existing M3 Parkway Station then it would be by any new station were the Navan line to reopen. The original track only served a couple of villages between Dunboyne and Navan and the route into Navan has been built on already.

Realistically, to bring a train service to Navan, you'd be better building a new route, serving Dunshaughlin, hugging the M3 with a new P&R around Gallows Cross and connecting to the Drogheda line to get into Navan. A new station could also be built around Johnstown/Kentstown Road to serve the big population on that side of the town. In truth, a new line will involve as much land acquisition and engineering works as trying to reopen the original line.

BonnieSituation

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Dunshaughlin is as well served by the existing M3 Parkway Station then it would be by any new station were the Navan line to reopen. The original track only served a couple of villages between Dunboyne and Navan and the route into Navan has been built on already.

Realistically, to bring a train service to Navan, you'd be better building a new route, serving Dunshaughlin, hugging the M3 with a new P&R around Gallows Cross and connecting to the Drogheda line to get into Navan. A new station could also be built around Johnstown/Kentstown Road to serve the big population on that side of the town. In truth, a new line will involve as much land acquisition and engineering works as trying to reopen the original line.

Well said.

This obsession with keeping or reopening old routes is a weird affliction.

We need rail, but we don't always need it where it was.

cgcsb

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well said.

This obsession with keeping or reopening old routes is a weird affliction.

We need rail, but we don't always need it where it was.

The same affliction gave us the WRC Ennis-Athenry route. I'm sure there are plenty of merits associated with connecting Limerick and Galway by rail, but exactly why that route had to be the same as a Victorian era railway that took a meandering route through floodplains that was never going to offer a competitive journey time is quite astounding.

roadmaster

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well said.

This obsession with keeping or reopening old routes is a weird affliction.

We need rail, but we don't always need it where it was.

The only problem there is do you want people to continue driving to Dublin rather than using public transit. I have no doubt a train from navan would do well . That report is for 2016 on so it means they probably started in 2013. The economy has changed dramatically since then . just compare the construction work being carried out in Ireland between 2015 & 2017.

Even look at dunshaughlin on one site alone Gem are building 800 houses @ an output of 100 units a year if they had more men they would increase that and that is only one of the developments in that area. In 3 years times you will not swing a cat in dunshaughlin with traffic jams due to the current building

Maybe be its time for a minor review of that report

CatInABox

roadmaster wrote: »

The only problem there is do you want people to continue driving to Dublin rather than using public transit. I have no doubt a train from navan would do well . That report is for 2016 on so it means they probably started in 2013. The economy has changed dramatically since then . just compare the construction work being carried out in Ireland between 2015 & 2017.

Even look at dunshaughlin on one site alone Gem are building 800 houses @ an output of 100 units a year if they had more men they would increase that and that is only one of the developments in that area. In 3 years times you will not swing a cat in dunshaughlin with traffic jams due to the current building

Maybe be its time for a minor review of that report

I don't think Bonnie has a problem with a rail line to Navan, I think they have a problem with reopening the old rail line, which won't properly serve the new population centres in the area.

roadmaster

CatInABox wrote: »

I don't think Bonnie has a problem with a rail line to Navan, I think he has a problem with reopening the old rail line, which won't properly serve the new population centres in the area.

i agree about old lines that are not needed but a line like pete_cavan suggested would be a good idea it would mainly be through open fields so no major challenges It could swing in around Johnstown with a new station and connect in to the drogheda line .It could then end with a p&r between Navan retail park and Tara mines and maybe even reopen the old station in the town. Again navan is going to be a wash with new houses for commuters in the comimng years

Qrt

roadmaster wrote: »

i agree about old lines that are not needed but a line like pete_cavan suggested would be a good idea it would mainly be through open fields so no major challenges It could swing in around Johnstown with a new station and connect in to the drogheda line .It could then end with a p&r between Navan retail park and Tara mines and maybe even reopen the old station in the town. Again navan is going to be a wash with new houses for commuters in the comimng years

Are they houses or houses and apartments? I hope Meath isn't going down the semi-detached-houses-everywhere route.

roadmaster

Qrt wrote: »

Are they houses or houses and apartments? I hope Meath isn't going down the semi-detached-houses-everywhere route.

Semi Ds in every direction

OneEightSeven

Qrt wrote: »

Are they houses or houses and apartments? I hope Meath isn't going down the semi-detached-houses-everywhere route.

Meath has always been like that. There's high demand for land here because of urban sprawl, the land is some of the most fertile soil in country and because of its proximity to Dublin. A 4 bedroom detached house with a large back garden sets you back +€500,000 here. There used to be a time when you could buy a plot of land in a housing estate (like this vacant one left undeveloped) and build your own home, but due to high demand for housing here, building 4 bedroom detached homes is expensive and beyond most people's price range, so that's why they build semis.

Australia, Canada and America on average have the largest homes in the world because land is much cheaper due to those countries being underpopulated. Ireland is a small island and land is a finite resource, so fast population growth puts a lot of stress on the price of land and since our fertility rates are below replacement level (they're actually their lowest point ever), our population growth is all down to immigration.

bk

OneEightSeven wrote: »

Meath has always been like that. There's high demand for land here because of urban sprawl, the land is some of the most fertile soil in country and because of its proximity to Dublin. A 4 bedroom detached house with a large back garden sets you back +€500,000 here. There used to be a time when you could buy a plot of land in a housing estate (like this vacant one left undeveloped) and build your own home, but due to high demand for housing here, building 4 bedroom detached homes is expensive and beyond most people's price range, so that's why they build semis.

I think the point of the folks above is that we should be building high density apartment buildings near train stations if we want people using public transport.

A sea of two bedroom homes of any type, semi-d or not is bad for public transport use and instead lends itself to people driving instead like you see in the US.

It is a very clear sign of very poor planning.

Qrt

bk wrote: »

I think the point of the folks above is that we should be building high density apartment buildings near train stations if we want people using public transport.

A sea of two bedroom homes of any type, semi-d or not is bad for public transport use and instead lends itself to people driving instead like you see in the US.

It is a very clear sign of very poor planning.

A brief look at Navan on myhome.ie is kinda making me a bit ill. I think the most ridiculous planning of late has been around terenure/templogue. They're building houses in an area that close to town! Insanity.

roadmaster

Qrt wrote: »

A brief look at Navan on myhome.ie is kinda making me a bit ill. I think the most ridiculous planning of late has been around terenure/templogue. They're building houses in an area that close to town! Insanity.

I wouldnt worry about that Meath generally makes people feel illðŸ˜

Harry Palmr

https://drcd.gov.ie/about/news-centre/press-releases/taoiseach-and-minister-ring-announce-first-successful-applicants-under-e1-billion-rural-regeneration-and-development-fund/

So then the first tranche of a billion euro over 10 years announced. I'm sure it'll make no difference whatsoever in the large scheme of things even if individual projects are worthy. It sure won't transform anything or stop the unstoppable move of people from the country to larger towns and cities. Indeed the whole thing is being badly oversold and should instead just be delivered without fuss or a level of trumpeting it cannot bear the weight of.

FreudianSlippers

That's really a paltry amount of money, but they can't even spend their annual allocation in the first year or the first 4 years?!

roadmaster

I am not sure where to post this so I put it hear since this thread is about the future.

Is Irish rail just having the craic and teasing the poor people of east Cavan/ south Monaghan be even talking about this?

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/12/22/4166911-kingscourt-trains-back-on-the-rails/

Just to add it says in the article the line will be maintained, I wish I new what they where going to maintain!

CatInABox

roadmaster wrote: »

I am not sure where to post this so I put it hear since this thread is about the future.

Is Irish rail just having the craic and teasing the poor people of east Cavan/ south Monaghan be even talking about this?

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/12/22/4166911-kingscourt-trains-back-on-the-rails/

Just to add it says in the article the line will be maintained, I wish I new what they where going to maintain!

I think it might be the kind of thing that I'd say to my kids at times: "I'll look into it for you", all while doing no such thing.

It could conceivably be done as part of a "M3 Parkway to Navan" extension, but even that is just a twinkle in the eye of a few planners at this stage.

cgcsb

Lol. We're inconceivably far from opening new rural rail services it's not even worth a mention. There'd have to be billions spent on the existing network before even extending to Navan becomes a thing. North of Navan? Ask for improved bus services.

roadmaster

The gas thing is the Meath chronicle does be leading with story’s of turning it in to a greenway and we get the Celt running story’s now and again of reopening it as a railway. They mention it being a benefit to gypsum the only problem is the rock they import comes through greenore so trains are no good to them

marno21

N3 dualling north of Kells would be far more beneficial especially given the HGV traffic up that way